AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I concur, only 4 AAMs internally is grossly inadequate. They need to hang two more from the bay doors.
View attachment 25386
Squeeze them a third of the way between the gaps and push the primary drop pylons deeper to let the bay doors close.
View attachment 25387
And let them hang out from door mounted rails.
View attachment 25388
Sincerely hoping they take this opportunity to revise the design.

Not a hard ask. My gripe is, in none of the official renders we see AAMs with folded fins. Packing 6 BVRAAMS in that bay should be achievable.
View attachment 25394
View attachment 25395

Even w/o modifying official dimension of IWB, 6 staggered short-fin AAMs can fit.
I hope you didn't miss my post on that.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

I concur, only 4 AAMs internally is grossly inadequate. They need to hang two more from the bay doors.
View attachment 25386
Squeeze them a third of the way between the gaps and push the primary drop pylons deeper to let the bay doors close.
View attachment 25387
And let them hang out from door mounted rails.
View attachment 25388
Sincerely hoping they take this opportunity to revise the design.

Absolutely....I completely agree with you....at least 6 hardpoints are required inside the INTERNAL WEAPON BAY...even side mounted weapon bay for small WVR Air to Air missiles can be a good addition.

 

[Migflug]

When were our forces so advanced in thinking? This decision is going to force them back to drawing boards and a point for future Airforce chiefs to criticize HAL/ADA on. Infact deep IWB allows for more future armaments and attachments. Thats precisely why modern designs be it from US, Russia or China all have large IWB's . Wingmen have to go long way in reaching usability in contested scenario. It requires quite advancement in Inference AI. ADA is repeating same mistakes of Marut, Tejas, Kaveri - Taking on lofty goals which it will take eons to achieve, forcing IAF to flog their old horses.

I think if our AMCA fructifies, we can keep involving it over the next few iterations.At least 2 are already planned, MK1 and MK2. If the need arises, we can have a 3rd one with more powerful engines and larger internal bay/side bays in the 40s.
But the need of the hour is to make a decent 5th as quickly as possible.

 

[AbRaj]

In the latest Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha, it was hinted that a large weapons bay was not a priority due to the changing nature of the battlefield. Now we have a more integrated battle arena, wingmen, etc and since no system is standalone, the large internal bay with 2 extra side bays does not make any large difference.

It was what USAF thaught during Viatnam war and got a spectacular ass-whooping by more traditional soviet jets.
iAF has a history of unlearning of their own mistakes, forget about learning from other’s blunders.

PS: If you are a following Indian Armed forces, one thing must be clear by now that Indian Armed Forces are antithesis of Modern Defence forces. Its a chronically primitive organisation that has its own future vision and aims and objectives. They are not here to fight a proactive war and win it. its like a huge MNREGA scheme for social welfare and it works quite well if you look at it in that way.

 

[randombully]

In the latest Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha, it was hinted that a large weapons bay was not a priority due to the changing nature of the battlefield. Now we have a more integrated battle arena, wingmen, etc and since no system is standalone, the large internal bay with 2 extra side bays does not make any large difference.

Having two cca/wvr missiles is useful if you somehow find yourself alone against an enemy drone/ fighter at wvr ranges.
The chances of it happening I himalayas are more than plains.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

In the latest Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha, it was hinted that a large weapons bay was not a priority due to the changing nature of the battlefield. Now we have a more integrated battle arena, wingmen, etc and since no system is standalone, the large internal bay with 2 extra side bays does not make any large difference.

Bruh. F-22 which enters service in 97 period can carry six in iwb and 2 in swb.

Total 8 mizziles. Coming in 2032 we will have AMCA with just 4 Astra mk3 is joke.

Atleast 6 is benchmark. But we should go for 8 with (6 BVR and 2 WVR).

Otherwise cats warrior max with htfe engine can do the same job if we want 4 mizziles.

 

[Ayan Barat]

wingmen...the large internal bay with 2 extra side bays does not make any large difference.

That is a very good theory and countries like USA and China are more or less working on that concept but there's just one hiccup in it

The current iteration of CATS Warrior don't have an IWB big enough to carry air-to-air missile; just SDBs

View: https://x.com/smitharanganath/status/1889214179174683006?s=19
(was the choice of this specific Tweet intentional? May be)

 

[randombully]

Bruh. F-22 which enters service in 97 period can carry six in iwb and 2 in swb.

Total 8 mizziles. Coming in 2032 we will have AMCA with just 4 Astra mk3 is joke.

Atleast 6 is benchmark. But we should go for 8 with (6 BVR and 2 WVR).

Otherwise cats warrior max with htfe engine can do the same job if we want 4 mizziles.

F-22 which enters service in 97 period can carry six in iwb and 2 in swb.

Amca should carry 2 more wvr, but Not a good comparison as f22 is more of a heavy fighter while amca is medium.

Total 8 mizziles. Coming in 2032 we will have AMCA with just 4 Astra mk3 is joke

That would be hard to achieve.
6 is still realistic, plus CCA/CATS will be there to support it.

Otherwise cats warrior max with htfe engine can do the same job if we want 4 mizziles.

So far the payload for cats warrior are saaw and wvr missile.
There is not mention of a BVR missile in its payload, unsure if BVR can fit in its smaller IWB, probably external BVR carry possible.

 

[Punisher]

Its most likely due to the poor experience with the russian engines, which IAF have been using since long time. US/European designed and manufactured jet engines are probably more reliable and technologically more advanced than Russian ones, political hurdles notwithstanding.

Some engines are better than no engines.

 

[Punisher]

on good ol' D F I it was mentioned that very first 'technical demonstrators', that are now catching dust in HAL's museum in Bangalore, either KH2001 or KH2002, one of them was actually ground-tested and air intakes certified with russian RD-33 as an alternative engine in hand IF unkil sam doesn't let us have F404 - but it's all tales from those era when Kaveri was already being hailed as mainstay for LCA

eventually US of A allowed F404 to us and that thing of perhaps putting RD-33 on LCA was shut off if only it wasn't...we could've perhaps gotten a good fleet of Tejas flying with that engine, no matter how questionable its performance be

So, true..... Our Babus thought Americans won't arm twist LCA program by harassing us with the availability of engines.

 

[fire starter]

View: https://x.com/JaidevJamwal/status/1891156038990041239?t=XO_by3txOY-SAH5xHOvjqA&s=19

 

[kamaal]

ADA is planning to introduce AMCA MK2 with 110kn engine. Expect some significant improvement. Currently it can only carry 1.5 ton in iwb, expect side weapons bay in future.

 

[Azaad]

That is a very good theory and countries like USA and China are more or less working on that concept but there's just one hiccup in it

The current iteration of CATS Warrior don't have an IWB big enough to carry air-to-air missile; just SDBs

View: https://x.com/smitharanganath/status/1889214179174683006?s=19
(was the choice of this specific Tweet intentional? May be)

Amca should carry 2 more wvr, but Not a good comparison as f22 is more of a heavy fighter while amca is medium.

That would be hard to achieve.
6 is still realistic, plus CCA/CATS will be there to support it.

So far the payload for cats warrior are saaw and wvr missile.
There is not mention of a BVR missile in its payload, unsure if BVR can fit in its smaller IWB, probably external BVR carry possible.

The CATS Warrior is just one of the many CCAs being designed. The Warrior would in all likelihood be a CCA to the current fleet of FAs being developed / in service.

I believe the AMCA Mk-2 will have something much more sophisticated . We had talk of the FUFA sometime back . It'd probably be realised after CATS Warrior .

Similarly I wouldn't fret too much on the lack of SWBs or IWB on board the Mk-1. The definitive version of the AMCA as of now is the Mk-2 .

A good deal of tech which will go into it will be realised on the Mk-1 but surely not all the tech would be realised on the latter for otherwise why would we have the Mk-2 ?

We work with the information we have in hand which is in the public domain & very limited in its scope . The experts be they in the IAF or ADA are the ones with full knowledge of the true requirements & would design the Aircraft accordingly. Let's not second guess them .

At some point in time you have to trust their judgement for they're the experts not you & me irrespective our knowledge , which is the reason we're here & they're where they are.

 

[Ayan Barat]

At some point in time you have to trust their judgement for they're the experts not you & me irrespective our knowledge , which is the reason we're here & they're where they are.

What happened to you my Guy?
You used to be rational, covering every aspect of something and now suddenly this weird boomer tone! You're just a couple steps away from saying "have you seen SSB gate?"

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

In the latest Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha, it was hinted that a large weapons bay was not a priority due to the changing nature of the battlefield. Now we have a more integrated battle arena, wingmen, etc and since no system is standalone, the large internal bay with 2 extra side bays does not make any large difference.

There are numerous bloggers, vloggers, journalists. I try to listen to as many as my time permits.
Mr. Saurav Jha was smiling & made following overconfident, 1-sided assumptions -
- AMCA will work in silent mode (but will enemy be in broadcast mode? )
- AMCA will fire BVR-AAMs & never require CCMs, so SWB not required.
- AMCA won't encounter enemy steath jet WVR.
So,
- Enemy countermeasures won't work?
- Enemy won't use BFM tactics or won't work?
- Astr BVR-AAMs cannot miss targets?

> Integrated/Networked battle picture with LOAL-AAMs improves situational awareness & flexibility of who looks & who shoots, but overall & individual firepower has to be maintained. The 5gen philosophy is already sneaking & pack-hunting.

> Missile tech improve on offence side, countermeasures & tactics improve on defence side.
Sword Vs Shield, Cat Vs Mouse, Tom vs Jerry

> We wan't our jets & UCAVs to attack, succeed & survive & the enemy would do same. This means more shots required by both sides in BVR & WVR.

> Once weapons are depleted, the air asset becomes defenceless & dependent for protection.

> Some of us are glorifying our 4.5gen jets based on composites, MLUed components from 5gen, but arrogantly under-estimating enemy's not only 4.5gen but also 5/6gen. So, we wan't our Rafale, Su-30MKI, LCA, MWF, TEDBF, Mirage-200, MiG-29 to succeed but enemy's jets will be cola cans

This is why i repeat "Focus on technology directy instead of who says what"

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Amca should carry 2 more wvr, but Not a good comparison as f22 is more of a heavy fighter while amca is medium.

That would be hard to achieve.
6 is still realistic, plus CCA/CATS will be there to support it.

8 AAMs with SWB is hard to achieve but not impossible. Words like hard, complex, etc are part of engineering.
If a soldier is given pistol & MG with magazine's 50-70% capacity, is it fine? So it is not about comparing with other jet but having sufficient weapons considering countermeasures & tactics.
Brutal bitter truth: We have gone for LCA, MWF, AMCA only bcoz of lack of bigger, better engines by self/import. PAKFA-FGFA didn't work. No AHCA RFI/RFP yet.

Since WW era the size of light/medium/heavy aircraft change as per era, technology, maker. We consider MWF as Medium but USA considers F-16 as light.

For stealth jets with IWB there is no ideal/realistic ISO standard for % of components by weight - structure, engines, equipments, fuel, weapons.
Many people might think that stealth jets might be carrying 10/15/20% weapons internally by weight.
F-22 empty structure weight + equipments = 15.16 tons
2x engines = 4.54 tons
internal fuel = 8.2 tons
6 BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs = 1.1 tons
STOW = 29 tons
MTOW = 38 tons
Remaining external load = 9 tons
So F-22 carries 1.1/29 = just 3.8% AAMs internally by weight. Doesn't this look astonishing?

F-22's SWB was designed for big-fin AIM-9 Sidewinder whose latest version has redesigned short fins.




Now MLU may not be possible to have 2 staggered AIM-9X in each SWB.

Some future jet may have 2 staggered short-fin CCMs or BVR-AAMs or even 4 VSR-CCMs in each SWB.
F/A-XX is speculated to have that, which is a naval jet BTW, you know what i mean.


With more stronger 200 Kn class engines, it is still being speculated that manned NGAD PCA might have combo of 12/14/16 AAMs (VLR, LR, SR, VSR) in tandem &/or parallel IWBs + SWBs, with many fan made CADs.

 

[vicky]

View: https://youtu.be/Opyt_wlJ3A8?si=4S5m2Q2UAqvNhsbs

F-35 fighter jet: What's a G2G deal, and why it's preferred

President Donald Trump announced the US's willingness to sell F-35 fighter jets to India during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent visit. Such a deal is likely to follow the government-to-government mode, ensuring better pricing, delivery, and protection, similar to India's Rafale jet...

m.economictimes.com

 

[Brood Father]

View: https://youtu.be/Opyt_wlJ3A8?si=4S5m2Q2UAqvNhsbs

F-35 fighter jet: What's a G2G deal, and why it's preferred

President Donald Trump announced the US's willingness to sell F-35 fighter jets to India during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's recent visit. Such a deal is likely to follow the government-to-government mode, ensuring better pricing, delivery, and protection, similar to India's Rafale jet...

m.economictimes.com

Yep ..In India things move this fast and in next 2 days we will have flying F35 with India specific changes ..

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

There are numerous bloggers, vloggers, journalists. I try to listen to as many as my time permits.
Mr. Saurav Jha was smiling & made following overconfident, 1-sided assumptions -
- AMCA will work in silent mode (but will enemy be in broadcast mode? )
- AMCA will fire BVR-AAMs & never require CCMs, so SWB not required.
- AMCA won't encounter enemy steath jet WVR.
So,
- Enemy countermeasures won't work?
- Enemy won't use BFM tactics or won't work?
- Astr BVR-AAMs cannot miss targets?

> Integrated/Networked battle picture with LOAL-AAMs improves situational awareness & flexibility of who looks & who shoots, but overall & individual firepower has to be maintained. The 5gen philosophy is already sneaking & pack-hunting.

> Missile tech improve on offence side, countermeasures & tactics improve on defence side.
Sword Vs Shield, Cat Vs Mouse, Tom vs Jerry

> We wan't our jets & UCAVs to attack, succeed & survive & the enemy would do same. This means more shots required by both sides in BVR & WVR.

> Once weapons are depleted, the air asset becomes defenceless & dependent for protection.

> Some of us are glorifying our 4.5gen jets based on composites, MLUed components from 5gen, but arrogantly under-estimating enemy's not only 4.5gen but also 5/6gen. So, we wan't our Rafale, Su-30MKI, LCA, MWF, TEDBF, Mirage-200, MiG-29 to succeed but enemy's jets will be cola cans

This is why i repeat "Focus on technology directy instead of who says what"

Actually the problem of Indian AERO designers is that they are over-exaggerating the battle situation... Someone needs to talk with these designers that BASIC BATTLEFIELD REQUIREMENT OF MISSILES will never be compensated by other platforms like wingman.... MINIMUM OF 6 HARD-POINTS inside IWB is absolutely necessary, along with that 2 side bays can be accommodated for small WVR missiles....the MAIN PROBLEM IS BABUS( IAS ) who are incharge of the organisation can't enforce these requirements on AERO DESIGNERS because They have specialisation/ degree/ interest in HISTORY/GEOGRAPHY/POLITY/SOCIOLOGY and NOT ON MODERN MILITARY DEVELOPMENT & NEW AGE INNOVATIONS which are happening all around the world....WE NEED A STRONG PROTEST AGAINST THIS BABU-CULTURE, OTHERWISE IT'LL DESTROY Us Oneday...and WE, the public of India, ARE GLORIFYING THESE BABUS IN SOCIAL MEDIA, INSTITUTIONS, HOME, SCHOOLS, COLLEGES everywhere....WE ARE SHAMELESS PEOPLE

 

[BON PLAN]

Actually the problem of Indian AERO designers is that they are over-exaggerating the battle situation... Someone needs to talk with these designers that BASIC BATTLEFIELD REQUIREMENT OF MISSILES will never be compensated by other platforms like wingman.... MINIMUM OF 6 HARD-POINTS inside IWB is absolutely necessary, along with that 2 side bays can be accommodated for small WVR missiles....the MAIN PROBLEM IS BABUS( IAS ) who are incharge of the organisation can't enforce these requirements on AERO DESIGNERS because They have specialisation/ degree/ interest in HISTORY/GEOGRAPHY/POLITY/SOCIOLOGY and NOT ON MODERN MILITARY DEVELOPMENT & NEW AGE INNOVATIONS which are happening all around the world....WE NEED A STRONG PROTEST AGAINST THIS BABU-CULTURE, OTHERWISE IT'LL DESTROY Us Oneday...and WE, the public of India, ARE GLORIFYING THESE BABUS IN SOCIAL MEDIA, INSTITUTIONS, HOME, SCHOOLS, COLLEGES everywhere....WE ARE SHAMELESS PEOPLE

What is the max number of air to air missiles fired by a single jet in a war action the last 40 years ?