LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

shade2 said:
Case by this twitter nibbiar to not give "users" control of fighter jet programs


View: https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1880106968200933677
Click to expand...

Users have to be project managers & also own the project. Who else will manage the project otherwise ? The case of Arjun & ATAGS is before you & even the LCA for quite some time between first flight & MP's intervention in 2016 laying the future road map of the LCA & AMCA program.
 
Azaad said:
Users have to be project managers & also own the project. Who else will manage the project otherwise ? The case of Arjun & ATAGS is before you & even the LCA for quite some time between first flight & MP's intervention in 2016 laying the future road map of the LCA & AMCA program.
Click to expand...

I also think this based on the "Navy Model" but the firestarter( same one as our forum? ) gives an example of the Israeli Airforce having control of IAI Lavi but they decided to can that project.

However one big benefit is "user control" will prevent any blame game because of "incompetent DPSU delay", blame will be squarely on shoulders of "user" as it is with Navy
 
shade2 said:
I also think this based on the "Navy Model" but the firestarter( same one as our forum? ) gives an example of the Israeli Airforce having control of IAI Lavi but they decided to can that project.

However one big benefit is "user control" will prevent any blame game because of "incompetent DPSU delay", blame will be squarely on shoulders of "user" as it is with Navy
Click to expand...
The "Navy model" has always been about incremental development. Ironically that's what the IAF followed as well in some projects viz the DARIN upgrades to Jaguars & the MKI project.

Why didn't they take a sympathetic view of DRDO building up an aerospace ecosystem for future programs is a mystery or maybe not so much of a mystery given that the LCA was supposed to be a straight forward replacement of the MiG-21 & the specifications like FBW / FCL , Kaveri TF etc were not needed in at least the initial iterations.

How did it come to be there is a mystery ! Quite obviously one of the agencies may have proposed it & the user accepted it. When realisation of tech didn't happen in a time bound manner , the blame game commenced.

There's always been this bad blood between the development department , the production agency & the user in the history of our indigenous arms products. You can see it across armed forces across time . What further gets the goat of our Armed Forces is that DRDO & HAL in case of the IAF , exercise a kind of veto on defence imports. According to the IAF they over promise & under deliver.

You can see it in the Pilatus vs HTT-40 case , various indigenous replacements of the MKI program & a very good ongoing example is the IJT - Sitara. It's been under development for almost 3 decades now. It was supposed to be inducted into service in the early to mid 2000s.

As of the present , It was supposed to clear trials & be certified last year according to HVT. We still don't know the reason it wasn't. Meanwhile the current IJTs in service with the IAF the HAL Kiran Mk-2 (?) IIRC are virtually on their last legs.
 
Azaad said:
The "Navy model" has always been about incremental development. Ironically that's what the IAF followed as well in some projects viz the DARIN upgrades to Jaguars & the MKI project.
Click to expand...

Incremental development is part of it but it is not the main part of the "Navy model"

Navy model is this :-

Navy WDB( user, spec-maker and designer ) --> BEL,BDL,Imports( suppliers ) --> DPSU Shipyard( assume MDL, builder/manufacturer )

In this model Navy has end-to-end project responsibility, they also get the retired officers to join your BEL, BDL and sit as directors on DPSU Shipyard boards, so all the more control on the production and armament of ships.

Any delays and Navy is blasted by CAG or whoever, there is no "incompetent DRDO and HAL" to get the direct blame.

Meanwhile on the other side :-

Airforce ( customer and spec producer ) --> ADA( Vendor, Design ) --> DPSU or Import suppliers --> HAL( Vendor, Production )

Here since Airforce is only the "buyer" they have no responsibility over the project which is under the ambit of ADA/HAL "vendors", whatever the vendors produce even after delay is then subjected to more spec changes, then they make the changes, go through over 9000 tests it ofc gets delayed and then the loop starts again.

At some press conference then the AF top brass will say " we ordered xyz in 1990, it is 2024 and not delivered :( ".

It is not the AF then that gets all brickbats, AF is innocent victim of "incompetent DPSUs", of course, since AF is only the buyer/customer you see who is buying ADA/HAL jet which is "forced upon" by the Govt

imo the only L from HAL/ADA's perspective is going at everything all at once, Deshi Radar, Deshi fly-by-wire system, Deshi Jet engine, should have gone for impoorts at first for the hard to do sub-systems and then indigenized everything gradually as MLUs for existing Tejas that they would produce.

The cure to his is ofc transition ADA to Air Force control and personnel gradually, they want a jet, they want it in certain numbers, they have to design it and get it built, full responsiblity with them, bulk imports are no solution for their whole force, Govt doesn't have that much money to spend, to be effective vs Chings we need to get on par in the numbers game.
 

View: https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/status/1880082197903995355?s=19


View: https://twitter.com/threadreaderapp/status/1880152600189821371?s=19

Worth its weight in gold !

I'd urge everyone who's interested in knowing the reason the LCA program was so delayed & in between was almost in danger of being junked, to read this thread.

Also look at the spin offs that one project which built up an entire aero space ecosystem literally from scratch, yielded to other programs of the IAF.

Good comparisons with the Chinese approach & the Israeli AF too though once the US asked Israel to stop development of the Lavi it was essentially game over for with the kind of dependencies Israel has on the US there's no way they can go against the US .

Must read IMHO!
 
Spitfire IX said:
www.livefistdefence.com

HAL Under Fire: Narrative Or Fact? - Livefist

Photo source: Deb Rana By K. Singh for Livefist In recent days and weeks there has been a growing amount of rhetoric aimed at the Light Combat Aircraft’s (LCA) production agency Hindustan Aeronautical Limited (HAL). On the face of it this appears to have been sparked by the public comments…
www.livefistdefence.com www.livefistdefence.com

I think that what he says makes sense. What I find curious is the implication that while the private sector needs orders before investing, the state sector does not. Do HAL invest in production infrastructure and facilities without knowing (a) how many fighters will be ordered (b) at what assembly rate (c) how much they will be paid?
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They invest in capacity proportional to the order, so when they had 16+16+8 they didn’t really get above 4-5/year because they had to modify jigs on an ad-hoc basis. I believe they have a separate line for the trainers now too.

But for 40 jets or even 2x that it’s not likely any private company is going to make the massive investments needed hence why every time the idea was floated to give a private company their own production line it’s been met with muted responses.

C- HAL has a peculiar history with this, as a state owned enterprise they will build and deliver without having dues cleared by the services
www.ajaishukla.com

HAL turnover to cross Rs 20,000 crore; but unpaid IAF dues of Rs 17,000 crore means HAL needs bank loans to pay employee salaries

www.ajaishukla.com www.ajaishukla.com

As I said HAL has almost by necessity had to look at diversifying its revenue streams because of this and hence have currently come to the quite surprising figure of 40% of their revenue originating from export customers (likely to drop as LCA MK1A payments start appearing on HAL’s books)
 
abingdonboy said:
They invest in capacity proportional to the order, so when they had 16+16+8 they didn’t really get above 4-5/year because they had to modify jigs on an ad-hoc basis. I believe they have a separate line for the trainers now too.

But for 40 jets or even 2x that it’s not likely any private company is going to make the massive investments needed hence why every time the idea was floated to give a private company their own production line it’s been met with muted responses.

C- HAL has a peculiar history with this, as a state owned enterprise they will build and deliver without having dues cleared by the services
www.ajaishukla.com

HAL turnover to cross Rs 20,000 crore; but unpaid IAF dues of Rs 17,000 crore means HAL needs bank loans to pay employee salaries

www.ajaishukla.com www.ajaishukla.com

As I said HAL has almost by necessity had to look at diversifying its revenue streams because of this and hence have currently come to the quite surprising figure of 40% of their revenue originating from export customers (likely to drop as LCA MK1A payments start appearing on HAL’s books)
Click to expand...
I remember that article.

As it happens I found myself in a similar position dealing with a British state-owned company (a PSU, I think, in Indian terms) which could be up to 6 months late paying its dues to my business. In the end I felt obliged to shut my business down. I could not with good conscience continue receiving goods or services from suppliers while being aware my business could not settle invoices from them until months after they were due. And, that was after I had stopped paying myself!

Result: there was no longer any chance of my business paying taxes to the government. Instead the government paid for my housing and further paid me to do nothing for the 6 months I needed to be unemployed to qualify for a government grant far in excess of what the PSU had been late paying my business. What was the grant for? To start another business doing what I was doing before the government through its PSU forced me out of business. :roflb:

Like HAL aims to do, I diversified my income stream with my next business and dealt with many different businesses and organisations but never another PSU. Not quite true, just one or two where I knew the people who had recommended my business to them..
 
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I see it reported by indiandefenceupates that negotiations with Nigeria and Botswana for Tejas Mk1A have ceased. Disappointing - I thought that Botswana was a good prospect,, given that it had shown interest in SAAB's Gripen in the past IIRC.

Is it time to give up trying to export Mk1A? To me, the only country that seemed likely to buy it was Malaysia. Unfortunately, it did not. Tejas Mk2 would, I think, be far more likely to attract sales. But you do actually have to make something if you want people to buy it, don't you?
 
Spitfire IX said:
I see it reported by indiandefenceupates that negotiations with Nigeria and Botswana for Tejas Mk1A have ceased. Disappointing - I thought that Botswana was a good prospect,, given that it had shown interest in SAAB's Gripen in the past IIRC.

Is it time to give up trying to export Mk1A? To me, the only country that seemed likely to buy it was Malaysia. Unfortunately, it did not. Tejas Mk2 would, I think, be far more likely to attract sales. But you do actually have to make something if you want people to buy it, don't you?
Click to expand...
No one advocating for MK1A exports as of now- not even the LCA fanboys. We have a falling squadrons problem that needs to be addressed first. The topic of export is more like a afterthought.
 
there's no way anyone would Import our Tejas after seeing what air chief said about it. 'We have not recieved even 40 till date' thats a scarring statement. No one will believe in HAL after this. even if we promise it for free
 
Asmodeus said:
there's no way anyone would Import our Tejas after seeing what air chief said about it. 'We have not recieved even 40 till date' thats a scarring statement. No one will believe in HAL after this. even if we promise it for free
Click to expand...
I still hope that someone will buy Mk1A. Some South American country short of money whose fleet of light fighters has run out of hours and needs a cheap fighter? The reason? So HAL can demonstrate it can deliver on time and demonstrate it can supply good after sales service. It would help to instil confidence in HAL as a supplier., making Mk2 easier to sell.

I have for years proposed that HAL forget about the profit margin to win a first export order to demonstrate as outlined above. If they can do so, great! Doubtless the Indian fan base will thereafter predict that every non-5G fighter contract will go to Mk1A but let them dream. One small deal is all that is required for HAL to start building a positive reputation in buyers' eyes.

If the only way to get into a market is to buy your way in, do that or forget about getting into the market.
 
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Spitfire IX said:
I see it reported by indiandefenceupates that negotiations with Nigeria and Botswana for Tejas Mk1A have ceased. Disappointing - I thought that Botswana was a good prospect,, given that it had shown interest in SAAB's Gripen in the past IIRC.

Is it time to give up trying to export Mk1A? To me, the only country that seemed likely to buy it was Malaysia. Unfortunately, it did not. Tejas Mk2 would, I think, be far more likely to attract sales. But you do actually have to make something if you want people to buy it, don't you?
Click to expand...

DancingPeacock said:
No one advocating for MK1A exports as of now- not even the LCA fanboys. We have a falling squadrons problem that needs to be addressed first. The topic of export is more like a afterthought.
Click to expand...

Asmodeus said:
there's no way anyone would Import our Tejas after seeing what air chief said about it. 'We have not recieved even 40 till date' thats a scarring statement. No one will believe in HAL after this. even if we promise it for free
Click to expand...

Nobody is going to import Tejas when the "users" themselves mince no words with how they don't want it.
Except maybe Armenia but they don't have the cash i guess.

GoI should stop this drama of screeching MUH DEFENSE EXFORTS SAAR, can't export when your own "Users" don't want deshi maal and import-maxxx instead
 
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Will appreciate someone help me on this:

I understand almost everyone in this forum defends HAL performance as "order more, get more", i.e. should there be NO big (enough) order, HAL can NOT invest, can NOT increase the production capacity nor the deliver pace.

However, I'm looking at it the other way: isn't HAL a PSU, so called "(Defence) Public Sector Unit"? Means it's sort of a government division. Means it's part of GoI. Means it shares all the responsibility of GoI - an "ultimate" one is to defend the country.

Then why, when come to LCA case, HAL is entitled that it can only invest when there is a big (enough) order? Isn't that only private entity entitled to do that?
Or, head of HAL got a KPI about capacity utilization rate? Like if he didn't make best of capacity (to a certain level), he will loose his year-end bonus? And that KPI is beyond its (and thus GoI) responsibility to defend India?

One step further: exactly what/whose call to decide PSU about capacity, delivery-pace, (low) investment return, when there is urgent needs in national security?

Buck has to stop somewhere, my friends...
 
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