AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[randombully]

CAN? Ofcourse it can. And it has been developed aready it seems. Different makers make products in different shape, form, quality but the underlying science & elements are same.

View attachment 16968

A 5+gen jet is actualy supposed to have spherical coverage of RF & EO sensors & hence AFAIK all 5gen jets have X, L & some other band antennas for different functions. Check following past post :

B

Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft'

Sep 2, 2024

A collage of diagrams of EW antennas, GPS, SATCOM, Radar altimeter, TACAN, RWR, IFF, VHF/UHF, L-band, data link (IFDL/MADL).

The diagrams say "preliminary" so final positions may change.




The following is collage of F-22's & F-35's sensors & antennas:

• Bhartiya Sainik

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Pic mentions SDR, i'm assuming it means software defining radio and I'm talking about L band radar with many antennas that can be used to "detect" Stealth tragets from long distance( more than100km) like ruskies are doing in su 57.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Pic mentions SDR, i'm assuming it means software defining radio and I'm talking about L band radar with many antennas that can be used to "detect" Stealth tragets from long distance( more than100km) like ruskies are doing in su 57.

> So it is obvious that our DoD units will make components as per 5gen key characteristics if they wan't to call AMCA as 5gen.
> SDR or S/w Defined Radio simply means that certain functions have been offloaded from H/w to S/w. Radio doesn't always mean voice radio. A 5gen jet won't have an antenna only for encrypted voice chat.
> A pic is not available yet but the diagram shows L-band antenna on tail, so it is obvious that frontal hemisphere sectors will also have it, most probably on the leading edge slats.

 

[randombully]

> So it is obvious that our DoD units will make components as per 5gen key characteristics if they wan't to call AMCA as 5gen.
> SDR or S/w Defined Radio simply means that certain functions have been offloaded from H/w to S/w. Radio doesn't always mean voice radio. A 5gen jet won't have an antenna only for encrypted voice chat.
> A pic is not available yet but the diagram shows L-band antenna on tail, so it is obvious that frontal hemisphere sectors will also have it, most probably on the leading edge slats.

"A pic is not available yet but the diagram shows L-band antenna on tail, so it is obvious that frontal hemisphere sectors will also have it, most probably on the leading edge slats."

Hope it's true, would be pretty useful.
Specially in himalayas where ground based long Range l band radars will struggle due to mountains an smaller but airborne L band radar inside a stealth fighter itself will give us a big edge.


Though power generation could be a problem to incroporate it in AMCA, don't know if f414 will be able to generate enough power.

And so far, only su 57 seems to have this.
Neither f22, f35, j20 seems to have an L band radar.

 

[shauryaman65]

View: https://youtu.be/OqZZqSVszGI?si=M_15bYWHiQ658Yx2

Can AMCA have L band radars and other asymmetric features ruskies have put in su 57.
Like best of both world, stealth similar to f35/j 35 and also asymmetric anti stealth features.
Or are we going completely western style route?

It can, but frankly I don't even think L band radars provide any meaningful advantage that a ground based SAM radar couldn't using its own longer wavelength radar bands.

L band can only help you detect a stealth target, but you will need a short wavelength, high energy band like X band to actually engage the target.

You will almost always use the higher energy bands like X band to achieve a weapons grade lock on a target instead of the L band.

 

[randombully]

It can, but frankly I don't even think L band radars provide any meaningful advantage that a ground based SAM radar couldn't using its own longer wavelength radar bands.

L band can only help you detect a stealth target, but you will need a short wavelength, high energy band like X band to actually engage the target.

You will almost always use the higher energy bands like X band to achieve a weapons grade lock on a target instead of the L band.

Yeah I know, but you can't always depend on ground based L band radars especially in mountains of himalayas, L band and x band long range radars struggle there.
And Just knowing that there is a target 100's of km away In a certain direction with an accuracy of few km's is a big advantage.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

"A pic is not available yet but the diagram shows L-band antenna on tail, so it is obvious that frontal hemisphere sectors will also have it, most probably on the leading edge slats."

Hope it's true, would be pretty useful.
Specially in himalayas where ground based long Range l band radars will struggle due to mountains an smaller but airborne L band radar inside a stealth fighter itself will give us a big edge.


Though power generation could be a problem to incroporate it in AMCA, don't know if f414 will be able to generate enough power.

And so far, only su 57 seems to have this.
Neither f22, f35, j20 seems to have an L band radar.

Well, I never googled which engine generates how much electricity. ut if Rafale's M-88 can give electricity for its inbuilt SPECTRA suite & other atennas then let's hope that F-414 should also be able to support AMCA's suite. Also, i think GaN based trancievers are being developed which have much lesser power requirement.

IDK about J-20 but F-22 & F-35 definitely have it on spine & belly ahead of bay doors. You didn't see the labeled diagram properly

 

[randombully]

Well, I never googled which engine generates how much electricity. ut if Rafale's M-88 can give electricity for its inbuilt SPECTRA suite & other atennas then let's hope that F-414 should also be able to support AMCA's suite. Also, i think GaN based trancievers are being developed which have much lesser power requirement.

IDK about J-20 but F-22 & F-35 definitely have it on spine & belly ahead of bay doors. You didn't see the labeled diagram properly

Pretty sure those on f22 and f35 are not L band radars atleast not in the same sense of the L band radar on su 57.
First those on f22 and f35 are too small,
second You need those L band aesa antennas to face in same direction As your x band aesa radar to detect enemy stealth fighter jets at long distance.
All L band antennas are not radar, L band has many other uses in fighter jets like IFF, EW, SATCOM, situational awareness, secure communication etc

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It can, but frankly I don't even think L band radars provide any meaningful advantage that a ground based SAM radar couldn't using its own longer wavelength radar bands.

L band can only help you detect a stealth target, but you will need a short wavelength, high energy band like X band to actually engage the target.

You will almost always use the higher energy bands like X band to achieve a weapons grade lock on a target instead of the L band.

Yeah I know, but you can't always depend on ground based L band radars especially in mountains of himalayas, L band and x band long range radars struggle there.
And Just knowing that there is a target 100's of km away In a certain direction with an accuracy of few km's is a big advantage.

> AFAIK longer wavelengths are better suited to longer ranges & require bigger size & more power, & vice-versa. So X-band is for shorter distance needing lesser power than L-band.
> Target lock simply means that the target(s) is/are being illuminated more than others, either continiously or in pulses. With older pre-ESA mechanical radars the beam was wider, stronger, alerting the RWR of target. With ESA, beam sharpening, frequency hopping, SAR & other H/w & S/w techniques, a target depening upon sensitivity & processing of its own sensors, may or may not know it has been found, IDed, tracked & targeted.
In 1990s Discovery Channel documentary it was mentioned that F-22 can even find out # of weapons & type, hanging out of 4gen jet w/o alerting it.
> Everywhere, every time, ground radar or AWACS may not be available. Using good engine & lower power GaN trancievers can help a lot.

Pretty sure those on f22 and f35 are not L band radars atleast not in the same sense of the L band radar on su 57.
First those on f22 and f35 are too small,

Pretty sure?
> When our own DRDO has made it of similar size then how you say that it is too small?
> L-band is 1-2 GHz so the wavelength is 15-30cm. Many manufacturers have put their products online with specs. It looks same size. Some makers also mentioned that the product is suitable for supersonic fighter jets.
> Su-57 has arranged the trancievers linearly & embedded in slats. Similarly F-22 & F-35 also show Band-2,3,4 antennas, those could be L-band.











**Above dimensions are in inches

second You need those L band aesa antennas to face in same direction As your x band aesa radar to detect enemy stealth fighter jets at long distance.

That's not a problem at all. A blade antenna can be embedded in control surfaces, rest anywhere in fuselage.

All L band antennas are not radar, L band has many other uses in fighter jets like IFF, EW, SATCOM, situational awareness, secure communication etc

> Yes it is true that L-band can be used for multiple uses like Sat-com, GPS, DME, IFF, TACAN, etc.

 

[randombully]

Pretty sure?
> When our own DRDO has made it of similar size then how you say that it is too small?
> L-band is 1-2 GHz so the wavelength is 15-30cm. Many manufacturers have put their products online with specs. It looks same size. Some makers also mentioned that the product is suitable for supersonic fighter jets.

Even after searching I still haven't found any source that claim those L band antennas on f35 are L-Band radar.
Second, that older Italian guy who runs "millinium 7" has said su 57 is the only one with L-band radar, given his knowledge, I'll trust him.
So those L-band antennas for AMCA seems more likely to be used for other applications instead of being used as radar, if be base it off f 35

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Yeah I know, but you can't always depend on ground based L band radars especially in mountains of himalayas, L band and x band long range radars struggle there.
And Just knowing that there is a target 100's of km away In a certain direction with an accuracy of few km's is a big advantage.

To be honest, L band as anti stealth is mostly hype. If you want realistic detection, you need to go down further to VHF band, where you actually gstart getting good resonance with aircraft features.

J-20 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction J-20 is the world’s third operational fifth-generation stealth fighter aircraft after the F-22 and F-35. It made China the second country in the world af…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

(for comparison, heres rafale - https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/)

And those are best kept in dedicated platforms - I guess even a 25 cm antenna length (small by VHF standards) would be ginormous for fighters, a long shot for AWACs, and an easy thing for ground radars.


BTW, I'm not sure how exactly but the F35 seems to have much better performance even in the VHF band (despite being smaller than competitors) from a downward angle (IDK how but pretty impressivle, since VHF radars will most likely be ground based only)

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Even after searching I still haven't found any source that claim those L band antennas on f35 are L-Band radar.
Second, that older Italian guy who runs "millinium 7" has said su 57 is the only one with L-band radar, given his knowledge, I'll trust him.
So those L-band antennas for AMCA seems more likely to be used for other applications instead of being used as radar, if be base it off f 35

Yea these are either comms or rwr (directional or otherwise).

 

[randombully]

To be honest, L band as anti stealth is mostly hype

As I've said before. Just knowing that there is a target 100's of km away In a certain direction with an accuracy of few km's is a big advantage.

Quote Reply

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Quote Reply

Didnt get my point.

Like I said, L band wont work against most stealthy targets since wavelength is not low enough.

You need to be around VHF band to have a realistic chance if getting a useful radar return.

For clarification, see the radar scattering plots on diff wavelengths. L band might resonate with stealth drones/missiles, but for fighter siize targets you need lower wavelength.

As far as the "rough" detection goes, its an issue with lobe size, its too broad to give more than a general area.... Still enough to vector fighters in the general direction, but at 100 km your area of uncertainty is a circle of dia ~35 km.

 

[randombully]

Didnt get my point.

Like I said, L band wont work against most stealthy targets since wavelength is not low enough.

You need to be around VHF band to have a realistic chance if getting a useful radar return.

For clarification, see the radar scattering plots on diff wavelengths. L band might resonate with stealth drones/missiles, but for fighter siize targets you need lower wavelength.

As far as the "rough" detection goes, its an issue with lobe size, its too broad to give more than a general area.... Still enough to vector fighters in the general direction, but at 100 km your area of uncertainty is a circle of dia ~35 km.

I'm talking about that "rough direction".

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I'm talking about that "rough direction".

Cant have it on fighters

Ground controller is a definite yes, AWACs would be an interesting concept but not sure how practical.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Even after searching I still haven't found any source that claim those L band antennas on f35 are L-Band radar.

> Military is not obliged to disclose everything precisely. Till more info gets disclosed we've to rely on what is available so far & our own comprehension. An Electronics & Telecom engineer or student can help us a lot.
> Now we know that L-band has multiple apps, & the diagrams & the real jet body of F-22 & F-35 shows that GPS, Sat-Com, Band-2,3,4 EW & K-band MDAL/IFDL, Band-3,4 RWR have dedicated antennas.
So the remaining possibilities for a conformal antenna the size within 1 sq.ft. on top side could be short range radar, just scanning & tracking, not for targetting. SAM systems also have separate radars for scanning/tracking & targetting. When flying very low or very high, the up/down looking antenna just has to look 60-70,000 ft. or 18-21 Kms so a small size suffice. Flying at 30,000 ft. also leaves 10 Kms above & below for an enemy jet/missile. So just like EO-DAS, a system of RF-DAS is also important.
> Another aspect which lately caught my eye while going through specs is the antenna gain measured in Db or Decibels. More Db means more power. Passive RWR & comms antenna needs less power than radar i guess. Perhaps this can help us in decoding the usage.

So those L-band antennas for AMCA seems more likely to be used for other applications instead of being used as radar, if be base it off f 35

Just the preliminary diagrams & 1 pic is not sufficient at all. The disclosed one in pic has gain > 0 Db so it may be for generic Comm, Transponder or something, it doesn't look directional.
We'll have to wait for next 10 years when protoype will fly then the IOC jet will fly. Slowly, year by year, the static models & infograpics will get refined at Aero-India. Meanwhile we can discuss the theory.

Second, that older Italian guy who runs "millinium 7" has said su 57 is the only one with L-band radar, given his knowledge, I'll trust him.

Your choice. IDK his background. There are countless people around the world of all age groups with YT channels in different languages. I watch & listen to many but don't conclude anything, i just share & convey whatever i accumulate.

 

[randombully]

Your choice. IDK his background.

That guy does seem to know his shit, the detail in which he explains, you won't find anything close in youtube, check out his channel.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

That guy does seem to know his shit, the detail in which he explains, you won't find anything close in youtube, check out his channel.

Everybody know their own shit
I've watched many of his videos which are informative. He creates comedy with his automatic vaccum cleaner also.
But any enthusiast who spends decade after decade watching documentaries & checking websites, can make his/her own website or channel. And a tech grad will have more advantage.
If you want original & scientific info then you've to do the same homework.

 

[daya]

> Military is not obliged to disclose everything precisely. Till more info gets disclosed we've to rely on what is available so far & our own comprehension. An Electronics & Telecom engineer or student can help us a lot.
> Now we know that L-band has multiple apps, & the diagrams & the real jet body of F-22 & F-35 shows that GPS, Sat-Com, Band-2,3,4 EW & K-band MDAL/IFDL, Band-3,4 RWR have dedicated antennas.
So the remaining possibilities for a conformal antenna the size within 1 sq.ft. on top side could be short range radar, just scanning & tracking, not for targetting. SAM systems also have separate radars for scanning/tracking & targetting. When flying very low or very high, the up/down looking antenna just has to look 60-70,000 ft. or 18-21 Kms so a small size suffice. Flying at 30,000 ft. also leaves 10 Kms above & below for an enemy jet/missile. So just like EO-DAS, a system of RF-DAS is also important.
> Another aspect which lately caught my eye while going through specs is the antenna gain measured in Db or Decibels. More Db means more power. Passive RWR & comms antenna needs less power than radar i guess. Perhaps this can help us in decoding the usage.


Just the preliminary diagrams & 1 pic is not sufficient at all. The disclosed one in pic has gain > 0 Db so it may be for generic Comm, Transponder or something, it doesn't look directional.
We'll have to wait for next 10 years when protoype will fly then the IOC jet will fly. Slowly, year by year, the static models & infograpics will get refined at Aero-India. Meanwhile we can discuss the theory.


Your choice. IDK his background. There are countless people around the world of all age groups with YT channels in different languages. I watch & listen to many but don't conclude anything, i just share & convey whatever i accumulate.

Kuchh bhi disclose nahi karna chahiye.. kisi bhi sarkari karmchari aur sanstha ko.. iti..

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Chinkus

CHINKUS, sounds like snacks