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That 2040 is missing fleet tankers.
Indian Navy Developments & Discussions
- Thread starter 125mm_Smoothbore
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That 2040 is missing fleet tankers.
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So are the amphibious assault ships & landing helicopter docks. These are the combat fleet of proper warships.
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So the Chinese Navy, PLAN has managed to sink/topple over an new nuclear powered submarine berthed at dock.
We got the Betwa warship to topple over and they as competition got an bloody nuclear submarine to topple over.
Unbelievable, now whose loss is greater.
Even the US Navy is no exemption. A few years ago an state of the art US Navy destroyer rammed another US Navy warship in the high seas.A major collision.
Sometimes really strange things happen.
We got the Betwa warship to topple over and they as competition got an bloody nuclear submarine to topple over.
Unbelievable, now whose loss is greater.
Even the US Navy is no exemption. A few years ago an state of the art US Navy destroyer rammed another US Navy warship in the high seas.A major collision.
Sometimes really strange things happen.
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Naval mishaps were common. It is media who make them as sensational stuff.
Indian Navy had lot of accidents in 2010 period. But in recent years Betwa is the sole example. SOP will be fine tuned to avoid the incident in future
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So I've been doing some reading on the paths to be taken by future of larger warship development l, in light of the fact that noone's sure.
Personally it's feeling like Aircraft Carrier will not retain their sole dominance for long in this drone & missile swarm era against battle-cruiser, as fighter jets themselves are becoming mere range extension taxis for stand-off weapons!
Cruiser projects like CG-21 & CG(X) of US Navy failing spectacularly, with even Zumwalt class destroyer/cruiser concept practically discarded & there being no replacement of the Ticonderoga class in sight. The 122 VLS ships were repeatedly proposed for mothballing to cut costs (we could vie for getting some, no AAD vessel in our near future will match their anti-swarm capabilities).
"Aircraft Cruiser" concepts like UXV are being re-evaluated.
Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News
As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...
www.navalnews.com
They now think they could start building a new cruiser-sized ship in the 2030s based on, guess what, hull of the amphibious ships.
In 2013, shipbuilder Huntington Ingalls has proposed a cruiser-like ship based on the hull of the San Antonio-class amphibious ships. The enormous 25,000 surface combatant has 288 vertical launch missile silos for air defense, missile defense, anti-submarine, and anti-ship missiles and provisions for rail and laser guns. The ship would mount an S-band radar to detect ballistic missiles and flight deck and hangar for helicopters. Latest version:
Soviets once made a half-assed attempt towards helicopter cruisers, but now I'm thinking that maybe had merit. A large warships of 15k-25k tonnes range in very limited numbers like Zumwalt, that double as long-range missile ships as well a drone motherships.
A single such ship operating fixed-wing drone with EW mimicking fighter jets, stealthy ones doing CAP with IRST & IR-guide BVRs, rotary ones for anti-sub work etc... plus BMD & LR-AAD missiles, some AShBM, Aero-ballistic glide vehicles, ASM both stealthy & supersonic would take out the whole PN alone.
Opinions? @Blood+ @Binayak95
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Ultimately it just boils down to the fact that whether you want the most bang for your buck or you just want raw power.So I've been doing some reading on the paths to be taken by future of larger warship development l, in light of the fact that noone's sure.
Personally it's feeling like Aircraft Carrier will not retain their sole dominance for long in this drone & missile swarm era against battle-cruiser, as fighter jets themselves are becoming mere range extension taxis for stand-off weapons!
Cruiser projects like CG-21 & CG(X) of US Navy failing spectacularly, with even Zumwalt class destroyer/cruiser concept practically discarded & there being no replacement of the Ticonderoga class in sight. The 122 VLS ships were repeatedly proposed for mothballing to cut costs (we could vie for getting some, no AAD vessel in our near future will match their anti-swarm capabilities).
"Aircraft Cruiser" concepts like UXV are being re-evaluated.
Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News
As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...
They now think they could start building a new cruiser-sized ship in the 2030s based on, guess what, hull of the amphibious ships.
Soviets once made a half-assed attempt towards helicopter cruisers, but now I'm thinking that maybe had merit. A large warships of 15k-25k tonnes range in very limited numbers like Zumwalt, that double as long-range missile ships as well a drone motherships.
View attachment 10977
A single such ship operating fixed-wing drone with EW mimicking fighter jets, stealthy ones doing CAP with IRST & IR-guide BVRs, rotary ones for anti-sub work etc... plus BMD & LR-AAD missiles, some AShBM, Aero-ballistic glide vehicles, ASM both stealthy & supersonic would take out the whole PN alone.
Opinions? @Blood+ @Binayak95
If you're a country with limited budget (read India) that's just concerned with offence-defence then having something like an aircraft cruiser (Russian doctrine) or helicopter destroyer (Japanese) is better. A smaller ship with say 10 VTOL fighters for CAP, 5 helis for SAR/ASW and a fleet of various UAVs; all together with so much modular VLS on board that you don't any escorts whatsoever...just you and a replenishment oiler.
The biggest pro here is that you can easily have more than double the number of such vessels in the price of a carrier.
But if you want to project power and dominate not just a shipping lane, but a whole region no matter where it is...then you'll need a full fledged CBG.
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I'm talking bang for buck as well, mostly rather... Carriers may prove to be vulnerable white elephants (looking at you Vikky 1), especially in northern-IOR where our bigger better land-based fighters can cover most of the area, with some Islands bases.
CBG will definitely have range, I agree. But 2 20k ton battle-cruisers or aircraft-cruisers will definitely be more self-sufficient & their bang may be just as much.
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Not so sure about that. WWII pretty much conclusively that battleships are obsolete. And the sinking of Moskva showed the need for air supremacy over naval assets. If there was a Russian CVB group in the Black Sea, Ukraine wouldn't be able to do much against Russian naval assets.
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Read the whole thing plz
It's not WW2, noone's lobbing shells against ships (that are not railguns atleast). Those battleship & missile age battle-cruisers, aren't the same. Missile swarm is being considered now & Ukraine is hunting at more than expected vulnerability of fighter jets in modern scenario.
And Moskva was a 40 year old ill-maintained hulk whose subsystems didn't work operated by ill-trained crews, even failed to track drones & subsonic incoming missiles simultaneously.
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Future AC armadas can well be expected to be escorted by a fleet of MUMT of USV / UUV & Cruisers / Destroyers / Frigates / Corvettes , escort Submarines & what have you with the former containing their own complement of Drones / Swarm drones & anti drone defensive & offensive capabilities.
We're basically moving into - a too big to fail kind of territory where like today not every country can afford an AC armada ( both CAPEX + OPEX ) but with the caveat the entry & OPEX barriers will get phenomenonally higher.
Of course I don't expect instant adaptations to this theory which means we'd see a few being sunk before lessons are learnt , requisite platforms are inducted , existing ones upgraded & tactics formulated to render such an armada unsinkable.
We're basically moving into - a too big to fail kind of territory where like today not every country can afford an AC armada ( both CAPEX + OPEX ) but with the caveat the entry & OPEX barriers will get phenomenonally higher.
Of course I don't expect instant adaptations to this theory which means we'd see a few being sunk before lessons are learnt , requisite platforms are inducted , existing ones upgraded & tactics formulated to render such an armada unsinkable.
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lots of interesting thoughts and discussion -
some salient points that I feel need be stated:
1. What is your national doctrine when it comes to the navy?
- do you want to keep your coasts free?
- do you want to protect and control SLOCS coming to and out of your ports?
- do you want project an expeditionary force that can reach out and influence a battle far away?
2. Ours lie in between 2 and 3. We definitely desire and have succeeded more or less to maintain SLOCS
and we have nascent expeditionary whims
3. Given the above - the ships be they manned unmanned - will have to sustain operations in harsh weather and heavy seas. Ergo not just keeping pace with your capital ships and survive and sail through storms but also employ sensors and weapons effectively.
4. Point no 3 basically eliminates unmanned warships as they are today and in the future. The C2 is just not there in terms of robustness right now, and Deep Learning based controls simply do not have the data needed to make them reliable - the latter will come with time perhaps.
5. the whole should carriers be built debate - YES you still need carriers - but what has changed is that your engagement ranges are extending.
Look at the new AIM174B on the F18s - or the upcoming AIM 260 from a fleet / ballistic missile defence point of view.
Can modern drones, even with all that we are seeing on the battlefield, conduct complicated missions, defeat hostile EW, evade hostile air defences, and achieve targets? Right now, even with the best of so called AI swarms, NO.
6. What then is the future ? Reduced crew PSCs like the Mogamis - with really dangerous missions being taken over by unmanned vessels deployed from your PSCs - say mine clearing, sub hunting, etc.
The multi VLS Farm heavy warship will become your principal strike asset for carrier less navies, while the carrier will keep evolving into a do everything platform.
some salient points that I feel need be stated:
1. What is your national doctrine when it comes to the navy?
- do you want to keep your coasts free?
- do you want to protect and control SLOCS coming to and out of your ports?
- do you want project an expeditionary force that can reach out and influence a battle far away?
2. Ours lie in between 2 and 3. We definitely desire and have succeeded more or less to maintain SLOCS
and we have nascent expeditionary whims
3. Given the above - the ships be they manned unmanned - will have to sustain operations in harsh weather and heavy seas. Ergo not just keeping pace with your capital ships and survive and sail through storms but also employ sensors and weapons effectively.
4. Point no 3 basically eliminates unmanned warships as they are today and in the future. The C2 is just not there in terms of robustness right now, and Deep Learning based controls simply do not have the data needed to make them reliable - the latter will come with time perhaps.
5. the whole should carriers be built debate - YES you still need carriers - but what has changed is that your engagement ranges are extending.
Look at the new AIM174B on the F18s - or the upcoming AIM 260 from a fleet / ballistic missile defence point of view.
Can modern drones, even with all that we are seeing on the battlefield, conduct complicated missions, defeat hostile EW, evade hostile air defences, and achieve targets? Right now, even with the best of so called AI swarms, NO.
6. What then is the future ? Reduced crew PSCs like the Mogamis - with really dangerous missions being taken over by unmanned vessels deployed from your PSCs - say mine clearing, sub hunting, etc.
The multi VLS Farm heavy warship will become your principal strike asset for carrier less navies, while the carrier will keep evolving into a do everything platform.
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INS Brahmaputra restoration may take over a year, Navy seeks foreign expertise
The restoration of INS Brahmaputra could potentially take over a year or more to make the ship seaworthy, as additional specialized machinery and technical expertise will be required to ensure it is fit for sailing.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ndian-navy-foreign-experts-2609964-2024-10-02
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While what I'm saying may not be absolute, good to know atleast some other people think the same way...So I've been doing some reading on the paths to be taken by future of larger warship development l, in light of the fact that noone's sure.
Personally it's feeling like Aircraft Carrier will not retain their sole dominance for long in this drone & missile swarm era against battle-cruiser, as fighter jets themselves are becoming mere range extension taxis for stand-off weapons!
Cruiser projects like CG-21 & CG(X) of US Navy failing spectacularly, with even Zumwalt class destroyer/cruiser concept practically discarded & there being no replacement of the Ticonderoga class in sight. The 122 VLS ships were repeatedly proposed for mothballing to cut costs (we could vie for getting some, no AAD vessel in our near future will match their anti-swarm capabilities).
"Aircraft Cruiser" concepts like UXV are being re-evaluated.
Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News
As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...
They now think they could start building a new cruiser-sized ship in the 2030s based on, guess what, hull of the amphibious ships.
Soviets once made a half-assed attempt towards helicopter cruisers, but now I'm thinking that maybe had merit. A large warships of 15k-25k tonnes range in very limited numbers like Zumwalt, that double as long-range missile ships as well a drone motherships.
View attachment 10977
A single such ship operating fixed-wing drone with EW mimicking fighter jets, stealthy ones doing CAP with IRST & IR-guide BVRs, rotary ones for anti-sub work etc... plus BMD & LR-AAD missiles, some AShBM, Aero-ballistic glide vehicles, ASM both stealthy & supersonic would take out the whole PN alone.
Opinions? @Blood+ @Binayak95
Stealth UAVs Could Give China’s Type-076 Assault Carrier More Firepower
The Chinese Navy is building Assault Carriers to support amphibious operations, such as a a possible invasion of Taiwan or landings on disputed islands in the South China Sea.
www.forbes.com
Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News
As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...
www.navalnews.com
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So I've been doing some reading on the paths to be taken by future of larger warship development l, in light of the fact that noone's sure.
Personally it's feeling like Aircraft Carrier will not retain their sole dominance for long in this drone & missile swarm era against battle-cruiser, as fighter jets themselves are becoming mere range extension taxis for stand-off weapons!
Cruiser projects like CG-21 & CG(X) of US Navy failing spectacularly, with even Zumwalt class destroyer/cruiser concept practically discarded & there being no replacement of the Ticonderoga class in sight. The 122 VLS ships were repeatedly proposed for mothballing to cut costs (we could vie for getting some, no AAD vessel in our near future will match their anti-swarm capabilities).
"Aircraft Cruiser" concepts like UXV are being re-evaluated.
Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News
As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...
They now think they could start building a new cruiser-sized ship in the 2030s based on, guess what, hull of the amphibious ships.
Soviets once made a half-assed attempt towards helicopter cruisers, but now I'm thinking that maybe had merit. A large warships of 15k-25k tonnes range in very limited numbers like Zumwalt, that double as long-range missile ships as well a drone motherships.
View attachment 10977
A single such ship operating fixed-wing drone with EW mimicking fighter jets, stealthy ones doing CAP with IRST & IR-guide BVRs, rotary ones for anti-sub work etc... plus BMD & LR-AAD missiles, some AShBM, Aero-ballistic glide vehicles, ASM both stealthy & supersonic would take out the whole PN alone.
Opinions? @Blood+ @Binayak95
When y'all nibbiars say "drone swarm" do you mean large loitering munition type drones or the small quadcopter ones with some explosive attached?
Or do you mean those USV submarine drones?
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"Cruise missile like loitering munitions"
It's kind of a convergent evolution where you arrive on the exact same point despite different paths.
> You made a small loitering munition with man-in-the-loop EO guidance, small warhead, similar fuel tank and a wankel engine.
> Range is low so you increase fuel tank and thus size.
> But this range can't be supported by command guidance so you add a rudimentary seeker.
> Warhead is not that effective so you increase the size.
> It gets easily intercepted because of slow speed so you replace the ICE with a turbojet engine.
Now ask yourself, at this point whether it's still a loitering munition or a cruise missile?
Yup; USVs that can momentarily both submerge to defeat anti-surface weapons like 76/127mm main gun or missiles and then pop-out to defeat anti-torpedo countermeasures is going to be one of the biggest headaches for navies in the coming years.
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Not quadcopter against ships ofcourse.
Larger sized long-endurance low IR-signature loitering drones are gonna get suicidal & stealthy very soon, much deadlier than old school ASMs... Rotary drones with dipping sonar & torpedoes can work well in anti-sub, covering more area... Plus high speed auto-homing capable stealthy USVs... Dropped & dormant drone-torpedo activated by sono-buoys would work better that regular minefields... The possibilities are many.
I like this too, didn't think of that idea, would work:
I'd say a "Drone Mothership" naval vessel with such capability may lack the raw brute power of regular aircraft carrier, sending jets that'll themselves launch stand-off weapons but will bring much more bang-for-buck.
Have also come across similar concepts being toyed with (but mostly artworks) here & there.
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Any of y'all nibbiars know the story of how Navy turned from (((buyer's navy))) to 
builders navy
All i know is there is a certain Warship Design Bureau and they design the ships + decide which parts to procure or co-develop, and the actual building work goes to some DPSU shipyard.
As of now most of our surface fleet is built in Indian shipyards only based on Navy made designs.
I don't know which Mahatma Admiral created this design bureau however or what was the Navy's motivation considering there is a lot of malai to be had in importing warships from foreign vendors( France, Italy, Germoney, Holland and ofc Roosi all sell warships ).
Navy overall even has a good progression from importing requirement to indeginization, case in point that our INS Vikramaditya which was a modified Soviet "aircraft carrying cruiser" to the current INS Vikrant which is a purpose build Aircraft Carrier.
Out of the 3 only Navy seems to be the serious force about it's requirements, unfortunately it is least likely to see action in war time
builders navy All i know is there is a certain Warship Design Bureau and they design the ships + decide which parts to procure or co-develop, and the actual building work goes to some DPSU shipyard.
As of now most of our surface fleet is built in Indian shipyards only based on Navy made designs.
I don't know which Mahatma Admiral created this design bureau however or what was the Navy's motivation considering there is a lot of malai to be had in importing warships from foreign vendors( France, Italy, Germoney, Holland and ofc Roosi all sell warships ).
Navy overall even has a good progression from importing requirement to indeginization, case in point that our INS Vikramaditya which was a modified Soviet "aircraft carrying cruiser" to the current INS Vikrant which is a purpose build Aircraft Carrier.
Out of the 3 only Navy seems to be the serious force about it's requirements, unfortunately it is least likely to see action in war time
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