AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[randombully]

but sadly that certain time was more than one two decades ago

"But sadly"
? ? ? ?????????

 

[Nutcracker]

"But sadly"
? ? ? ?????????

my expertise is more in brainrot shitposting.

 

[Blood+]

Stealth planes are usually optimised against X, Ku, K and Ka band radars; wavelengths ranging from 2.5 to 1cm. There's absolutely nothing "micro angle" in these.

You're not making a gun where you need a tolerance of ±0.001mm to function properly.

Stop this unnecessary DhotiShivering for perhaps the least important of the required tech that we pretty much already have.

Dude, quit wasting your time, he's a known troll from DFI days.

 

[Anants]

Ahhh thanks Mate and my expertise is more in brainrot shitposting.
Anyways just wanna end this stupid debate with two points before I move on to my usual yapping.

• Our condition in high-end CNCs is nothing like what we've in say chip building or genetics research. Up until a certain time there was indeed huge dependency on foreign tech but sadly that certain time was more than one two decades ago. We now have premium Haas made CNCs machines in even the INSAS churning OFBs. Indian CNC manufactures like Jyoti are exporting machines to countries like Canada and USA. All the foreign research centres that we utilise for R&D are out of the influence of USA or EU. With each passing month a new start-up pops here that has done something way more important like axial-flux motors or actuators but sadly they just go unnoticed as no one cares about start-ups here in India if they're not into e-com or delivery.
The current scenario is in absolutely no way as dire as it's being portrayed.

• Are CNC machine sales restricted by big countries like USA or EU? Absolutely yes, but like everything there's caveat in this too. The sales is restricted in just two types of machines.
> Extremely precise 5-axis machines that can work on workpieces as big as rooms. The reason being, these machines are the only thing that can be used to make the propeller of a modern ultra-quite submarines. You want absolute level of tolerance while machining a propeller as even a single imperfection can cause enough noise on SONARs to get to detected.
There are just handful of these machines and all are GPS enabled, continuosly tracked systems.
> Ultra precise 5-axis CNC machines, especially lathes that can work on moderate sized workpieces.
These are used for making Zippe-Type gas centrifuges required for enrichment. I don't think I need to elaborate further on why these are regulated.

Other than these nothing is restricted. Infact you can buy most of the parts from AliExpress.

KXG Series - Jyoti CNC Automation Limited

KXG Series provide big size gantry type 5-Axis machine with very large accessibility to the table and the work piece.

jyoti.us.com

Ayan the above CNC machine - is it same Precise machine you are talking about? if no can you give examples. And any inkling if private or public sector making any efforts to make them here? Given we are manufacturing submarines and even russian submarines are known to be quiet - how are they or us machining propellers?

 

[705-Lira]

AMCA is turning out to be a big failure in making, Indian dependence on western and by extension Israel and East Asians machining tools is turning out to be a hole too big to fill.

In few years IAF will start crying for F-35 no matter the consequences.

Ye duniya khatam ho jayegi lekin iss forum ka Randi-Rona kabhi khatam nahi hoga

 

[Ayan Barat]

Dude, quit wasting your time, he's a known troll from DFI days.

How can I when I'm too

Ayan the above CNC machine - is it same Precise machine you are talking about?

Yup
The thing with CNCs are that as you go down the size the tolerances decrease and vice-versa. I mean it's just common sense, 1% of 1cm and 1% of 1m.
And propeller are weird as they're big in size but require precision. So you need bit more of an effort in making such machines.

The Jyoti CNC machine you posted has a bed area of 9mx2.5m so if the propeller can fit inside this it can be machined pretty effortlessly. Also as most of the propellers tend to use pitch adjustable blades, they can easily be machined in smaller CNC by doing just one blade at a time.

But sometimes you need a monolithic propeller for various reasons and to get an idea of size here's one

And any inkling if private or public sector making any efforts to make them here?

I don't have any concrete source to comment on this but given the usual attitude of "want profits with as less CapEx as possible" I don't think there would be much.

Because of this thing defence manufacturing here can't get anything from what's called COTS. They've to make most of the things from scratch. We're discussing propellers in AMCA thread so to add a bit of relevance, DRDO had to "waste" time and resources in developing the whole process of isotherm forging in-house for AMCA components because there was no COTS here.

Given we are manufacturing submarines and even russian submarines are known to be quiet - how are they or us machining propellers?

It would be really tough to get this info from open source. But if guessing is allowed then I'd guess for Arihant it would have been local with Russian inputs and the same with French for Scorpene.

 

[Anants]

Because of this thing defence manufacturing here can't get anything from what's called COTS. They've to make most of the things from scratch. We're discussing propellers in AMCA thread so to add a bit of relevance, DRDO had to "waste" time and resources in developing the whole process of isotherm forging in-house for AMCA components because there was no COTS here.

Yes not many understand .. in India making next gen platform .. means developing tooling and components inhouse which in some other nations case can simply be outsourced. Eg. Replacement for once sanctioned Moog actuators. Maybe my memory is failing but in first 2000's decade - I thought I read that India had already developed alternative actuator. But its only now - it seems that India has been able to produce a replacement actuator certified to be used in LCA. Almost 2 decades - for getting replacement component. This tells about how far behind India is in the Learning Curve and far we still need to go to achieve 2 decade back technology level while also need to ensure they catch up to existing strides made in technology and manufacturing process. A tough cookie ...

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Yes not many understand .. in India making next gen platform .. means developing tooling and components inhouse which in some other nations case can simply be outsourced. Eg. Replacement for once sanctioned Moog actuators. Maybe my memory is failing but in first 2000's decade - I thought I read that India had already developed alternative actuator. But its only now - it seems that India has been able to produce a replacement actuator certified to be used in LCA. Almost 2 decades - for getting replacement component. This tells about how far behind India is in the Learning Curve and far we still need to go to achieve 2 decade back technology level while also need to ensure they catch up to existing strides. A tough cookie ...

They produced it like 10 years ago. It's not 2 decades time. But, obviously someone was bribed to keep the gravy train running.

 

[Anants]

They produced it like 10 years ago. It's not 2 decades time. But, obviously someone was bribed to keep the gravy train running.

I thought reading some where before 2012's they had developed actuator. But memory fails me. Bolded if true is sad.

 

[Suryavanshi]

How can I when I'm too

Yup
The thing with CNCs are that as you go down the size the tolerances decrease and vice-versa. I mean it's just common sense, 1% of 1cm and 1% of 1m.
And propeller are weird as they're big in size but require precision. So you need bit more of an effort in making such machines.

The Jyoti CNC machine you posted has a bed area of 9mx2.5m so if the propeller can fit inside this it can be machined pretty effortlessly. Also as most of the propellers tend to use pitch adjustable blades, they can easily be machined in smaller CNC by doing just one blade at a time.

But sometimes you need a monolithic propeller for various reasons and to get an idea of size here's one
View attachment 17532

I don't have any concrete source to comment on this but given the usual attitude of "want profits with as less CapEx as possible" I don't think there would be much.

Because of this thing defence manufacturing here can't get anything from what's called COTS. They've to make most of the things from scratch. We're discussing propellers in AMCA thread so to add a bit of relevance, DRDO had to "waste" time and resources in developing the whole process of isotherm forging in-house for AMCA components because there was no COTS here.

It would be really tough to get this info from open source. But if guessing is allowed then I'd guess for Arihant it would have been local with Russian inputs and the same with French for Scorpene.

View: https://youtu.be/ZUU_1LcrnuA?feature=shared

 

[Blood+]

Just pray to lord that no war is forced upon us otherwise all the services will face the wrath due to weak airforce

Or, just take a leaf out of the Viet Cong/ Hamas hand book, i.e. go underground.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It is good to see that some people are tracking the industry.
If we can make LCA & already started making AMCA prototype then i guess we can make future jets too.
We all undestand what is required to be done but can only wish & pray that GoI/MoD's funding & facility expansion happens on time & the private firms also do the needful.
Let's move on....

 

[randombully]

Some discord intel on amca( no source so unconfirmed)

 

[randombully]

Will amca use electronic actuators or hydraulic?

 

[AbRaj]

Stealth airframe is all about micro angles… if we dont have the most precise machining tools with almost negligible thermal back ..

We will never be able to match what USA did in even 90s with F-22 prototypes

You can find a lot of open source data on KAI KF-21 Boramae ( check the dedicated thread on SFF ). CNC Machines are important but not restricted technology anymore ( except for shady countries and terrorist organisations). A lot of vendors are from US, EU, Japan and SoKo are producing these machines and have their products and services even in India

 

[Ayan Barat]

Will amca use electronic actuators or hydraulic?

EM actuators are never used in the primary flight surfaces of a fighter, it's always hydraulic

 

[AbRaj]

Y

Will amca use electronic actuators or hydraulic?

Yesss. It’s a 69th gen fighter plane and will be equipped with all the fantasies you have and even your future fantasies too.
It’s shaping up nicely in the Multiverse. I beg you to hold your breathe and wait. Phleeese, I’m begging you…..

 

[Blood+]

Y

Yesss. It’s a 69th gen fighter plane and will be equipped with all the fantasies you have and even your future fantasies too.
It’s shaping up nicely in the Multiverse. I beg you to hold your breathe and wait. Phleeese, I’m begging you…..

Was that really necessary??

 

[randombully]

Was that really necessary??

Pata nahi bhai, electronic ya hydrolic actuators hi puucha tha, usme bhi iske andar machgyi. His mind regarding amca is too negative, he needs to learn from Pakis on how to take copium.

 

[AbRaj]

Was that really necessary??

AMCA is becoming a joke now, not much different from Project AZM/PFX. People are taking it as a funny/jokes thread.
It’s stupid to continuously speculate about something so far fetched. Otherwise it will look like an IDRW blog aka will/would/can/could/should forum. Let them come with something at least that proves that they are indeed serious about the project, apart from those models we see regularly on Aero-shows.
Chinese, Koreans and even Turks all started late and today all have either a production ready product or at least have multiple flying prototypes. What does we have apart from a paper drawing?