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Kaveri Engine
- Thread starter Kattar
- Start date
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Drdo roadmap on isothermal forging.
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Investment casting.
Single crystal blades and vanes have been developed for kaveri dry engine.
Drdo is now testing double wall internal cooling.
Single crystal blades and vanes have been developed for kaveri dry engine.
Drdo is now testing double wall internal cooling.
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Drdo is developing bling for jet engines with iisc.
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CMC parts development for aero engine.
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Life extention program for jet engine.
For Su-30 engine time between overhaul revised to 1000h beyond OEM recommended 500h.
Downtime of fighter aircraft reduced.
For Su-30 engine time between overhaul revised to 1000h beyond OEM recommended 500h.
Downtime of fighter aircraft reduced.
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I feel like all the technology needed to make a perfected kaveri has been achieved.
Now all they need is some funding to fabricate and test a scaled up kaveri with bi-pass ratio of .3-.4 .
Since kaveri is a flat rated engine designed for indian environmental conditions this hypothetical engine will most likely be sufficient for mk1a and mk2.
Lets hope for the best and hope that mudi ji also take over engine project under PMO.
Now all they need is some funding to fabricate and test a scaled up kaveri with bi-pass ratio of .3-.4 .
Since kaveri is a flat rated engine designed for indian environmental conditions this hypothetical engine will most likely be sufficient for mk1a and mk2.
Lets hope for the best and hope that mudi ji also take over engine project under PMO.
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If India has the tech to make a working Kaveri and bypasses its worst red tape, perhaps the second batch of Mk1A could be built with an Indian engine. It does need India to make it happen, though.
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Certification takes a lot of time, may be the last squadron from the second batch, not the entire second batch
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My take on the Kaveri engine programme.
I say KAVERI is the future. No Safran nor Rolls Royce. We have come this far with Kaveri, we need to improvise a little more. What we need to understand is that Jet engine is a very critical type of technology and no country is going to give it, no matter what.
I am not confident that the French are going to be ready to part away with their engine technology, the deal with Safran might simply involve screwdriver-giri like, they may let us manufacture some of the engine parts but the core tech which our scientists need will not be shared. Same with UK's RR. At the end of the day, it's our money and efforts which will give out the desired input.
For example, Rafale uses two Snecma M-88 engines. It can generate a maximum thrust of 50 kN (11,200 lbf) without afterburner and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) with afterburner. In comparison, during many tests of the Indian Kaveri, the engine was able to generate a thrust of 16,000–17,000 lbf (70–75 kN).
I think the problem with Kaveri is that it's inefficient in terms of shelf life, though it can generate the desired amount of thrust that an engine of it's dimensions should, the engine blades would later break, and this posed a problem. India is self dependent in many things, many times the world refused to give us access to certain technologies, what did we do? We built them indigenously in house itself because we needed to.
If Kaveri doesn't become ready in time, we will have to import the power plant for the AMCA from the US, UK or France. I am sure that out of the three countries I mentioned, we will be using American GE series engines to power the initial batches of AMCA. Subsequent Batches will utilise Kaveri or a engine made through a JV with either GE, Safran or Rolls Royce but directly imported though. For now, we need to play our cards well if we want an engine for AMCA, it's not an easy task to maintain a balanced geopolitical stand between the US and Russia, few countries on the planet have the privilege to achieve such a feat, fingers crossed that Kaveri eventually succeeds because jet engine technology=>crucial.
I strongly believe that India is on the verge of finally cracking jet engine technology through the Kaveri programme, and when that happens we can proudly say that India is truly Atmanirbhar in aerospace technology. If we think that someone will just hand over jet engine tech to us for a few billion dollars then we are fooling ourselves.
Kaveri needs more funding and I think the Kaveri program till date has not recieved even 1 billion dollars in funds. This is the problem with Indian mentality: We expect to get F-35 style tech for the prize of a Cold-War Era MiG-21. Come on! We are there! I know we are! A little more push and we will get there.
I say KAVERI is the future. No Safran nor Rolls Royce. We have come this far with Kaveri, we need to improvise a little more. What we need to understand is that Jet engine is a very critical type of technology and no country is going to give it, no matter what.
I am not confident that the French are going to be ready to part away with their engine technology, the deal with Safran might simply involve screwdriver-giri like, they may let us manufacture some of the engine parts but the core tech which our scientists need will not be shared. Same with UK's RR. At the end of the day, it's our money and efforts which will give out the desired input.
For example, Rafale uses two Snecma M-88 engines. It can generate a maximum thrust of 50 kN (11,200 lbf) without afterburner and 75 kN (16,900 lbf) with afterburner. In comparison, during many tests of the Indian Kaveri, the engine was able to generate a thrust of 16,000–17,000 lbf (70–75 kN).
I think the problem with Kaveri is that it's inefficient in terms of shelf life, though it can generate the desired amount of thrust that an engine of it's dimensions should, the engine blades would later break, and this posed a problem. India is self dependent in many things, many times the world refused to give us access to certain technologies, what did we do? We built them indigenously in house itself because we needed to.
If Kaveri doesn't become ready in time, we will have to import the power plant for the AMCA from the US, UK or France. I am sure that out of the three countries I mentioned, we will be using American GE series engines to power the initial batches of AMCA. Subsequent Batches will utilise Kaveri or a engine made through a JV with either GE, Safran or Rolls Royce but directly imported though. For now, we need to play our cards well if we want an engine for AMCA, it's not an easy task to maintain a balanced geopolitical stand between the US and Russia, few countries on the planet have the privilege to achieve such a feat, fingers crossed that Kaveri eventually succeeds because jet engine technology=>crucial.
I strongly believe that India is on the verge of finally cracking jet engine technology through the Kaveri programme, and when that happens we can proudly say that India is truly Atmanirbhar in aerospace technology. If we think that someone will just hand over jet engine tech to us for a few billion dollars then we are fooling ourselves.
Kaveri needs more funding and I think the Kaveri program till date has not recieved even 1 billion dollars in funds. This is the problem with Indian mentality: We expect to get F-35 style tech for the prize of a Cold-War Era MiG-21. Come on! We are there! I know we are! A little more push and we will get there.
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Source ?
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If you spent $50 billion or whatever over the years developing a technology, would you sell it to a potential future competitor for a few billion? I often hear the complaint that foreign OEM's 'refuse' to part with their IP.
GOI should have invested much, much more in Kaveri over the years, and employed knowledgeable, experienced personnel if it expected a timely, successful outcome for the project.
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Some of the significant achievements of the National Programme – Gas Turbine Enabling Technology (GATET) (2009-2017) formulated by GTRE and AR&DB Propulsion Panel are as follows.
1. Design Tools, Software, Simulation Models & Methodologies – Bond Graph Technique for Damper Design, DNS & LES based CFD codes, Aero-acoustics etc., (25 No’s)
•Development of Direct Numerical Simulation (LES) Code through JNCASR, Bangalore to Analyze Flow& Heat Transfer through Turbo-machinery Blades.
Development of Large Eddy Simulation (LES) Code through IISc, Bangalore to Analyze Flow through Turbo-machinery Blades.
Development of Acoustic Analysis Method for Afterburner Screech Liner through IIT Hyderabad.
Reduced Order Bond Graph Method for Designing Floating Mass Dampers through IIT Kharagpur.
Studies on Improving Axial Flow Compressor Performance through IIT Madras.
2. Experimental Facilities & Infrastructure– Flutter, Screech, Squeeze Film Dampers & InterShaft Bearings etc., (10 Nos.)
 Facility Established at NAL, Bangalore to Understand Afterburner Screech
 Facility Established at IISc, Bangalore to Understand Transonic Stall Flutter
 Test Rig for Characterizing Inter Shaft Bearings Established at NAL, Bangalore
 High Speed Bearing Test Facility Established at Veltech University, Chennai
 Test Rig Established at IIT Kanpur for Studying Aero-Elasticity of Turbo-machinery Blades.
3. Design Verification & Validation Tests on Engine Components & Models – Compressor & Turbine maps of STFE, Correlations & Test Data for Cooling Turbine Blades & Combustor
Liners (12)
 Rotating Test Rig Established at IIT Bombay for Blade Cooling Experiments
Spray Patternation Test Stand Established at GTRE through IIT Madras for Characterizing Atomisers
Matrix Cooling Test Rig Established at IIT Roorkee
Impedance Tube Facility Established at IIT Dhanbad for Acoustical Measurements
Experimental Characterization of STFE Turbine & Compressor at NAL, Bangalore through Facility Upgradation
Experimental Data Generation pertinent to Effusion Cooling of Combustor Liner through NAL, Bangalore.
4. Futuristic Technologies – Active Magnetic Bearings (AMB), Inter-Pulse TIG welding, Metal Matrix Composites, Multi Variable Control etc., (16 Nos.)
AMB Developed through NAL, Bangalore
Gas Turbine Research Laboratory (Engine Controls) Established at IIT Bombay
IPTIG Welding Process Developed through Annamalai University (IPTIG Machine Handed Over to GTRE)
5. Product & Process Development – Sensors (Thin Film based for Strain, MEMS based for Vibration, Inductive Pulse based for Oil Debris Detection), JP10 Synthesis (lab scale) etc., (6 Nos.)
In summary, the achievements made through GATET initiative played a vital role in the indigenous design, development and realization of gas turbine engines and their components for the current & future engine programs in the country.
Some of the significant achievements of the Propulsion Panel projects from 2018-2023 are as follows:
Investigation on Spray Combustion Characteristics of JP-10 Embedded with Boron Particles. Useful for Future Small Gas Turbine Engine Programmes of GTRE
Development Studies on 50N Thrust Class Liquid Fueled Valveless Pulsejet Engines. Useful for Indigenous expendable propulsion system for MAVs and target drones of ADE
Dynamic Data Driven Control for Mitigation of Lean Blow out Gas Turbine Combustors. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: GTRE/DRDL
Synthesis of Potential High Energy Density Fuels: An Alternative to JP-10 Fuel for Air-breathing Missiles. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: DRDL/GTRE
Design of an Integral Squeeze Film Damper (SFD). Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: GTRE/DRDL
Preparation of Air-Stable and Hydro Carbon Fuel Dispersible Amorphous Nano-boron Powder for Solid Rocket Motor and Air Breathing Missile Application. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: DRDL
Experimental Investigation of Primary and Secondary Breakup of Liquid Jets in Coaxial Air-Blast Atomisation. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: GTRE
1. Design Tools, Software, Simulation Models & Methodologies – Bond Graph Technique for Damper Design, DNS & LES based CFD codes, Aero-acoustics etc., (25 No’s)
•Development of Direct Numerical Simulation (LES) Code through JNCASR, Bangalore to Analyze Flow& Heat Transfer through Turbo-machinery Blades.
Development of Large Eddy Simulation (LES) Code through IISc, Bangalore to Analyze Flow through Turbo-machinery Blades.
Development of Acoustic Analysis Method for Afterburner Screech Liner through IIT Hyderabad.
Reduced Order Bond Graph Method for Designing Floating Mass Dampers through IIT Kharagpur.
Studies on Improving Axial Flow Compressor Performance through IIT Madras.
2. Experimental Facilities & Infrastructure– Flutter, Screech, Squeeze Film Dampers & InterShaft Bearings etc., (10 Nos.)
 Facility Established at NAL, Bangalore to Understand Afterburner Screech
 Facility Established at IISc, Bangalore to Understand Transonic Stall Flutter
 Test Rig for Characterizing Inter Shaft Bearings Established at NAL, Bangalore
 High Speed Bearing Test Facility Established at Veltech University, Chennai
 Test Rig Established at IIT Kanpur for Studying Aero-Elasticity of Turbo-machinery Blades.
3. Design Verification & Validation Tests on Engine Components & Models – Compressor & Turbine maps of STFE, Correlations & Test Data for Cooling Turbine Blades & Combustor
Liners (12)
 Rotating Test Rig Established at IIT Bombay for Blade Cooling Experiments
Spray Patternation Test Stand Established at GTRE through IIT Madras for Characterizing Atomisers
Matrix Cooling Test Rig Established at IIT Roorkee
Impedance Tube Facility Established at IIT Dhanbad for Acoustical Measurements
Experimental Characterization of STFE Turbine & Compressor at NAL, Bangalore through Facility Upgradation
Experimental Data Generation pertinent to Effusion Cooling of Combustor Liner through NAL, Bangalore.
4. Futuristic Technologies – Active Magnetic Bearings (AMB), Inter-Pulse TIG welding, Metal Matrix Composites, Multi Variable Control etc., (16 Nos.)
AMB Developed through NAL, Bangalore
Gas Turbine Research Laboratory (Engine Controls) Established at IIT Bombay
IPTIG Welding Process Developed through Annamalai University (IPTIG Machine Handed Over to GTRE)
5. Product & Process Development – Sensors (Thin Film based for Strain, MEMS based for Vibration, Inductive Pulse based for Oil Debris Detection), JP10 Synthesis (lab scale) etc., (6 Nos.)
In summary, the achievements made through GATET initiative played a vital role in the indigenous design, development and realization of gas turbine engines and their components for the current & future engine programs in the country.
Some of the significant achievements of the Propulsion Panel projects from 2018-2023 are as follows:
Investigation on Spray Combustion Characteristics of JP-10 Embedded with Boron Particles. Useful for Future Small Gas Turbine Engine Programmes of GTRE
Development Studies on 50N Thrust Class Liquid Fueled Valveless Pulsejet Engines. Useful for Indigenous expendable propulsion system for MAVs and target drones of ADE
Dynamic Data Driven Control for Mitigation of Lean Blow out Gas Turbine Combustors. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: GTRE/DRDL
Synthesis of Potential High Energy Density Fuels: An Alternative to JP-10 Fuel for Air-breathing Missiles. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: DRDL/GTRE
Design of an Integral Squeeze Film Damper (SFD). Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: GTRE/DRDL
Preparation of Air-Stable and Hydro Carbon Fuel Dispersible Amorphous Nano-boron Powder for Solid Rocket Motor and Air Breathing Missile Application. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: DRDL
Experimental Investigation of Primary and Secondary Breakup of Liquid Jets in Coaxial Air-Blast Atomisation. Domain Lab/Probable Beneficiary: GTRE
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Technical Achievements of drdo GTMAP (Gas Turbine Materials And Processes) Programme.
Structural Materials and Processes
Good synergy between four projects at NAL and one at IIT-KGP has resulted in addressing certain key issues in Cf-SiC Ceramic Matrix Composites which are low density high temperature materials with potential applications in aero engines.
Several new high temperature Co based alloys have been prepared and characterised for high temperature strength, creep and oxidation resistance and microstructural stability at IISc.
Deformation maps leading to identification of suitable processing domains for high temperature gamma titanium aluminides have been generated at IISc.
Fretting wear resistance of conventional and improved coating materials have been evaluated at high temperatures at IIT-M.
Coatings
Beneficial effect of partial replacement of Pt with Pd and Ir has been assessed at IISc. A novel mechanical testing methodology involving bending suitable for testing materials in small volumes like in coatings has also been developed under this project.
Indigenous mechanical testing facilities to cater for high temperature small volume materials like top and bond coats have been developed and demonstrated at IIT-B.
Ultra-thin multi-layered erosion resistant Ti/TiN and TiAl/TiAlN coatings (thickness ~9-10 μm) with stress absorbing layers were developed at NAL using magnetron sputtering on Ti6Al4V substrates.
Feasibility of CNT reinforcement in WC-Co coatings and its positive influence on micro hardness, elastic modulus and wear rate were assessed at IIT-KGP.
Evolution of residual stresses due to phase transformations and formation of TGO layers in thermal barrier coatings were assessed at IIT-B.
Lifing Science & Technology
Laser peening process without coating has been developed to minimize the surface roughness and to maximize the intensity and depth of compressive residual stresses in Titanium alloys at VIT.
Crystal plasticity based microstructurally informed framework to model creep in turbine blade alloys has been developed at IIT-B.
Development of modelling framework for assessment of life of thermal barrier coated and uncoated turbine blades has been carries out at MNNIT-A.
Sensors
Co-axial surface junction thermocouples have been developed and its dynamic characteristics have been studied and calibrated using a state-of-the-art laser calibration facility established through the project.
Indium oxide (In2O3) and indium tin oxide (In2O3-SnO2) thin-films have been prepared through spray pyrolysis route and bi-ceramic thermocouple junctions have been fabricated and tested targeting temperature sensing applications at high temperatures at NAL.
PVDF film sensors were developed at NAL and bonded to titanium substrate and have been tested for dynamic loading conditions and vibration at GTRE and found to withstand rotary speed of 12000 rpm.
Advanced Manufacturing
A new generation hybrid machine tool has been developed at IIT-M to produce micro holes in high temperature superalloys using micro EDM and ultrafast pulsed laser processes.
Critical aspects of high speed deep grinding of aerospace metallic alloys and ceramics were studied at IIT-KGP under single layer super‐abrasive surface grinding domain.
A numerical controlled Electrochemical Milling set up was designed and developed at Jadavpur Univ.for generation of intricate shapes and contour or profiled structures on Ti and Ni alloys through tool path design by introducing pulsed DC power supply.
Structural Materials and Processes
Good synergy between four projects at NAL and one at IIT-KGP has resulted in addressing certain key issues in Cf-SiC Ceramic Matrix Composites which are low density high temperature materials with potential applications in aero engines.
Several new high temperature Co based alloys have been prepared and characterised for high temperature strength, creep and oxidation resistance and microstructural stability at IISc.
Deformation maps leading to identification of suitable processing domains for high temperature gamma titanium aluminides have been generated at IISc.
Fretting wear resistance of conventional and improved coating materials have been evaluated at high temperatures at IIT-M.
Coatings
Beneficial effect of partial replacement of Pt with Pd and Ir has been assessed at IISc. A novel mechanical testing methodology involving bending suitable for testing materials in small volumes like in coatings has also been developed under this project.
Indigenous mechanical testing facilities to cater for high temperature small volume materials like top and bond coats have been developed and demonstrated at IIT-B.
Ultra-thin multi-layered erosion resistant Ti/TiN and TiAl/TiAlN coatings (thickness ~9-10 μm) with stress absorbing layers were developed at NAL using magnetron sputtering on Ti6Al4V substrates.
Feasibility of CNT reinforcement in WC-Co coatings and its positive influence on micro hardness, elastic modulus and wear rate were assessed at IIT-KGP.
Evolution of residual stresses due to phase transformations and formation of TGO layers in thermal barrier coatings were assessed at IIT-B.
Lifing Science & Technology
Laser peening process without coating has been developed to minimize the surface roughness and to maximize the intensity and depth of compressive residual stresses in Titanium alloys at VIT.
Crystal plasticity based microstructurally informed framework to model creep in turbine blade alloys has been developed at IIT-B.
Development of modelling framework for assessment of life of thermal barrier coated and uncoated turbine blades has been carries out at MNNIT-A.
Sensors
Co-axial surface junction thermocouples have been developed and its dynamic characteristics have been studied and calibrated using a state-of-the-art laser calibration facility established through the project.
Indium oxide (In2O3) and indium tin oxide (In2O3-SnO2) thin-films have been prepared through spray pyrolysis route and bi-ceramic thermocouple junctions have been fabricated and tested targeting temperature sensing applications at high temperatures at NAL.
PVDF film sensors were developed at NAL and bonded to titanium substrate and have been tested for dynamic loading conditions and vibration at GTRE and found to withstand rotary speed of 12000 rpm.
Advanced Manufacturing
A new generation hybrid machine tool has been developed at IIT-M to produce micro holes in high temperature superalloys using micro EDM and ultrafast pulsed laser processes.
Critical aspects of high speed deep grinding of aerospace metallic alloys and ceramics were studied at IIT-KGP under single layer super‐abrasive surface grinding domain.
A numerical controlled Electrochemical Milling set up was designed and developed at Jadavpur Univ.for generation of intricate shapes and contour or profiled structures on Ti and Ni alloys through tool path design by introducing pulsed DC power supply.
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GTMAP.
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Studies on reducing secondary losses in an axial flow Turbine Institute: IIT, Madras.
Development of LES Code & Analysis Methodology for Understanding Flow & Heat Transfer through Turbo-machinery Blades Institute: IIT Kanpur.
Development of Acoustic Analysis Method for Afterburner Screech Liner
Institute: IIT Hyderabad.
Development of Thin Film Sensor for Strain Monitoring Institute: IISc, Bangalore.
Transonic Stall Flutter: Unsteady Flow Over Turbo-machine Blades in Transonic Regime Institute: IISc, Bangalore;.
DNS of Turbo-machinery Blading
Institute: JNCASR
Characterization of Squeeze Film Dampers of Large Engines Institute: Veltech, Chennai;
Studies on Gadolinium oxide Doped Zirconia Thermal Barrier Coating
PI: Prof L Chandrasagar & Dr V Arun Kumar Institute: Dr Ambedkar Institute of Technology, Bangalore.
Manufacturing of Micro Components Through Wire Electric Discharge Grinding (WEDG) PI: Dr V Krishnaraj; Institute: PSG College of Technology, Coimbatore
Development of LES Code & Analysis Methodology for Understanding Flow & Heat Transfer through Turbo-machinery Blades Institute: IIT Kanpur.
Development of Acoustic Analysis Method for Afterburner Screech Liner
Institute: IIT Hyderabad.
Development of Thin Film Sensor for Strain Monitoring Institute: IISc, Bangalore.
Transonic Stall Flutter: Unsteady Flow Over Turbo-machine Blades in Transonic Regime Institute: IISc, Bangalore;.
DNS of Turbo-machinery Blading
Institute: JNCASR
Characterization of Squeeze Film Dampers of Large Engines Institute: Veltech, Chennai;
Studies on Gadolinium oxide Doped Zirconia Thermal Barrier Coating
PI: Prof L Chandrasagar & Dr V Arun Kumar Institute: Dr Ambedkar Institute of Technology, Bangalore.
Manufacturing of Micro Components Through Wire Electric Discharge Grinding (WEDG) PI: Dr V Krishnaraj; Institute: PSG College of Technology, Coimbatore
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'The Indian Government refused a proposal made by Rolls-Royce to finance further development of the Orpheus, which had been specifically aimed at producing a more suitable engine for the Marut.
Other envisioned alternative engines that might have been sourced from the Soviet Union, Egypt, or various European nations did not result in anything of substance. The Gas Turbine Research Establishment also pursued their own development program to improve the Orpheus without external aid, which proceeded to the testing phase with some favourable results, but proved incompatible with the Marut.'
HAL HF-24 Marut - Wikipedia
As I recall reading, RR offered to complete development of the AB version of the Orpheus for the sum of £3 million but GOI did not take the offer up. That disastrous decision condemned the Marut to being an underpowered failure.
Let's hope GOI will be keener to spend what is needed to get Kaveri finished.
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Bro refer better YouTube channels like Defence decode, Alfa defence etc. Do not waste time on such clickbait youthias.
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