AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[concard]

Look what I came across today View attachment 17630

NGL i almost cried back when i heard we're pulling out of FGFA after having invested almost a billion dollars!
But truth is now I don't think we're ever gonna have a super maneuverable AHCA, maybe something like the NHAD doing strike missions like a Mach3 capable long ranged stealth fighter-bomber.
View attachment 17634

But a stealthy HF-42 could definitely be possible instead of that gay Maroot 2.0 idea... or a stealthy LCA Mk3View attachment 17632View attachment 17636

$1 billion in FGFA? We invested $300 million for the development of the prototype and this was in 2009. However, Russians wanted to milk us dry by asking us to invest further $30 billion for development and production of some 100 fighters without any transfer of technology. So basically, we were getting zilch. After the aircraft carrier deal where they jacked up the price from $900 million to $3.2 billion they tasted blood. Given we had a slave cum scumbag as PM who knew nothing other than licking Antonio Maino boots, they thought we will accept their terms.

Thankfully after the new government came in we backed out. We can no longer run to Russia for weapons. They are firmly in the lap of the Chinese. You are basically playing with fire by having too much dependence on them.

India to invest $25 billion in fifth-generation fighter joint project with Russia — media

The aircraft is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter, and will be the first operational aircraft in Russian service to use stealth technology

tass.com

Good luck building a military industrial complex by outsourcing your development and production to another country. Build the damn 97 Tejas MK-1A and deliver it to IAF and simultaneously start work on Tejas MK2. Meanwhile build the technology which is going to be used on AMCA like AESA Radar, Avionics, sensors, Engine etc. Koreans and Turks have only designed and built the aircraft body. Rest of the stuff like AESA radar, avionics, Engine are imported from US companies. And they have flown the prototype in very short time. There is no reason why we can't do the same with Tejas, ORCA, and AMCA.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Look what I came across today View attachment 17630

NGL i almost cried back when i heard we're pulling out of FGFA after having invested almost a billion dollars!
But truth is now I don't think we're ever gonna have a super maneuverable AHCA, maybe something like the NHAD doing strike missions like a Mach3 capable long ranged stealth fighter-bomber.

Back to what I think are the basics ...

In the 1980's it was recognised that IAF's fleet of MiG-21 would need replacement in the future. With a large number of aircraft required it was an opportune time to consider establishing an indigenous fast jet design and production programme. So was born the LCA programme. Subsequently the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA programmes were launched - all intended to equip India's armed forces.

LCA, Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, plagued by delays, have failed to provide the aircraft expected by IAF. Confidence regarding the delivery date of AMCA to IAF must be low. Given the reported procurement of J-35 by Pakistan within 2 years. It is time for a degree of confidence regarding the delivery schedule for a 5G fighter for IAF.

Embarking on development of a 5G fighter with Russia further raises uncertainty over when IAF will see a 5G fighter enter service. With Pakistan reportedly procuring J-35, the only way IAF can be certain of having a 5G counter to J-35 before 2035 will be to buy a developed 5G fighter.

I therefore suggest negotiating an order for a developed 5G fighter ASAP. Arranging assembly in India would delay the delivery of a 5G to IAF for so long that it would be a pointless exercise - IAF would be receiving AMCA a small number of years later.

 

[AbRaj]

$1 billion in FGFA? We invested $300 million for the development of the prototype and this was in 2009. However, Russians wanted to milk us dry by asking us to invest further $30 billion for development and production of some 100 fighters without any transfer of technology. So basically, we were getting zilch. After the aircraft carrier deal where they jacked up the price from $900 million to $3.2 billion they tasted blood. Given we had a slave cum scumbag as PM who knew nothing other than licking Antonio Maino boots, they thought we will accept their terms.

Thankfully after the new government came in we backed out. We can no longer run to Russia for weapons. They are firmly in the lap of the Chinese. You are basically playing with fire by having too much dependence on them.

India to invest $25 billion in fifth-generation fighter joint project with Russia — media

The aircraft is a single-seat, twin-engine jet fighter, and will be the first operational aircraft in Russian service to use stealth technology

tass.com

View attachment 17714

Good luck building a military industrial complex by outsourcing your development and production to another country. Build the damn 97 Tejas MK-1A and deliver it to IAF and simultaneously start work on Tejas MK2. Meanwhile build the technology which is going to be used on AMCA like AESA Radar, Avionics, sensors, Engine etc. Koreans and Turks have only designed and built the aircraft body. Rest of the stuff like AESA radar, avionics, Engine are imported from US companies. And they have flown the prototype in very short time. There is no reason why we can't do the same with Tejas, ORCA, and AMCA.

That is what I was saying. Go stepwise like everyone else who did it successfully ( except US F35 and F22 maybe). First design and LO airframe with all other Components in mind like Conformal sensors and avionics) and produce it and start testing ASAP. No harm in using interim/foreign components in this phase like radars, engines etc which can be fitted later depending on the availability.
Its how Light Tank Project Zorwar is going on and its how Chinese, koreans and russians did it. And today they have a product ( even if it’s suboptimal at present) and are going to achieve their final target, more or less on time. While India is still producing models and paper drawing. Imagine the time it will take to gather all the flight data even of miraculously they will come up with a better design in this or in the next decade. It will be a 2050 timeframe for series production

 

[AbRaj]

Back to what I think are the basics ...

In the 1980's it was recognised that IAF's fleet of MiG-21 would need replacement in the future. With a large number of aircraft required it was an opportune time to consider establishing an indigenous fast jet design and production programme. So was born the LCA programme. Subsequently the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA programmes were launched - all intended to equip India's armed forces.

LCA, Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, plagued by delays, have failed to provide the aircraft expected by IAF. Confidence regarding the delivery date of AMCA to IAF must be low. Given the reported procurement of J-35 by Pakistan within 2 years. It is time for a degree of confidence regarding the delivery schedule for a 5G fighter for IAF.

Embarking on development of a 5G fighter with Russia further raises uncertainty over when IAF will see a 5G fighter enter service. With Pakistan reportedly procuring J-35, the only way IAF can have a 5G counter to J-35 before 2035 will be to buy a developed 5G fighter.

I therefore suggest negotiating an order for a developed 5G fighter ASAP. Arranging assembly in India would delay the delivery of a 5G to IAF for so long that it would be a pointless exercise - IAF would be receiving AMCA a small number of years later.

Indians love Shortcuts/Jugaad. I mean designing, developing and Producing something you need is too much of a work. How can anybody prodce a product they need so much. It must be imported from Outside and it must be very expansive, and it must be imported “on emergency” basis.
And if all that fails, we can always go for our favourite weapon ie Making excuses.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Build the damn 97 Tejas MK-1A and deliver it to IAF and simultaneously start work on Tejas MK2. Meanwhile build the technology which is going to be used on AMCA like AESA Radar, Avionics, sensors, Engine etc. Koreans and Turks have only designed and built the aircraft body. Rest of the stuff like AESA radar, avionics, Engine are imported from US companies. And they have flown the prototype in very short time. There is no reason why we can't do the same with Tejas, ORCA, and AMCA.

Yes, the sequential approach to building Mk1A and Mk2 adopted by HAL is very risky IMO. I would say mad. All that risk so HAL can avoid the cost of more assembly lines and workers. I don't have a clue whether if it is GOI forcing the strategy on HAL to keep investment down or HAL's idea. One solution to the sequential approach problem: get a normal, private company to build/assemble Mk2.

About TAI with KAAN and KAI with KF-21, from what I read you are mistaken. Both are developing/have developed their own AESA and other sensors (perhaps with outside help?) Turkiye is developing an engine for the KAAN. ROK announced plans to develop an engine for the KF-21 earlier this year. In other words, they have started on indigenous engine programmes.

Let's see how far India, Turkiye and ROK have got with an engine for their 5G fighters in 2030.

 

[concard]

Yes, the sequential approach to building Mk1A and Mk2 adopted by HAL is very risky IMO. I would say mad. All that risk so HAL can avoid the cost of more assembly lines and workers. I don't have a clue whether if it is GOI forcing the strategy on HAL to keep investment down or HAL's idea. One solution to the sequential approach problem: get a normal, private company to build/assemble Mk2.

About TAI with KAAN and KAI with KF-21, from what I read you are mistaken. Both are developing/have developed their own AESA and other sensors (perhaps withoutside help?) Turkiye is developing an engine for the KAAN. ROK announced plans to develop an engine for the KF-21 earlier this year. In other words, they have started on indigenous engine programmes.

Let's see how far India, Turkiye and ROK have got with an engine for their 5G fighters in 2030.

No, you are wrong. Turkey being a member of NATO has got access to lot of technology. They claim they have tested AESA radar, it's capabilities still unknown. However, I don't see Turkey developed any kind of Radar before. Having said that, I wonder there was any importing of GaN modules from a NATO country. The technology of GaN is still niche with only few countries possessing it. Even India having developed many different kind of Radars started from Gallium arsenide AESA radar before trying to develop Gallium Nitride AESA radar.

With respect to Korea, last I heard US refused any technology transfer. I don't know it has changed since then.

US maintains refusal to supply tech for KF-X project

Japan, China, India and Southeast Asia news and expert analysis published by Nikkei, an award-winning independent provider of quality journalism.

asia.nikkei.com

 

[Bleh]

$1 billion in FGFA? We invested $300 million for the development of the prototype and this was in 2009.

My bad dude... We were supposed to invest $1bil.

Back to what I think are the basics ...

In the 1980's it was recognised that IAF's fleet of MiG-21 would need replacement in the future. With a large number of aircraft required it was an opportune time to consider establishing an indigenous fast jet design and production programme. So was born the LCA programme. Subsequently the Tejas Mk2, TEDBF and AMCA programmes were launched - all intended to equip India's armed forces.

LCA, Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, plagued by delays, have failed to provide the aircraft expected by IAF. Confidence regarding the delivery date of AMCA to IAF must be low. Given the reported procurement of J-35 by Pakistan within 2 years. It is time for a degree of confidence regarding the delivery schedule for a 5G fighter for IAF.

Embarking on development of a 5G fighter with Russia further raises uncertainty over when IAF will see a 5G fighter enter service. With Pakistan reportedly procuring J-35, the only way IAF can be certain of having a 5G counter to J-35 before 2035 will be to buy a developed 5G fighter.

I therefore suggest negotiating an order for a developed 5G fighter ASAP. Arranging assembly in India would delay the delivery of a 5G to IAF for so long that it would be a pointless exercise - IAF would be receiving AMCA a small number of years later.

I once derived some AMCA Mk2 designs for Kuntal's render (that never ultimately happened), after FGFA was completely dead. Will share.

Same with ALCA & a stealth HJT-39 based LIFT.

 

[Spitfire IX]

With respect to Korea, last I heard US refused any technology transfer. I don't know it has changed since then.

US maintains refusal to supply tech for KF-X project

Japan, China, India and Southeast Asia news and expert analysis published by Nikkei, an award-winning independent provider of quality journalism.

asia.nikkei.com

IIRC part of the reason ROK chose F-35 1around 10 years ago was that LM agreed to transfer a number of technologies that would greatly assist in developing KF-21 (then called KF-X). Unfortunately the government would not allow the ToT ROK LM had agreed., so ROK set about developing the needed technologies itself.

Note: the article you cite is nearly 10 years old.

 

[JTP]

They have a roadmap and they are pretty much on track to achieve all the milestones, including IWBs. Unlike AMCA/chAMCA which is flying high only inside the show case at aeroindia. And they have industrial might to back it up.

Isn’t it good that a fight jet flies in real space, that two within such a short time, and not hanging on a stand since two decades. Flying and deta collection alone is a huge milestone for a jet plane.

I agree with AbRaj on this one. Better not underestimate a NATO member which has been a supply-chain & R&D partner in F35 program as well as a successful drone designer manufacturer unlike India. They have progressed rapidly in aviation so KAAN is most likely becoming a success.

Complaints about AMCA becoming delayed and future delays are valid, esp when our adversaries will be having 5th gen jets. Also, I fear that just like how India made a small Tejas that IAF now complaints about its range & payload, AMCA too will have issues with its range and payload. 4 internal hardpoints is just not enough but then IAF knows better.

 

[Asmodeus]

AFAIK The Rollout and FF of KA'AN was a political move on behalf of erdogan, which was successful as he barely made it back to form the govt. Notice how the news and articles even youtube videos from some prominent channels have completely disapeared after Turkish elections. Heck, Kaan has yet to complete CDR(what it seems) which AMCA has completed in 2022.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Heck, Kaan has yet to complete CDR(what it seems) which AMCA has completed in 2022.

KAAN is not being developed along the lines of the /design freeze / prototype construction / prototype testing / certification/ model.

ACMA design was frozen April 2023. All that was required for it to go ahead was a meeting to formalise the project go ahead. Why did it take from April 2023 to March 2024 for CCS to meet to give the AMCA the go ahead? A bureaucratic delay of that order is ludicrous. No wonder that projects are so slow to progress.

AMCA Design frozen | LCA Mark-2 air intake test certification in France

AMCA Design frozen – funding awaited As per the latest report from The Hindustan Times, The Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) has approached the Cabinet Committee on Security (CC…

indiandefenseanalysis.wordpress.com

India approves fifth-generation AMCA fighter project

Development of India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) fifth-generation fighter aircraft programme is expected to accelerate in 2024 following New Delhi's...

www.janes.com

 

[Asmodeus]

so what will happen if they encounter design inefficiency or flow during testing phase, they will rectify it at production level????

KAAN is not being developed along the lines of the /design freeze / prototype construction / prototype testing / certification/ model.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Bhai log, chinta mat karo, agar Kaan Pak ke paas aya to hum Kaan ko pakad ke uthak baithak karaenge

 

[randombully]

View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1865044129560039913

 

[AbRaj]

View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1865044129560039913

With their Mig 21 and Mig 29s, they surely gonna teach those with 22s and 35s about how to kick names and take ass.
On second thought they do have expertise about how to maintain a freaking museum

 

[Anantanaga]

We absolutely must not rely on the Russians for fighter jets anymore. I can't believe that there are still so many people in India who haven't learned their lesson from dealing with the Soviets and the Russians for decades. It does seem that the Pakis will have Chinese 5th gen fighters before AMCA takes to the skies.

That is indeed a result of the incompetence of our government, military and agencies like DRDO and ADA, but that's no reason to panic buy Russian shit. It only means that we need to push hard for AMCA and accelerate its development.

 

[AbRaj]

We absolutely must not rely on the Russians for fighter jets anymore. I can't believe that there are still so many people in India who haven't learned their lesson from dealing with the Soviets and the Russians for decades. It does seem that the Pakis will have Chinese 5th gen fighters before AMCA takes to the skies.

That is indeed a result of the incompetence of our government, military and agencies like DRDO and ADA, but that's no reason to panic buy Russian shit. It only means that we need to push hard for AMCA and accelerate its development.

What I fear most is that PAF F16 saga all over again. IAF went in panic mode and like headless chicken, they bought Mig 23 then Mig 29 then Mirage 2000, none of them were actually as capable as a multirole fighter as good as F16 individually and were more expensive to buy and maintain than F16. Brochuritis wan not a term back then

 

[Bleh]

I once derived some AMCA Mk2 designs for Kuntal's render (that never ultimately happened), after FGFA was completely dead. Will share.

Here she is... Made minimal changes. A simple fuselage plug behind the cockpit & bulged spine. Not much but it'll create enough internal volume to move the shit inside to make room for larger IWB & fueltank
Older horizontals to invest lift slightly.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

We absolutely must not rely on the Russians for fighter jets anymore. I can't believe that there are still so many people in India who haven't learned their lesson from dealing with the Soviets and the Russians for decades. It does seem that the Pakis will have Chinese 5th gen fighters before AMCA takes to the skies.

That is indeed a result of the incompetence of our government, military and agencies like DRDO and ADA, but that's no reason to panic buy Russian shit. It only means that we need to push hard for AMCA and accelerate its development.

What I fear most is that PAF F16 saga all over again. IAF went in panic mode and like headless chicken, they bought Mig 23 then Mig 29 then Mirage 2000, none of them were actually as capable as a multirole fighter as good as F16 individually and were more expensive to buy and maintain than F16. Brochuritis wan not a term back then

The export versions have reduced capabilities compared to domestic ones. But the Russian weapons, although of lower quality than Western ones, were good enough in Russian hands. AFAIK from all the media & data, the MiG-29 was a very feared jet with high agility & its IR-CCM with high off-boresight. So in 1980s Cold War what choice did we have other than that? Being a 3rd world nation we managed to buy from both sides even till today. Russia doesn't complain or not much i guess but certain Western nations have too much issues with our neutrality.

 

[randombully]

Holy Fuckin shit! American NGAD is already flying and here we are stuck at amca


View: https://youtu.be/OpXQopsBB_U?si=7UeDVUuGn8OfOY_7