AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Ayan Barat]

No one uses "pure" hydraulic actuators in planes anymore; whenever the term hydraulic is used it's colloquially for Electro-Hydraulic Actuators or EHA.

IDK if hydraulic actuators can move very fast a big control surface.

On the contrary only EHAs can move big control surfaces very fast

Similar to the F-35 EHA I posted earlier is the one on the rudder. Even with 7,000kg of load that actuators manages a velocity of more than 3" per second.

With available tech a similar EMA would be both heavier (the EHA's just 40kg) and a lot slower.

It is logical to reduce space by eliminating hydraullic reservoirs, pumps, pipes, motors by just an EM motor.

Again, we don't use "pure" hydraulics that has all the lines and reservoirs and pumps. We yes ultra compact EHAs that's pretty much self contained in itself with just a cable coming out of the unit.

If we go the pure EMA route to get similar power and speed output like an EHA, then the size of the motor and gearbox would become bigger.

 

[dr.defence]

That’s what Im saying India is not serious about it’s Airforce and military.
Chinese and Pakis will not gonna ask GOI to Invest in its defences when next war will come knocking at the door. We will be fortunate to even able to say “Agar F22 hota to…”
We have rabidly hostile neighbours all around us that came after massacring thousands of us, and a Manufacturing giant to supply unlimited amount of virtually everything that is required to win a war.
All they need is a coordinated campaign like Six Day war.

Everything about AMCA is a mess, much like LCA and MWF. HAL and GOI is myopic. They can’t even manage supply of a jet engine from a manufacturing giant like GE, tell us about their project management capabilities.
PS: Excuse me,I’m out.

Brother I understand from what you are going through. It's absolutely natural to get angry when you see responsible authorities and institutions doing such blunders and showing such a paralyzed behavior.

I know may be you are worried by the current scenario going on in our neighbourhood but believe we have always been such vulnerable and still exist till date making the lines "kuch khas hai ki hasti mitati nhi hamari " true and be assured no war is going to happen as soon those media people are teeling of. And if it occurs than still we are in better position compared to 1962 aren't we.

And I do agree that there are many problems with the top institutions as well as responsible authorities in the country but believe me things are changing and improve further as we proceed ahead .

So moral of the story be hopeful, also criticize where you feel something is not upto mark but also remember, in India we do not produce unfinished defense products just to showcase we believe in genuinely developing indegenous capablities that make some sense and are comparable to global standards, yes there are issues with testing and induction timeline, but I believe they will improve in future.
So be happy and keep smiling .
Sorry if anything feels inappropriate to you.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

No one uses "pure" hydraulic actuators in planes anymore; whenever the term hydraulic is used it's colloquially for Electro-Hydraulic Actuators or EHA.

Obviously, we are past 20th century. That's why i wrote "EHA/hydraullic".

On the contrary only EHAs can move big control surfaces very fast
Similar to the F-35 EHA I posted earlier is the one on the rudder. Even with 7,000kg of load that actuators manages a velocity of more than 3" per second.

External payload has nothing to do with control surface actuator.

With available tech a similar EMA would be both heavier (the EHA's just 40kg) and a lot slower.
Again, we don't use "pure" hydraulics that has all the lines and reservoirs and pumps. We yes ultra compact EHAs that's pretty much self contained in itself with just a cable coming out of the unit.
If we go the pure EMA route to get similar power and speed output like an EHA, then the size of the motor and gearbox would become bigger.

When direct-drive EMAs are into R&D then it is pretty clear what route the industry is taking. The 6gen jets will make it more clear. The engineers will obviously tune the ergonomics.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Brother I understand from what you are going through. It's absolutely natural to get angry when you see responsible authorities and institutions doing such blunders and showing such a paralyzed behavior.

I know may be you are worried by the current scenario going on in our neighbourhood but believe we have always been such vulnerable and still exist till date making the lines "kuch khas hai ki hasti mitati nhi hamari " true and be assured no war is going to happen as soon those media people are teeling of. And if it occurs than still we are in better position compared to 1962 aren't we.

And I do agree that there are many problems with the top institutions as well as responsible authorities in the country but believe me things are changing and improve further as we proceed ahead .

So moral of the story be hopeful, also criticize where you feel something is not upto mark but also remember, in India we do not produce unfinished defense products just to showcase we believe in genuinely developing indegenous capablities that make some sense and are comparable to global standards, yes there are issues with testing and induction timeline, but I believe they will improve in future.
So be happy and keep smiling .
Sorry if anything feels inappropriate to you.

Dr. Defence, that was so touching, as if @AbRaj is hospitalised & you being his doctor is soothing him "don't worry, be happy, keep smiling, get well soon"

 

[Ayan Barat]

External payload has nothing to do with control surface actuator.

Wut!?
I've used the term "load" not "payload"
How much load (in the form of drag or lift) an actuator is moving, by moving the control surfaces has nothing to do with the actuators!?
What are you talking my guy

An actuator would move with almost twice the velocity when there's no load. No load = the aircraft is standing on the runway and there's no aerodynamic forces.

When direct-drive EMAs are into R&D then it is pretty clear what route the industry is taking. The 6gen jets will make it more clear. The engineers will obviously tune the ergonomics.

I thought we're talking what's currently there in the near future instead of what could be

From that POV we can also say that in 6th generation fighters there will neither be any actuators nor control surfaces; everything would be bleed air controlled

 

[Bleh]

Look what I came across today

NGL i almost cried back when i heard we're pulling out of FGFA after having invested almost a billion dollars!
But truth is now I don't think we're ever gonna have a super maneuverable AHCA, maybe something like the NHAD doing strike missions like a Mach3 capable long ranged stealth fighter-bomber.


But a stealthy HF-42 could definitely be possible instead of that gay Maroot 2.0 idea... or a stealthy LCA Mk3

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Wut!?
I've used the term "load" not "payload"
How much load (in the form of drag or lift) an actuator is moving, by moving the control surfaces has nothing to do with the actuators!?
What are you talking my guy
An actuator would move with almost twice the velocity when there's no load. No load = the aircraft is standing on the runway and there's no aerodynamic forces.

That means air resistance. "load" is not appropriate. Please write precisely to avoid confusion.

I thought we're talking what's currently there in the near future instead of what could be
From that POV we can also say that in 6th generation fighters there will neither be any actuators nor control surfaces; everything would be bleed air controlled

> There is no definition of # of years of "near future". The next obvious product is a 6gen fighter.
> Bleed-air controlled would basically mean TVC or Thrust vector Control. For that, just like thrusters in Harrier, F-35B, the thrusters would have to be positioned in extremeties of the jet.
I can't comment on its efficiency much, i have not googled about it. Who knows may be USA, Russia might have experimented on it.
F-15 SMTD/VISTA had ventilated flat nozzles.
F-18 HARV had nose mounted stuff for vortex control.
Bleed air can provide yaw, pitch, roll but may not give good agility.
Some aerodynamic functions may not be possible done by slats, flaps, spoilers.
If there is engine flame-out then the control surfaces can still function manually or by batteries but bleed-air won't be available.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

yes. I’m blackpilled.View attachment 17629

Let's avoid slang language & not misuse humor. There are people of various agegroup, background, even some females. Your meme calls other members & even their parents as mother-F** & sister-F**
@SKC , i request to have such replies deleted, thanks.

 

[Ayan Barat]

That means air resistance. "load" is not appropriate. Please write precisely to avoid confusion.

Galti ho gayi Maalik, maafi

Waise zara ye banane waali company ko bhi bata dete to meharbani hoti, zaahil load keh rahein the

> There is no definition of # of years of "near future". The next obvious product is a 6gen fighter.

There's is as we're talking about 5th gen fighter, AMCA, about to come in service in next decade or so

> Bleed-air controlled would basically mean TVC or Thrust vector Control.

No, absolutely not
TVC is changing the direction of the thrust while bleed air is using high pressure air to change the aerodynamic properties of the wing by means of things like Coanda effect

This is part of what's colloquially called "flapless plane" technology

Who knows may be USA, Russia might have experimented on it.

It's been more than 14 years since BAE Systems Demon has flown; a flapless technology demonstrator UAV

Some aerodynamic functions may not be possible done by slats, flaps, spoilers.

Again not; here's another UAV from BAE that uses similar blown air set-up to complete do away with flaps

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Look what I came across today View attachment 17630

NGL i almost cried back when i heard we're pulling out of FGFA after having invested almost a billion dollars!
But truth is now I don't think we're ever gonna have a super maneuverable AHCA, maybe something like the NHAD doing strike missions like a Mach3 capable long ranged stealth fighter-bomber.
View attachment 17634

But a stealthy HF-42 could definitely be possible instead of that gay Maroot 2.0 idea... or a stealthy LCA Mk3View attachment 17632View attachment 17636

Bleh can't you keep thread civilized ?

It looks like you won't stop your age old shit habit till you get kicked by someone ?

Gay maarut ? What kind of language it is ?

Did any say Gay jewscuks , So that you got hurt ?

Bleh Don't try to insult Hinduism in any way !

Keep your Rice bag habit away while staying in forum.....

Maaruthi 🕉


Your old habit


@Azaad is right "laathon ka bhoot baaton se kahan maante hain"

@porky_kicker bhai & @Azaad bhai are right

Bleh don't use your cunning tactics here !

 

[Kontakt5]

View attachment 17578View attachment 17579
Seems too small for hydraulic on f 35, no bump at all.

The Hydraulic actuators are in these bumps, they are not ultra-miniaturized EM actuators
Notice the same kind of bumps present on the F-35C? The F-35A does not have the control surfaces on the outside of wing therefore only needs 2 actuators that are hidden in the fuselage.

 

[JTP]

How many people are there on this forum that regularly goes up to the extent of using CAD and 1:1 scaling just to better clarify their simplest of points? Or digs up, with complete backing that HIMARS uses RLG as opposed to MEMS on Pinaka.
So please, don't go that route

And if you find it derisive then I don't know where exactly you're getting it misunderstood. Stop behaving like all of my sentences started with "you're an absolute idiot, you don't know nothing, I'm telling this so it's true, there's no proof because I'm telling it". I put my opinion, he countered it using his points and then I countered the points.
And if it's just the banter of "Ohh Naiyo Naiyo" that irked you so much then I'm really sorry for that but I don't think there was anything derogatory in saying "no"

C'mon man you can make do without the snarky comments and sarcasm. People will be more receptive when you avoid those. Otherwise, your posts were very informative. Good research.

 

[Bleh]

Bleh can't you keep thread civilized ?

It looks like you won't stop your age old shit habit till you get kicked by someone ?

Gay maarut ? What kind of language it is ?

Did any say Gay jewscuks , So that you got hurt ?

Bleh Don't try to insult Hinduism in any way !

Keep your Rice bag habit away while staying in forum.....

Maaruthi 🕉
View attachment 17637

Your old habit
View attachment 17638

View attachment 17643@Azaad is right "laathon ka bhoot baaton se kahan maante hain"

@porky_kicker bhai & @Azaad bhai are right

Bleh don't use your cunning tactics here !

View attachment 17644

Lol ok
Reported

 

[SKC]

Let's avoid slang language & not misuse humor. There are people of various agegroup, background, even some females. Your meme calls other members & even their parents as mother-F** & sister-F**
@SKC , i request to have such replies deleted, thanks.

Multiple warning given to multiple users multiple times. Avoid having one to one debate in main threads. Take that out to ChitChat thread.
Also, avoid name calling, abusive language as much as possible. You are free to disagree with each other but that does not give you right to start abusing someone outright.​

 

[BON PLAN]

Korean one is not a 5th gen, period.
The turkish one, well, it flew alright... and that's about the only thing it can do (and will be able to do for the foreseeable future) .

No.
Korean one is a multi step program : first without internal bay, so not really as stealthy as 5th bird. In a future block it will be fitted with a internal bay.
It is a risk less approach compare to KAAN.

KAAN made a not impressive first flight : in a very low G flight, with wheels out....

My bet is that Korean bird will be fastly ready and more potent.

 

[BON PLAN]

I like this pic.

 

[randombully]

View attachment 17690
I like this pic.

What's the use of focusing this much on stealthifying a single engine delta canard with straight vertical stabilizer that will carry external payload.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Criticize where there's a valid reason to do, don't just make up whatever you like

A modern jet is made up of hundreds of different subsystems; radar, canopy jettison, ejection, life support, control, display, sensors, engine control, fuel control, fuel storage, engine, control surfaces, landing gears, actuation, doors and so on.
In all the tests, especially the initial ones you try to use as less of different subsystems as possible so that if something fails it becomes easier to trace it back to one subsystem.
Another point is that you want some kind of redundancy in case of a failure as chances of one are very high.

Ever since the first jet with retractable landing gears have flown the standard practice is to not just disable the landing gears retraction system but also to physically lock them in place during the very first flight so in case everything fails you'd have atleast something to land on.

Here's an old footage of first flight of F-35

View: https://youtu.be/fS5SlVZxJWY

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Galti ho gayi Maalik, maafi

Koi baat nahi beta, galti hum sabse hoti hai, bas usse seekh lena chahiye.

Waise zara ye banane waali company ko bhi bata dete to meharbani hoti, zaahil load keh rahein the
View attachment 17640

Bcoz this is an internal part & their customers are qualified & understand the technical vocabulary.
But here most members are from various background incl. non-tech, just enthusiasts for time pass.

There's is as we're talking about 5th gen fighter, AMCA, about to come in service in next decade or so

Let's not waste time over timeline when we all got the point.
For West the next product is 6gen
For us the next product is 5gen in same timeline

No, absolutely not
TVC is changing the direction of the thrust while bleed air is using high pressure air to change the aerodynamic properties of the wing by means of things like Coanda effect
This is part of what's colloquially called "flapless plane" technology

Yes i know that obviously hence I said "basically", not "exactly", as both things use pressurised air only, one from the exhaust, other from mid-engine stages. Thrust is a generic tech-term. Specifically we can say exhaust thrust, & then bleed-air thrust like used in Harrier's RR engine.
Anyways, the point is to understand the technology & feasibility.
Honestly & obviously i cannot know all the Aeronautical Engineering terminologies, but the Coanda effect is already used since previous century on flaps & slats of civil & military jets for takeoff, landing, low speed, roll, pitch. During roll, when one side slat, flap, aeleron moves then the Coanda effect works on 1 side & the air resistance/friction works on other side. Some transport aircrafts use jet engine mounted on top of wing to increase lift. The Slats use the natural air flow, not the engine bleed air

It's been more than 14 years since BAE Systems Demon has flown; a flapless technology demonstrator UAV

Again not; here's another UAV from BAE that uses similar blown air set-up to complete do away with flaps
View attachment 17645

If R&D is happening since 14yrs then we can't say that it is a distant future tech, may be 6gen might use it if its efficiency is good. May be the next stealth jet after B-21 might use it. Time will tell.


Then there is something called "Fluid TVC"



Some domestic websites are reporting that IIT Kanpur & ADA are working on Fluid TVC for Ghatak UAV.



But i wonder if Coanda effect / Fluid TVC / Bleed-air can give high agility, high AoA, tight turns, Cobra, etc kind of maneuvers. Some of these require afterburner.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1857371240194830765