Kaveri Engine

[Dieversion]

Funding alone does not deliver. Talent, willing to learn elsewhere and purchase whatever you cannot do and finally good project management will do the job.

I still recommend that all these developments be privatized to introduce, discipline, accountability and responsibility. Right now it operates as government department with everything mentioned above missing.

Well that's not happening because no private entity will take a risky venture with limited orders, if it had been the case then we would have seen offers pouring in.

Private companies chase profits that is what makes them efficient. So if we want them in the we have to give them an opportunity to earn big numbers.

So for now GTRE will be the one who will develop the engine. It will take time, talent, money and help but we will certainly get there.

What would certainly help is if we can come up with a plan for high bypass ratio derivative that can be used in our indigenous regional jet. This will certainly improve the economics of developing the jet technology.

 

[Hari Sud]

incorporate into a new company and sell 49%. Lots of willing people will come to buy. Nothing is changed except it is not a government department anymore. IAS officers are not running the show from head office. The employee will get a kick in their back and suddenly their attitude toward work changes. The new company will incorporate rewards for successful work. Patents will be filed with inventor as part owner of royalty. The decision making line is shortened with no need for ill educated minister to get advice and then decide.

Now watch the 5 years work completed in 3 years and successfully.

 

[Spitfire IX]

incorporate into a new company and sell 49%. Lots of willing people will come to buy. Nothing is changed except it is not a government department anymore. IAS officers are not running the show from head office. The employee will get a kick in their back and suddenly their attitude toward work changes. The new company will incorporate rewards for successful work. Patents will be filed with inventor as part owner of royalty. The decision making line is shortened with no need for ill educated minister to get advice and then decide.

Now watch the 5 years work completed in 3 years and successfully.

How do you tempt a private company to take a contract to assemble AMCA when assembly of fast jets has been a HAL monopoly, preventing all others building up experience in assembling fast jets?

 

[Blademaster]

How do you tempt a private company to take a contract to assemble AMCA when assembly of fast jets has been a HAL monopoly, preventing all others building up experience in assembling fast jets?

You keep highlighting the failures of HAL and promote the Indianess of your company and the fact that it meets the objectives of Atmanirbhar Bharat and put the IAF in a bind.

 

[Spitfire IX]

You keep highlighting the failures of HAL and promote the Indianess of your company and the fact that it meets the objectives of Atmanirbhar Bharat and put the IAF in a bind.

I think you may have confused me with someone else. I am not Indian. I did have my own company in England until last year but I decided to stop trading because I had other things to do in a couple of other countries and I could not work in more than one country at the same time. I favour getting things done and reaching objectives. In India's case I favour the country completing what was started 30 years ago - making a fast jet engine. I think that is attainable, although not very useful if it only goes into production years after it was needed for Tejas production. That makes no sense to me. All aircraft seen as necessary for IAF, so ordered to fulfil that need but delivered many years late put the IAF in a bind.

 

[Dieversion]

incorporate into a new company and sell 49%. Lots of willing people will come to buy. Nothing is changed except it is not a government department anymore. IAS officers are not running the show from head office. The employee will get a kick in their back and suddenly their attitude toward work changes. The new company will incorporate rewards for successful work. Patents will be filed with inventor as part owner of royalty. The decision making line is shortened with no need for ill educated minister to get advice and then decide.

Now watch the 5 years work completed in 3 years and successfully.

Make a new company and sell it !!??

Who sets the evaluation of this company with zero merits ?

It will be a penny stock and will raise a laughable amount of money.

What needs to be done is disinvestment of dpsu's like HAL, privatise these entities. It's about time these dpsu's and psus are privatised. Afterall a government's job is to govern with robust policies and not get involved in making rifles, tanks and jets.

Yes the government's involvement was necessary in the early years after independence but not anymore.

 

[Nutcracker]

I think you may have confused me with someone else. I am not Indian. I did have my own company in England until last year but I decided to stop trading because I had other things to do in a couple of other countries and I could not work in more than one country at the same time. I favour getting things done and reaching objectives. In India's case I favour the country completing what was started 30 years ago - making a fast jet engine. I think that is attainable, although not very useful if it only goes into production years after it was needed for Tejas production. That makes no sense to me. All aircraft seen as necessary for IAF, so ordered to fulfil that need but delivered many years late put the IAF in a bind.

Aircrafts get midlife engine replacement, Tejas and Ghatak UCAV numbers will sore upto 250 atleast. So Kaveri even if delivered by 2030 with 55-89kN, will be useful.

 

[londonparistokyo]

Funding doesn't just mean putting money into R&D. Funding means high salaries for research engineers willing to put in the work. Funding means process design, test facilities, salaries, and the actual R&D as well.

 

[Blademaster]

I think you may have confused me with someone else. I am not Indian. I did have my own company in England until last year but I decided to stop trading because I had other things to do in a couple of other countries and I could not work in more than one country at the same time. I favour getting things done and reaching objectives. In India's case I favour the country completing what was started 30 years ago - making a fast jet engine. I think that is attainable, although not very useful if it only goes into production years after it was needed for Tejas production. That makes no sense to me. All aircraft seen as necessary for IAF, so ordered to fulfil that need but delivered many years late put the IAF in a bind.

No you misunderstood me. What I said was in response to your question of how do we promote this company and I proposed a solution.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

3d thrust vectoring.


View attachment 344

Moving portion too big. Ideally only the nozzle panels are actuated, as seen in most TVC nozzles. In some cases, the ring part is pivoted & panels are kept only for radial movement like before.



But it seems they are working on another model which can be used for any desired jet.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

In dry thrust there is no glowing flame, only burnt gas, hence called dry thrust. But here it seems there is some core axial flame also in dry level. As the nozzle is expanded the glowing flame also expands radially.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Comparing Kaveri engine to some similar good engines & also F-22's F119



I made a concurrent graph bringing all parameters of Kaveri to 100 & then adjusting other engines in same ratio, so now we can see what other engines have their parameters less or more.



This is a common person's approach - given a particular cylindrical space, how much air can be sucked in & thrust generated per unit engine volume.

Values near the 100 line with less deviation :
> The Turbine inlet temp. of other engines is just 100-200 K more.
> Dry SFC, except for F119 which is unusually low.
> Compressor + Turbine stages just b/w 10-12.
- EJ-200 has 1 less HPC stage yet its OPR is more than M-88-2 & Kaveri & equal to F119.
- Increasing 1 HPC stage in F414 increases OPR to 30.
> Engine length 349-399 cm. I wonder - after flame holder, how long should be a tail pipe.
> Dry thrust b/w 50-60 KN.
> Air mass flow of others is lesser, except F119 obviously.

Big variations :
> Parameters much higher :
- BPR of all engines is more, especially EJ-200 enabling EF-2000 to SuCr @ Mach 1.5. The F119 BPR is same as of M-88-2 but F-22 SuCr at M 1.8 but Rafale at M 1.4, although there are other design parameters also.
- Dry thrust/engine-weight of M-88-2 & EJ-200 are significantly high.
- Also the dry thrust/engine-volume.
> Parameters much lower :
- Inlet diameter/area, except F119
- Engine volume, except F119
- Engine weight, except F119

So what to do with Kaveri Engine?
> Change BPR from 0.16 to b/w 0.25 & 0.4
> Increase OPR by increasing 1 more HPC stage or re-engineer blades of current stages.
> Increase SFC little bit.
> Decrease engine weight.
> Re-engineer Afterburner & nozzle sections.
That's all an enthusiast can say

 

[londonparistokyo]

I ask not to criticize but to better understand:

Where is India struggling with the jet engine and why is India struggling with a jet engine? I guess as an outsider (I am ethnically Indian, by blood Indian, by heart and dharma Indian, but reside in USA) it's easy to say and criticize but I don't really understand the hurdles either?

 

[SlayingHell]

I ask not to criticize but to better understand:

Where is India struggling with the jet engine and why is India struggling with a jet engine? I guess as an outsider (I am ethnically Indian, by blood Indian, by heart and dharma Indian, but reside in USA) it's easy to say and criticize but I don't really understand the hurdles either?

There is Money. There is Talent. There is willingness from Scientists and Engineers. The Only HURDLE is Babus. Whether its generic Babu-giri or willful malicious hampering down by dancing to tunes of Foreign Entities. You know the Engine could come within 5 years if Modi does a Nuke Test and big biradher santions India.

 

[Lcafanboy]

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1832646362678407365


View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1832646369934471245

 

[TopWatcher]

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1832646362678407365


View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1832646369934471245

Does this company will now protect by govt under national security ? Such rare technology companies need to be protected.

 

[Lcafanboy]

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1835930565272318367

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1835930565272318367

I had heard some 4-5 yrs ago drdo developed vaccum laser drill technology so what happened ?

 

[Spitfire IX]

I had heard some 4-5 yrs ago drdo developed vaccum laser drill technology so what happened ?

Perhaps it did not work too well. I recall it being reported that the F414 license production deal would include transfer of such technology.

 

[Azaad]

I don't dismiss Kaveri. I suggest that GOI should invest to get it finished. I suggest that the project should be managed in a competent manner. I suggest that incompetents involved should be replaced with competents. I suggest taking the steps needed to get Kaveri to the point where it can be used in a fighter. That was and remains the aim, as far as I know.

I definitely do not know exactly how much modern tech is incorporated in Kaveri. Has it got single crystal fan blade or blisk technology etc? Sure, all it needs to do for Mk1A is to produce sufficient thrust reliably at an acceptable rate of fuel consumption for an acceptable number of hours. That is good enough for India's immediate needs, isn't it? GOI has failed to invest enough to get it to that point yet. Perhaps GTRE has not been good at managing the development either.

Regarding F414, TOT is limited to manufacturing TOT, isn't it?

I do not think that any OEM will be passing on enough technology in a jv for India to design, develop and manufacture its own engines. Why should they? India cannot make an engine for AMCA. It is in a position where it has to accept whatever the foreign OEM's are prepared to offer.

I think that India is kidding itself if it thinks it will magically be able to develop its own engines through ToT. If it wants to be able to develop its own engines I think that GOI belatedly needs to start investing billions of dollars over perhaps a decade or two to develop the technologies required.

GTRE Plots Path for Next-Generation Kaveri Engine (Kaveri 2.0) – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Another credible article from IDRW. Looks like there's been a change in management.