Indian Special Forces

[rkhanna]

@rkhanna Here's a familiarisation phase photo from Mallet Strike 24

Actually I realised my original Comment was out of context to the Picture I was refering to.

What i meant was that the Americans will never operate with anyones elses weapons. A Familiarization Day to test out and feel out partner forces weapons is different from what i meant.

Also a NATO Joint Readiness or an OPFOR Exercise is also different THOUGH (rom what I have been told ) on big Manouevers the Americans tend to revert back to their own systems.

Generally Speaking the Americans demand Interoperability towards themselves - not the other way around.

Anyways - moot point

 

[rkhanna]

Suppresser is useful but even if we ignore rifle wearing out part cost and fact that under thermal/nvg suppressor is easily visible and it actually sparks so for our case i think a good muzzle device is sufficient

Optics can pick up the Soldier as well not just the Thermal Signature of the Suppressor. That being Said this is not a "New" Problem and yet Suppressors roam the battlefield I think there are a number of Thermal Covering/sleeves solutions available to reduce the glow as well.

A Suppressor adds many more benefits to a soldier and a Small Unit

 

[username unkown]

Optics can pick up the Soldier as well not just the Thermal Signature of the Suppressor. That being Said this is not a "New" Problem and yet Suppressors roam the battlefield

Ok then

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/OXtlES8F7Kg?si=eSf-osaFHnNc2pVd
I dont want to walk in mountains of kulgam with this glowing torch when pigs have thermals do you

Its not just that they glow in dark or give away your position suppressor are long , heavy and overexpensive and not to mention rifle wearing out faster so suppressor are great for dedicated ops for sf but for infantry its no go
Suppresser is again one of the reason I think xm7 is trash as std issue
In past thermal and nvg were only with nato and us so it didn't matter if they used suppressor or not but things are changing even in Ukraine both side have very limited night fighting capability but in future thease will be very common even with trts and millitant around the world

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

View: https://x.com/dauntless_ops/status/1858760568078843954?s=46

 

[rkhanna]

Ok then

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/OXtlES8F7Kg?si=eSf-osaFHnNc2pVd
I dont want to walk in mountains of kulgam with this glowing torch when pigs have thermals do you

Its not just that they glow in dark or give away your position suppressor are long , heavy and overexpensive and not to mention rifle wearing out faster so suppressor are great for dedicated ops for sf but for infantry its no go
Suppresser is again one of the reason I think xm7 is trash as std issue
In past thermal and nvg were only with nato and us so it didn't matter if they used suppressor or not but things are changing even in Ukraine both side have very limited night fighting capability but in future thease will be very common even with trts and millitant around the world

Thank you. saw this video when it was posted originally.

Did this information just come to light? Someone tell this to DevGru, Delta, SAS, KSK, etc etc

NVGs and Thermals have been littering the Killing Fields of Afghanistan and the ME for many many many years. it is not the monopoly of Nato.

Also you think Muzzle Flashes (non supressed) will not show on Thermals? AI Enhances Optics will pic out any form of thermal signature at an exponential rate from here on out. The Russians have devices to reflect lasers off Sniper Optics for their Counter Sniper devices.

For every problem there is a Solution. Thermal Insulating Sleeves for Suprressors are getting more and more prevalent. The Tank Brought the ATGM - There is enough advanced R&D on Camo tech to defeat Optics.

The Other Benefits of a Suprressor are:

A suppressor helps:

1. Increase Noise Disicple,
2. Increase Communication Efficiency
3. Increases Accuracy
4, Increases Situational awareness (Your ears are not FUBAR)
5. Potentially Reduces Mussle Flash
6. Reduces Situational Awareness of the OPFOR.

You happened to Mention Infantry vs SOF - I disagree here as well. Most Infantry Fighting is done during Daylight Hours - The issue of Thermal Signature no longer an Issue. Benefits of Suprressor remain (though cost prohibitive).

If am not wrong there is a wonderful paper written up by the USMC on the benefits of suppressors.

You can also buy a subscription and spend sometime on SOFREP.

 

[username unkown]

Thank you. saw this video when it was posted originally.

Did this information just come to light? Someone tell this to DevGru, Delta, SAS, KSK, etc etc

NVGs and Thermals have been littering the Killing Fields of Afghanistan and the ME for many many many years. it is not the monopoly of Nato.

Also you think Muzzle Flashes (non supressed) will not show on Thermals? AI Enhances Optics will pic out any form of thermal signature at an exponential rate from here on out. The Russians have devices to reflect lasers off Sniper Optics for their Counter Sniper devices.

For every problem there is a Solution. Thermal Insulating Sleeves for Suprressors are getting more and more prevalent. The Tank Brought the ATGM - There is enough advanced R&D on Camo tech to defeat Optics.

The Other Benefits of a Suprressor are:

A suppressor helps:

1. Increase Noise Disicple,
2. Increase Communication Efficiency
3. Increases Accuracy
4, Increases Situational awareness (Your ears are not FUBAR)
5. Potentially Reduces Mussle Flash
6. Reduces Situational Awareness of the OPFOR.

You happened to Mention Infantry vs SOF - I disagree here as well. Most Infantry Fighting is done during Daylight Hours - The issue of Thermal Signature no longer an Issue. Benefits of Suprressor remain (though cost prohibitive).

If am not wrong there is a wonderful paper written up by the USMC on the benefits of suppressors.

You can also buy a subscription and spend sometime on SOFREP.

Thermal and nvg are not common in afganistan or me it is known fact that nato guys have best night fighting capability thats why it wasn't issue for western sof to use it in me or afganistan and thermal sleaves does solve this problem to some extent yes

You happened to Mention Infantry vs SOF - I disagree here as well. Most Infantry Fighting is done during Daylight Hours - The issue of Thermal Signature no longer an Issue. Benefits of Suprressor remain (though cost prohibitive).

Suppresser helps yeah but they are long , heavy and overexpensive even for american market do you think our infantry would use it with thier fiberglass helmets
Or our sf with jholachap pc
Thats why I said suppressor is good for sf only with thermal cover or in common language blanket/kambal

 

[rkhanna]

Thermal and nvg are not common in afganistan or me it is known fact that nato guys have best night fighting capability thats why it wasn't issue for western sof to use it in me or afganistan and thermal sleaves does solve this problem to some extent yes

1. Please research how the Taliban were able to take Kabul so quickly - they suprised everyone by fighting through the night and took Afghanstan in days - what they feared was US Airpower without that they owned the US Armed and Equipped AFghan Forces (including at night fighting)
2. NATO/US has now long been getting into gun fights in Syria and Iraq with NVG/Thermals equiped OPFOR (Including Iran/Russian Proxy)

[SOFREP has some good write ups on examples of Western allies (including Israel) encountering near peer tech on the battlefield in the ME and Latin America - Body Armour, Optics, Small Arms, EW Gear etc etc]

3. The US SOCOM pivoted towards Near Peer power Conflicts 2+ years ago - SOFREP had pretty extensive coverage on it. -

US/NATO have the best fighting capability (Night/Combined Arms/EW/Cyber) because they spend the R&D in defeating tomorrow threats today - The Russians/Chinese are bridging the gap in double time. Whether it is UAV/Optics/EW/CyberWarfare. they are thinking not reacting.
- Point being ATGMS do not prevent tanks from being relevant - just a new breed of tactics and armour - Same will happen with Mass prolification of Optics - Better CAMO - physical/digital/electronic

4. Pointless brining in Indian infantry in on a SOF thread? Our Infantry dont even have shoes



My point being Ceteris Paribus (specially on cost) the Suppressor is perfectly fine for ALL infantry fighting.

 

[username unkown]

1. Please research how the Taliban were able to take Kabul so quickly - they suprised everyone by fighting through the night and took Afghanstan in days - what they feared was US Airpower without that they owned the US Armed and Equipped AFghan Forces (including at night fighting)
2. NATO/US has now long been getting into gun fights in Syria and Iraq with NVG/Thermals equiped OPFOR (Including Iran/Russian Proxy)

[SOFREP has some good write ups on examples of Western allies (including Israel) encountering near peer tech on the battlefield in the ME and Latin America - Body Armour, Optics, Small Arms, EW Gear etc etc]

3. The US SOCOM pivoted towards Near Peer power Conflicts 2+ years ago - SOFREP had pretty extensive coverage on it. -

US/NATO have the best fighting capability (Night/Combined Arms/EW/Cyber) because they spend the R&D in defeating tomorrow threats today - The Russians/Chinese are bridging the gap in double time. Whether it is UAV/Optics/EW/CyberWarfare. they are thinking not reacting.
- Point being ATGMS do not prevent tanks from being relevant - just a new breed of tactics and armour - Same will happen with Mass prolification of Optics - Better CAMO - physical/digital/electronic

4. Pointless brining in Indian infantry in on a SOF thread? Our Infantry dont even have shoes



My point being Ceteris Paribus (specially on cost) the Suppressor is perfectly fine for ALL infantry fighting.

Nvg and thermal have nothing to do with taliban taking over kabul easily
And night fighting capability is only limited to elite units in Russian/Iranian proxy or taliban which is very very rare i don't know where you get idea that goat Herder aka dudes with sandals and AK have nvg and thermal and they know how to use them
And I have to much to say but don't want write long ahh post i am lazy sue me
We were talking about suppressor they were heavy ,long and expensive

 

[Jedi Operator]

View: https://x.com/dauntless_ops/status/1858760568078843954?s=46

I shared this way back in the last forum and they are right.

This is something MARCOS will tell you as well, did you watch that interview I shared here asking you to watch it ? The guy says that on land MARCOS try to catch upto Paras and experience wise the Army SF have more, however individually navy guys are better all rounded operators.

Also the Para SF won Airborn Africa twice! That challenge sounds gruelling but compare their CQB drills in Vajra Prahar to MARCOS's in Malabar

Want to fight a post WW2 conflict on an Island with rations cut-off in the jungle and raiding an airfield - call the Paras....but how much have they adapted themselves to the current world. That is the quesiton. This was way back in 2007 and post 26/11 the Navy has done much to get MARCOS prepared for the land.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I shared this way back in the last forum and they are right.

This is something MARCOS will tell you as well, did you watch that interview I shared here asking you to watch it ? The guy says that on land MARCOS try to catch upto Paras and experience wise the Army SF have more, however individually navy guys are better all rounded operators.

Also the Para SF won Airborn Africa twice! That challenge sounds gruelling but compare their CQB drills in Vajra Prahar to MARCOS's in Malabar

Want to fight a post WW2 conflict on an Island with rations cut-off in the jungle and raiding an airfield - call the Paras....but how much have they adapted themselves to the current world. That is the quesiton. This was way back in 2007 and post 26/11 the Navy has done much to get MARCOS prepared for the land.

This i even say from Ghataks…they can give a fight or even annihilate Garuds and Marcos regularly but as far as Special ops or intellect comes in for operations they dont even come close.

The ragda and basic soldiering of Army is much much better than Garuds and Marcos combined…They own all the schools afterall.

 

[hkdas]

View: https://x.com/Kilo_Spec/status/1858877180102799649?t=nhC5RGCe1_KWvgWHwnKvMQ&s=19

 

[hkdas]

View: https://x.com/Kilo_Spec/status/1858877180102799649?t=nhC5RGCe1_KWvgWHwnKvMQ&s=19

Screenshots from this video


View: https://x.com/Spearcorps/status/1858871084914765922?t=Bf4yUhCgM2SmdVdGk5QqUQ&s=19

 

[Jedi Operator]

This i even say from Ghataks…they can give a fight or even annihilate Garuds and Marcos regularly but as far as Special ops or intellect comes in for operations they dont even come close.

The ragda and basic soldiering of Army is much much better than Garuds and Marcos combined…They own all the schools afterall.

Dont agree with that one, wont even mention Garuds but here's my argument for MARCOS

Watch Maj Yash Mor's interview with Cdr Vijay Rawat.....both have done Ghatak Course in Belgaum and Cdr Rawat has done CD and MARCOS course too, when he was telling the standards of Diving school, both of them agreed it's much harder than Commando school Belgaum which all infantry officers and the Ghataks do

Secondly, in Australian SASR, those who apply from Navy's CDT (Clearance Divers) only have to do the 2 or 4 weeks of aptitude phase like running up and down hills then they are put straight to Counter terrorist training without having to do any pre-requist courses others have to go throught being trusted that they can learn things quickly and are comparativly much fitter. Source for this is Gregor Salmon who wrote books on Navy Divers of Australia and War on Afghanistan.

Now, any kind of physical training in water is much tougher than land. On top of that ask any Para SF vetran, be it Maj Sahani for that example who have done the Combat Diver Training. They'll tell you how tough it was even for them. Now if you want to be a MARCO, that's the first phase you need to go through. And just watch that interview I asked you to, no harm...compare the way he describes Hell Week and MARCOS training pattern to that of Paras and you will see

What instead makes Para SF good on land is their constant exposure to one particular area only. Experience is what gives Army SF the edge, training not so much I'd say. And by that I dont mean to take away this from them that their probation is absolute nuts. But MARCOS are a notch further in terms of ragda.

MARCOS dont go to any of the Army schools anymore. They have NSWTTC and it is self sufficient. The only Army schools they go to is prior to Kashmir deployment - HAWS (if they're going for a winter deployment) and Corps Battle School. MARCOS also do the Airforce's PTS, Agra which everyone in SF goes to.

 

[hkdas]

View: https://x.com/Defence_Squad_/status/1858882673906713032?t=FO45xyc9-rQlL8lvJDX8vQ&s=19

 

[TAVOUR 21]

NE

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

What instead makes Para SF good on land is their constant exposure to one particular area only. Experience is what gives Army SF the edge, training not so much I'd say. And by that I dont mean to take away this from them that their probation is absolute nuts. But MARCOS are a notch further in terms of ragda.

This is also true for Ghataks.

Its all about experience..its the same reason NE militants are dangerous.

Ghataks are trained in Commando School Mhow,CBS,CIJWS,HAWS and some of them are ex NSG and RR.

On top of that they fight for their pride that is their caste like Rajput Reggt,SIKLI,JAT,Maratha that keeps them going even though they are not SF with probation.

Maj Karnal Sher Khan of SSG was killed by a Sikh young soldier in hand to hand combat even though he had not done any specialist courses because he was motivated by his Sikh Brigade Commader Bajwa saying Khalsa flag needs to be on top.

So we cant count that off too…these things are as bigger as any toughness ragda would give.

Plus these guys have NCOs JCOs Subeidaars who have seen combat in real life,get deployed on LOC regularly not for months like Marcos but for years.

They have real exposure of deployment after courses like CIJWS where they develop their own tactics which is ever evolving…Do Marcos see any such deployment after HAWS or CIJWS? No.

Maybe you wont agree but for me experience matters more than theory.

And no matter how pissed i am on Para SF but deep down i know even with shitty equipment Para SF are still the no 1 SF in India by a huge margin.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Jedi Operator]

This is also true for Ghataks.

Its all about experience..its the same reason NE militants are dangerous.

Ghataks are trained in Commando School Mhow,CBS,CIJWS,HAWS and some of them are ex NSG and RR.

On top of that they fight for their pride that is their caste like Rajput Reggt,SIKLI,JAT,Maratha that keeps them going even though they are not SF with probation.

Maj Karnal Sher Khan of SSG was killed by a Sikh young soldier in hand to hand combat even though he had not done any specialist courses because he was motivated by his Sikh Brigade Commader Bajwa saying Khalsa flag needs to be on top.

So we cant count that off too…these things are as bigger as any toughness ragda would give.

Plus these guys have NCOs JCOs Subeidaars who have seen combat in real life,get deployed on LOC regularly not for months like Marcos but for years.

They have real exposure of deployment after courses like CIJWS where they develop their own tactics which is ever evolving…Do Marcos see any such deployment after HAWS or CIJWS? No.

Maybe you wont agree but for me experience matters more than theory.

And no matter how pissed i am on Para SF but deep down i know even with shitty equipment Para SF are still the no 1 SF in India by a huge margin.

Feel free to disagree.

na it's a valid opinion.....experience counts the most, I was just disagreeing on the ragda part. The training that navy divers and marine commandos go through is the toughest the department of defence has to offer. They are also very versatile, they can de deployed in Gujrat along the LoC, they can be deployed in Sundarbans, they can be deployed in Mumbai, they can be deployed in Kashmir, in Ladakh, in Sri Lanka, Maldives, Islands basically, on ships whatever

This brings us to a common axiom in the millitary "If you defend everywhere, you defend nowehere"

Which is why specialization matters.....some battalions of Para SF who operate in North East, none can beat them there......some battalions who operate in Kashmir none can beat them there........some battalions which prepare for desert non can beat them there.

MARCOS which has the sole experience in maritime domain, non can beat them there, NSG whose equipment, funding, role and training all is centered around urban warfare and anti-hijacking - none can beat them there.

And as important as specilization is, because that brings in a certain level of experience....if you know what I mean....cross-training is equally important

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

na it's a valid opinion.....experience counts the most, I was just disagreeing on the ragda part. The training that navy divers and marine commandos go through is the toughest the department of defence has to offer. They are also very versatile, they can de deployed in Gujrat along the LoC, they can be deployed in Sundarbans, they can be deployed in Mumbai, they can be deployed in Kashmir, in Ladakh, in Sri Lanka, Maldives, Islands basically, on ships whatever

This brings us to a common axiom in the millitary "If you defend everywhere, you defend nowehere"

Which is why specialization matters.....some battalions of Para SF who operate in North East, none can beat them there......some battalions who operate in Kashmir none can beat them there........some battalions which prepare for desert non can beat them there.

MARCOS which has the sole experience in maritime domain, non can beat them there, NSG whose equipment, funding, role and training all is centered around urban warfare and anti-hijacking - none can beat them there.

And as important as specilization is, because that brings in a certain level of experience....if you know what I mean....cross-training is equally important

You can add the case of 9 aswell.

9 Para is called the best by fanbois because they thing about Kashmir when talking about performance.

Can 9 perform with the same efficiency if it is deployed in That desert? Or in Nagaland? …I dont think so.

I think the solution is that in every unit there needa to be a % of troops which will be cross trained and not forced into battle at that period and these troops will be rotated.

 

[Jedi Operator]

You can add the case of 9 aswell.

9 Para is called the best by fanbois because they thing about Kashmir when talking about performance.

Can 9 perform with the same efficiency if it is deployed in That desert? Or in Nagaland? …I dont think so.

I think the solution is that in every unit there needa to be a % of troops which will be cross trained and not forced into battle at that period and these troops will be rotated.

It's still good however to be exposed to different areas of war
1 Para during the time of Major Sapru operated in Sri Lanka, NE and Kashmir
Infact you are not wrong, I dont see if Maj Jacob did any combat operations in NE during his time in 11 Para, he says out of his 14 year career he did 9 years in ops, so all in nine itself.
But see Para SF like the case of Maj Sapru can operate in great efficiency in different Area of Operations but that only if they are used like a Special force, which we saw in the 1990s
If you use them the way you'd use Ghataks or RR, then experience only counts