Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Aight lads, I got a treat for you this Sunday. FEEL FREE TO CIRCULATE THIS ON TWITTER ETC. (Credits first: Original work from here, I built upon it.
View: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarshipPorn/comments/19ef3xh/surface_ships_of_indian_navys_western_fleet_vs/)

If all goes well & the gods are good, then Indian Navy surface fleet will double in tonnage over the next 15 years. Comparing at beginning of 2025 & 2040.


Note that, there are some assumptions & considerations.
I'm taking only the surface combat capable fleet including anti-sub & offshore patrol ships, no fast-attack crafts or minesweepers. Minor rounding off of tonnages here & there. Some silhouettes are informed guesses at best (notice LRMFR on IAC 2, P-17B & P-18).

• The IAC-2 is assumed to be a 50k ton skyjumper.
• Assumed tonnages for NG Classes are taken conservatively. P-18 is assumed 10000 tons as Wikipedia, P-17B as 7000 ton, Next generation Corvette is taken 4000 tons.
• P-17B & NGF are assumed same in absence of anything indicating otherwise.
• Retirement age is taken ±40yrs. Rajput, Brahmaputra, Khukri, Veer, Abhay Classes are removed at 2040, Delhi & Khukri stays but will then be just in line for retirement.
• INS Nilgiri is not being counted, but INS Surat is as it's expected to be delivered by December. 8 Talwars considered at 2025 as per delivery schedule.

View attachment 10215View attachment 10214

That 2040 is missing fleet tankers.

 

[Bleh]

That 2040 is missing fleet tankers.

So are the amphibious assault ships & landing helicopter docks. These are the combat fleet of proper warships.

 

[Bleh]

India Pavilion @ADAS 24 Phillipines.

View: https://x.com/i/status/1839604504079081522

 

[Tridev123]

So the Chinese Navy, PLAN has managed to sink/topple over an new nuclear powered submarine berthed at dock.

We got the Betwa warship to topple over and they as competition got an bloody nuclear submarine to topple over.
Unbelievable, now whose loss is greater.

Even the US Navy is no exemption. A few years ago an state of the art US Navy destroyer rammed another US Navy warship in the high seas.A major collision.

Sometimes really strange things happen.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

So the Chinese Navy, PLAN has managed to sink/topple over an new nuclear powered submarine berthed at dock.

We got the Betwa warship to topple over and they as competition got an bloody nuclear submarine to topple over.
Unbelievable, now whose loss is greater.

Even the US Navy is no exemption. A few years ago an state of the art US Navy destroyer rammed another US Navy warship in the high seas.A major collision.

Sometimes really strange things happen.

Naval mishaps were common. It is media who make them as sensational stuff.

Indian Navy had lot of accidents in 2010 period. But in recent years Betwa is the sole example. SOP will be fine tuned to avoid the incident in future

 

[VictorDelta4]

View: https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1840384074491318734

 

[Bleh]

India Pavilion @ADAS 24 Phillipines.

View: https://x.com/i/status/1839604504079081522

So I've been doing some reading on the paths to be taken by future of larger warship development l, in light of the fact that noone's sure.

Personally it's feeling like Aircraft Carrier will not retain their sole dominance for long in this drone & missile swarm era against battle-cruiser, as fighter jets themselves are becoming mere range extension taxis for stand-off weapons!
Cruiser projects like CG-21 & CG(X) of US Navy failing spectacularly, with even Zumwalt class destroyer/cruiser concept practically discarded & there being no replacement of the Ticonderoga class in sight. The 122 VLS ships were repeatedly proposed for mothballing to cut costs (we could vie for getting some, no AAD vessel in our near future will match their anti-swarm capabilities).

"Aircraft Cruiser" concepts like UXV are being re-evaluated.

Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News

As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...

www.navalnews.com

They now think they could start building a new cruiser-sized ship in the 2030s based on, guess what, hull of the amphibious ships.

In 2013, shipbuilder Huntington Ingalls has proposed a cruiser-like ship based on the hull of the San Antonio-class amphibious ships. The enormous 25,000 surface combatant has 288 vertical launch missile silos for air defense, missile defense, anti-submarine, and anti-ship missiles and provisions for rail and laser guns. The ship would mount an S-band radar to detect ballistic missiles and flight deck and hangar for helicopters. Latest version:

Soviets once made a half-assed attempt towards helicopter cruisers, but now I'm thinking that maybe had merit. A large warships of 15k-25k tonnes range in very limited numbers like Zumwalt, that double as long-range missile ships as well a drone motherships.

A single such ship operating fixed-wing drone with EW mimicking fighter jets, stealthy ones doing CAP with IRST & IR-guide BVRs, rotary ones for anti-sub work etc... plus BMD & LR-AAD missiles, some AShBM, Aero-ballistic glide vehicles, ASM both stealthy & supersonic would take out the whole PN alone.

Opinions? @Blood+ @Binayak95

 

[Ayan Barat]

So I've been doing some reading on the paths to be taken by future of larger warship development l, in light of the fact that noone's sure.

Personally it's feeling like Aircraft Carrier will not retain their sole dominance for long in this drone & missile swarm era against battle-cruiser, as fighter jets themselves are becoming mere range extension taxis for stand-off weapons!
Cruiser projects like CG-21 & CG(X) of US Navy failing spectacularly, with even Zumwalt class destroyer/cruiser concept practically discarded & there being no replacement of the Ticonderoga class in sight. The 122 VLS ships were repeatedly proposed for mothballing to cut costs (we could vie for getting some, no AAD vessel in our near future will match their anti-swarm capabilities).

"Aircraft Cruiser" concepts like UXV are being re-evaluated.

Op-Ed: Is it Time for the U.S. Navy to Build the Drone Carrier Warship? - Naval News

As the Pentagon and Congress grapple on determining what to build to meet the “500-ship U.S. Navy goal,” a couple of years-old ideas and artist renderings may lead to a more flexible future for the U.S. Navy’s global operations. BAE Systems' UXV and Naval Group’s “Ocean Avenger” are Potential...

www.navalnews.com

They now think they could start building a new cruiser-sized ship in the 2030s based on, guess what, hull of the amphibious ships.


Soviets once made a half-assed attempt towards helicopter cruisers, but now I'm thinking that maybe had merit. A large warships of 15k-25k tonnes range in very limited numbers like Zumwalt, that double as long-range missile ships as well a drone motherships.
View attachment 10977
A single such ship operating fixed-wing drone with EW mimicking fighter jets, stealthy ones doing CAP with IRST & IR-guide BVRs, rotary ones for anti-sub work etc... plus BMD & LR-AAD missiles, some AShBM, Aero-ballistic glide vehicles, ASM both stealthy & supersonic would take out the whole PN alone.

Opinions? @Blood+ @Binayak95

Ultimately it just boils down to the fact that whether you want the most bang for your buck or you just want raw power.

If you're a country with limited budget (read India) that's just concerned with offence-defence then having something like an aircraft cruiser (Russian doctrine) or helicopter destroyer (Japanese) is better. A smaller ship with say 10 VTOL fighters for CAP, 5 helis for SAR/ASW and a fleet of various UAVs; all together with so much modular VLS on board that you don't any escorts whatsoever...just you and a replenishment oiler.
The biggest pro here is that you can easily have more than double the number of such vessels in the price of a carrier.

But if you want to project power and dominate not just a shipping lane, but a whole region no matter where it is...then you'll need a full fledged CBG.

 

[Bleh]

Ultimately it just boils down to the fact that whether you want the most bang for your buck or you just want raw power.

If you're a country with limited budget (read India) that's just concerned with offence-defence then having something like an aircraft cruiser (Russian doctrine) or helicopter destroyer (Japanese) is better. A smaller ship with say 10 VTOL fighters for CAP, 5 helis for SAR/ASW and a fleet of various UAVs; all together with so much modular VLS on board that you don't any escorts whatsoever...just you and a replenishment oiler.
The biggest pro here is that you can easily have more than double the number of such vessels in the price of a carrier.

But if you want to project power and dominate not just a shipping lane, but a whole region no matter where it is...then you'll need a full fledged CBG.

I'm talking bang for buck as well, mostly rather... Carriers may prove to be vulnerable white elephants (looking at you Vikky 1), especially in northern-IOR where our bigger better land-based fighters can cover most of the area, with some Islands bases.

CBG will definitely have range, I agree. But 2 20k ton battle-cruisers or aircraft-cruisers will definitely be more self-sufficient & their bang may be just as much.

 

[Blademaster]

CBG will definitely have range, I agree. But 2 20k ton battle-cruisers or aircraft-cruisers will definitely be more self-sufficient & their bang may be just as much.

Not so sure about that. WWII pretty much conclusively that battleships are obsolete. And the sinking of Moskva showed the need for air supremacy over naval assets. If there was a Russian CVB group in the Black Sea, Ukraine wouldn't be able to do much against Russian naval assets.

 

[Bleh]

Not so sure about that. WWII pretty much conclusively that battleships are obsolete. And the sinking of Moskva showed the need for air supremacy over naval assets. If there was a Russian CVB group in the Black Sea, Ukraine wouldn't be able to do much against Russian naval assets.

Read the whole thing plz
It's not WW2, noone's lobbing shells against ships (that are not railguns atleast). Those battleship & missile age battle-cruisers, aren't the same. Missile swarm is being considered now & Ukraine is hunting at more than expected vulnerability of fighter jets in modern scenario.

And Moskva was a 40 year old ill-maintained hulk whose subsystems didn't work operated by ill-trained crews, even failed to track drones & subsonic incoming missiles simultaneously.

 

[Azaad]

Future AC armadas can well be expected to be escorted by a fleet of MUMT of USV / UUV & Cruisers / Destroyers / Frigates / Corvettes , escort Submarines & what have you with the former containing their own complement of Drones / Swarm drones & anti drone defensive & offensive capabilities.

We're basically moving into - a too big to fail kind of territory where like today not every country can afford an AC armada ( both CAPEX + OPEX ) but with the caveat the entry & OPEX barriers will get phenomenonally higher.

Of course I don't expect instant adaptations to this theory which means we'd see a few being sunk before lessons are learnt , requisite platforms are inducted , existing ones upgraded & tactics formulated to render such an armada unsinkable.

 

[Binayak95]

lots of interesting thoughts and discussion -

some salient points that I feel need be stated:

1. What is your national doctrine when it comes to the navy?
- do you want to keep your coasts free?
- do you want to protect and control SLOCS coming to and out of your ports?
- do you want project an expeditionary force that can reach out and influence a battle far away?


2. Ours lie in between 2 and 3. We definitely desire and have succeeded more or less to maintain SLOCS
and we have nascent expeditionary whims

3. Given the above - the ships be they manned unmanned - will have to sustain operations in harsh weather and heavy seas. Ergo not just keeping pace with your capital ships and survive and sail through storms but also employ sensors and weapons effectively.

4. Point no 3 basically eliminates unmanned warships as they are today and in the future. The C2 is just not there in terms of robustness right now, and Deep Learning based controls simply do not have the data needed to make them reliable - the latter will come with time perhaps.

5. the whole should carriers be built debate - YES you still need carriers - but what has changed is that your engagement ranges are extending.

Look at the new AIM174B on the F18s - or the upcoming AIM 260 from a fleet / ballistic missile defence point of view.

Can modern drones, even with all that we are seeing on the battlefield, conduct complicated missions, defeat hostile EW, evade hostile air defences, and achieve targets? Right now, even with the best of so called AI swarms, NO.

6. What then is the future ? Reduced crew PSCs like the Mogamis - with really dangerous missions being taken over by unmanned vessels deployed from your PSCs - say mine clearing, sub hunting, etc.
The multi VLS Farm heavy warship will become your principal strike asset for carrier less navies, while the carrier will keep evolving into a do everything platform.

 

[vampyrbladez]

INS Brahmaputra restoration may take over a year, Navy seeks foreign expertise​

The restoration of INS Brahmaputra could potentially take over a year or more to make the ship seaworthy, as additional specialized machinery and technical expertise will be required to ensure it is fit for sailing.​

Sources familiar with the matter informed India Today that the restoration of INS Brahmaputra may take longer than initially expected. Experts believe it could take over a year or more to make the ship seaworthy again.

The ship remains tilted towards the shore due to water accumulation during firefighting operations, making it extremely heavy and difficult to upright. According to officials, specialized machinery and technical expertise will be required to rectify the situation.

A team of international specialists has already inspected the vessel, but the salvage process remains challenging due to the ship's excessive weight caused by water ingress.

The Navy is collaborating closely with foreign agencies to ensure the ship returns to service as soon as possible, but the extensive damage will require meticulous repairs, sources added.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...ndian-navy-foreign-experts-2609964-2024-10-02