LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[AbRaj]

How can weapons cert be done without the aircraft flying due to non delivery of engines by GE ? Surely IAF knows this ? And HAL could not have ordered engines pre planned because orders are low and contract signed later after 3 years. No one places orders expensive components like engines unless a contract is signed. Some one should have asked IAF chief this question?

Same engine is being used in earlier versions of same light fighter for which contract has been signed as early as in 2006. They don’t have necessary 2.5 engines per aircraft necessary for those too.

 

[AbRaj]

You still don't understand the concept of ordersize. Who told IAF to give chump orders like 16-4-16-4 when their Mig21 suqadrons were dwindling ?

What should have they done ? Give an order of 1000 jets, knowing well the HAL’s track record. No one is that stupid. 42 or 110 is not a small quantity when you don’t have existing capability to produce even half a dozen in a year. It’ll take centuries to fulfill that order given HAL-speed. And by consistently non-performing, HAL has made sure that no one is going to believe on their words in future too. They had good opportunity to scale up things during Mk1 and Mk1A but they have failed in both

 

[Nutcracker]

What should have they done ? Give an order of 1000 jets, knowing well the HAL’s track record. No one is that stupid. 42 or 110 is not a small quantity when you don’t have existing capability to produce even half a dozen in a year. It’ll take centuries to fulfill that order given HAL-speed. And by consistently non-performing, HAL has made sure that no one is going to believe on their words in future too. They had good opportunity to scale up things during Mk1 and Mk1A but they have failed in both

Yes , why don't they try order of 1000.
HAL doesn't produce most of the components. It outsources them to MSMEs (So does GE etc), And your MSME are not LM OR BOEING , they could go bankrupt or shut down due to small or no order. Happen's with GE's suppliers too, especially during covid. Now imagine our MSME which are nowhere as well oiled as US - Xhinese MSME.

You should go spend some time to learn how these things happen instead of blabbering without knowledge. Btw Order of 40 was not in single tranche.

 

[AbRaj]

Yes , why don't they try order of 1000.
HAL doesn't produce most of the components. It's outsources them to MSMEs (So does GE etc), And your MSME are not LM OR BOEING , they could go bankrupt or shut down due to small or no order. Happen's with GE's suppliers too, especially during covid. Now imagine our MSME which are nowhere as well oiled as US - Xhinese MSME.

You should go spend some time to learn how these things happen instead of blabbering without knowledge. Btw Order of 40 was not in single tranche.

If I would have been in place of IAF, I too won’t spend a penny on such a useless company either. Better talk to someone who can deliver what they promise. I will keep this rotten organisation at an arms length. This is the company who is assembling planes since WW1 and burning Govt money in the name of TOnTi from UK/USSR/Russia/Germany/US and nothings of their own to even show off after all these TOnTis.

Rest other companies do risk-analysis and risk-mitigation unlike this taxpayers funded babudom. Single trench or not, it took them eternity to deliver even that measly numbers.
And its never the fault of beHAL. Blame US/Russia/France/Isreal/Belgium/Nepal/Bhutan/Congo/Somaliya but not HAL

 

[Nutcracker]

If I was in place of IAF, I too won’t spend a penny on such a useless company either. Better talk to someone who can deliver what they promise. I will keep this rotten organisation at an arms length. This is the company who is assembling planes since WW1 and burning Govt money in the name of TOnTi from UK/USSR/Russia/Germany/US and nothings of their own to even show off.

Rest other companies do risk-analysis and risk-mitigation unlike this taxpayers funded babudom. Single trench or not, it took them eternity to deliver even that measly numbers

Foreign OEM will show door to air mashalls, or ask for kidney and liver if they ask for a plane at such small ordersize whose supply chain doesn't exist. It was same for LCA. Your and IAF's immature behaviour will stop them or any Indian private firm from growing at all.

What do you think we will have to pay if we now decide to buy just 10 new C17 globe master ?

 

[Gandaberunda]

Can you please tell us Who asked this change to begin with? Was it IAF or HAL itself, in view of the successful indigenisation of said component ?
You wanted to keep importing something which in now being locally produced?
Or you are angry that why IAF Chief has exposed beHAL’s badhali in front of the public that was frankly an open secret to begin with. Its a fact that HAL is a sick organization and needs a chemo to stay alive

Can this motor mouth say similar to Russians delayed S-400 delivery? If not then he should shut his ass and watch Su 57 flying in front of him in aero India

 

[ArjunMK1A]

What should have they done ? Give an order of 1000 jets, knowing well the HAL’s track record. No one is that stupid. 42 or 110 is not a small quantity when you don’t have existing capability to produce even half a dozen in a year. It’ll take centuries to fulfill that order given HAL-speed. And by consistently non-performing, HAL has made sure that no one is going to believe on their words in future too. They had good opportunity to scale up things during Mk1 and Mk1A but they have failed in both

For last 15 years HAL is delivering ALH Dhurv, Rudra without any so called delays. We did not receive any RR from Army, Navy and AF on delivery delays. But definitely RR was there when the production started.

Why we are not getting Automobiles on the same day of launch? Rolling out takes some time. Then supply will be consistent.

Now coming to MK1A. We have proof that MK1A exists in when we got the photos now. We know that GE engine is missing for now, since GE still priming up post COVID. IAF delays the procurement for long time, cannot whine about delays in production of initial batches. Weapons integration is not done is the big deal compared to not having the plane in its physical form itself. If this is the concern, an dedicated Project Manager can oversee the project with all scopes defined. He should allow scope creep bakchoid armed forces do.


Now HAL fully produces the Tejas MK1A. Answer is No, Fueslage is being manufactured by mulitple Companies like VEM, Dynamatec etc. All of them were building up an Fighter aircraft for the first time. Since last indigenous program is Marut.


Initial Hiccups will be there and production stabilize over the period.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Now the problem is two fold.

1. IAF expecting Fighter planes purchase as sabji purchase readily available. Even Dassualt with its order book full will take time to deliver.

2. Then Indian specialty of increasing the scope to the point the product will be completely shunned away. Then suddenly procuring an product which failed this scope. Eg. Stryker against Whap.


As for lack of private partners in aircraft manufacturers. This is the big capital extensive venture. Current defence procurement will not allow them to shed huge money only to end up getting egg on their face.

L&T is struggling with their shipyard since DPSU under cutting them and later providing the same sub-contract for the bid they done.


For now we should appreciate our Private companies for lot of things. We have good number of OEM in the form of KSSL, L&T, TASL, SSS, Armasen, Tonbo, MKU, SMPP, Adani along with BDL, BEL and OFB.

We can call them screwdrivergiri. But they are OEM and ODM is foreign companies, Indian Organization like DRDO.

Ex. Apple and Foxconn.

Apple is ODM and Foxconn is OEM. Apple designs the product, Foxconn manufactures the product.


Now take Adani.

Adani is the OEM. But they are primarily manufacturing the products developed by ODM.

Now the ODM
1. IAI
2. DRDO

Basically they will manufacture any product they want.


Now BDL manufacturing starstreak, Javelin, Konkurs, MPATGM. Look this is classic OEM business with various ODM partners are there.


Till our private companies started to see profit with Indian armed forces they will not scale out for capital intensive things like Fighter planes. Till then HAL will be the sole company which manufacture fighter planes.

The second one will be TASL with C-295 production. Question is do they ready to produce next gen fighters

 

[Blademaster]

If I would have been in place of IAF, I too won’t spend a penny on such a useless company either. Better talk to someone who can deliver what they promise. I will keep this rotten organisation at an arms length. This is the company who is assembling planes since WW1 and burning Govt money in the name of TOnTi from UK/USSR/Russia/Germany/US and nothings of their own to even show off after all these TOnTis.

Rest other companies do risk-analysis and risk-mitigation unlike this taxpayers funded babudom. Single trench or not, it took them eternity to deliver even that measly numbers.
And its never the fault of beHAL. Blame US/Russia/France/Isreal/Belgium/Nepal/Bhutan/Congo/Somaliya but not HAL

Sound like a paid poster by foreign lobbies.

 

[Gandaberunda]

You still don't understand the concept of ordersize. Who told IAF to give chump orders like 16-4-16-4 when their Mig21 suqadrons were dwindling ?

IAF was larping for MMRCA and MRFA toys and after larping for 2 decades they got 36 Rafale

 

[AbRaj]

Foreign OEM will show door to air mashalls, or ask for kidney and liver if they ask for a plane at such small ordersize whose supply chain doesn't exist. It was same for LCA. Your and IAF's immature behaviour will stop them or any Indian private firm from growing at all.

What do you think we will have to pay if we now decide to buy just 10 new C17 globe master ?

LCA is not that cheap either. Its price is much closer to many more capable and medium weight fighters. Its just that it was produced inside the country that is why IAF is forced to buy it at such a high price. It doesn’t make any sense to buy light fighter at the cost of medium weight fighters that are easily available in the international market, its a fact proven by no international interest in this light fighter, thanks to its unstable manufacturing lines, steep price for the capability offered and HAL’s poor track record

 

[Blademaster]

LCA cost around $45m per plane. F-16 now cost around $72M per plane.

 

[AbRaj]

Sound like a paid poster by foreign lobbies.

Me ? Yes I’m definitely getting paid by LM/Boeing/Dassault/IAI/UAC and all other companies so that HAL babus produce Hot Gas+0 Aircrafts of promised 11, and 32 or so in last 9-10 years. Im the one getting paid so that HAL can screw IAF’s desperate plans of keeping its squadron numbers above the critical levels.
Otherwise how can anyone support IAF concern for a company, bound by contract and still not delivering anything and there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever. Its top bosses are still getting fat checks and getting retired on time with good pensions and post retirement benefits.
You caught me this time. I should have blended with Jai Ho brigade and maintained the chorus of muh IAF muh ACM, even though I have been blamed many times as Army/Airforce hater for very blunt criticism of them most of the times.

 

[Nutcracker]

LCA is not that cheap either.

Because it includes 18% GST, I hope you know that.
It cost300 crore only.

Export orders likely as Tejas Mark 1A jet is superior to China's JF-17 says HAL MD - Formal contract

Giving a break-up of the cost components, Madhavan said the basic price of the aircraft will be around Rs 25,000 crore while Rs 11,000 crore will be used for ground support equipment and other required infrastructure at the bases and around Rs 7,000 for basic customs duty and output GST. The HAL...

m.economictimes.com

Giving a break-up of the cost components, Madhavan said the basic price of the aircraft will be around Rs 25,000 crore while Rs 11,000 crore will be used for ground support equipment and other required infrastructure at the bases and around Rs 7,000 for basic customs duty and output GST.

 

[sameer]

Can we even afford the operational costs of F35? Isn't it somewhere around $40k per hr for USAF?

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Can we even afford the operational costs of F35? Isn't it somewhere around $40k per hr for USAF?

On par with how much an average toilet seat on the C17 costs.

 

[AbRaj]

For last 15 years HAL is delivering ALH Dhurv, Rudra without any so called delays. We did not receive any RR from Army, Navy and AF on delivery delays. But definitely RR was there when the production started.

Why we are not getting Automobiles on the same day of launch? Rolling out takes some time. Then supply will be consistent.

Now coming to MK1A. We have proof that MK1A exists in when we got the photos now. We know that GE engine is missing for now, since GE still priming up post COVID. IAF delays the procurement for long time, cannot whine about delays in production of initial batches. Weapons integration is not done is the big deal compared to not having the plane in its physical form itself. If this is the concern, an dedicated Project Manager can oversee the project with all scopes defined. He should allow scope creep bakchoid armed forces do.


Now HAL fully produces the Tejas MK1A. Answer is No, Fueslage is being manufactured by mulitple Companies like VEM, Dynamatec etc. All of them were building up an Fighter aircraft for the first time. Since last indigenous program is Marut.


Initial Hiccups will be there and production stabilize over the period.

I don’t think that Air chief was bitching just for delay in engine whic I believe he had to accept it as a fate accompli this time due to foreign OEM being involved on which he has no authority whatsoever. Although HAL can sue it for non fulfilment of the contract. It seems that there is a lot more problems in the Mk1A than whats is openly known and he is not sure if HAL can deliver the planes even after almost two years of delay.

PS: IAF don’t have too many choices either due to their own blunders and plunders. Rafale is not available for next decade. EFT/F16/F18 doesn’t worth the risk. F15 don’t make any sense. Su57 is subpar and F35 is not available
Hope somehow they can pull it off this time with LCA mk2/MWF, otherwise we are royally ficked. It looks a promising product and very suitable for what IAF needs. Mk1/mk1A are subpar solutions due to their small size

 

[Nutcracker]

Hot Gas+0 Aircrafts of promised 11, and 32

0 out of 11 and 32 ? Why are you blabbering without any knowledge on the topic ?

 

[AbRaj]

0 out of 11in last 1.6 years and 32 or so in last 9-10 years

 

[Nutcracker]

+0 Aircrafts of promised 11, and 32 or so in last 9-10 years

It's still false. 36/40 are delivered and lots of them delivered in last 9-10 years.