AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Corvus Splendens]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1889613239631122516

 

[vampyrbladez]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1889613239631122516

DRDO is having a Swayamvar for 5th generation engine partnership.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Brilliant, first flight inshallah by 2047.

View: https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1889672659765440990

 

[Spitfire IX]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1889613239631122516

End of which year- 2025? 2030?

Being optimistic, let's assume Safran agree a 110kN engine deal before end 2025. Will GOI agree to fund the deal and when will they agree?

PS Has the head of DRDO predicted a deal date before?

 

[randombully]

View: https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1889672659765440990

 

[Anants]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1889613239631122516

Woh year kabhi to ayega...

 

[Azaad]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1889613239631122516

Is this a joke ? I recall Ninda Turtle issuing a public statement exactly this time in 2021 asking relevant agencies to conclude their negotiations in a year.

It's been 4 years since his public statement & 3 years since the negotiations were to have been concluded.

Now they're actually taking another full year before the decision is made post which they'd take another year or year & a half to ink the agreement which means work on the proposed TF won't start out before mid to late 2027 or early 2028.

Add 12 years to certify the TF & we're in 2040. That's around the time we get to fit in the TF into the AMCA Mk-2 for trials. 5 years in trials & the FA should hopefully receive its FOC .

Add 2-3 more years for serial production to commence which is more like 2050 by which time 7 th Gen FAs from China & the US will be receiving their FOCs.

There seems to be no sense of urgency or appreciation of the magnitude of the problem the IAF faces , consequently jeopardizing the security of the nation . Total apathy ! Absolutely pathetic state of affairs !!

 

[Anants]

End of which year- 2025? 2030?

Being optimistic, let's assume Safran agree a 110kN engine deal before end 2025. Will GOI agree to fund the deal and when will they agree?

Its part of series of sweet nothing statements that are issued Biennially. as part of government tradition.

 

[sameer]

View: https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/1889613239631122516

Hilarious. They’ve been re hashing that same statement since like a decade now.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slp7vjHxSDo&ab_channel=TarmakMediaHouse%23TMH

I watched most of their videos. All generic choreographed talks.
Nobody asked precise questions like discussed on any forums.
Infographic something, static model something eles, slide something else.
Some people are fine with anything on IOC jet, whether it will have EOTS or external pod, 4 or 6 AAMs, custom AGMs or not, ladder & IFRP increasing RCS, nobody worries
But AI & other 6gen tech will be there

 

[fire starter]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1889707267483902240?t=a_0-vFlK1JX8FLG9BUlq7A&s=19

 

[Srinivas]

Just a HAND means what exacty? His real name/ID not required but professional profile, what exactly he did on F-35???? Please share the link of portal where you asked.
You can ask well-qualified engineers of Northrop-Grumann & Boeing too who lost ATF & JSF competition, then what should we do, support LM guys or NG, Boeing guys? That's why i always tell, look at technology directly instead of who said what.
You asked in general or w.r.t. India? I already said about WEST Vs INDIA-


===============================================================


Don't get confused & dont confuse others. Clearing doubts is also an art. Ask precise questions in terms of PCM. Obviously, all types of UAVs dont require to be agile fighter, but we're talking specifically about Wingman UCAV profile which i explained multiple times incl. previous reply to you.
The person whom you asked didn't talk about aerodynamics like shadow area, intake low pressure, compressor stall, TWR>1 (Thrust to Weight Ratio) required for high AoA dogfight.
View attachment 24979
And most cruise missiles have been shot down in all current conflicts.
In our future conflicts it would depend how China & Pakistan would be prepared to defend against our subsonic cruise missiles, UAVs/UCAVs & jets. And how we'll be prepared to defend against their assets.


> Again, don't confuse others. How much exactly is your LARGER PAYLOAD & composed of which weapons exactly? Give breakup, like I already explained with table that Light stealth jet, manned or unammed, also needs some minimum payload. So just like the world made Light, Medium, Heavy class manned jets, they'll definitely make UCAVs in different size/weight also. Just wait & watch in coming decades.
The followig kind of advertisements are misleading, wont work. These UCAVs will have run away soon after firing their 2 AAMs.

View attachment 24980
But the right UCAV above with side intakes is an example of contnious airflow in high AoA also. It just needs some more IWB capacity for 6 total AAMs at least.

> Using accurate networked target info from various assets like chess pawns, as part of networked warfare, is 1 thing & making manned jet & Wingman UCAV dependent for sensors/weapons is another thing, making them helpless & handicapped when remote link/asset is down.

>Repeating- irrespective of size, UCAV Wingman is supposed to fly & fight along with & like manned leader jet. They'll be facing agile 4.5gen, 5.5gen jets.

Loyal wing man is great idea, HAL should be appreciated for taking this idea and implementing it.

4 of these loyal wing man’s can be attached to a bomber and along with fighter jets that can be deployed just before reaching the enemy air space.

These drones can wreck hovac if these are deployed in large numbers and the dog fights can be turned into our favor.

I am confident that HAL meets the time lines they have given.

People are forgetting one thing , HAL is the integrator. Most of the modules are done by private sector where there is no babudom.

The progress that is achieved also belong to Indian private sector.

The private sector are just at the beginning stage, once they establish I expect world class technologies developed from them.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Loyal wing man is great idea, HAL should be appreciated for taking this idea and implementing it.

4 of these loyal wing man’s can be attached to a bomber and along with fighter jets that can be deployed just before reaching the enemy air space.

These drones can wreck hovac if these are deployed in large numbers and the dog fights can be turned into our favor.

I am confident that HAL meets the time lines they have given.

People are forgetting one thing , HAL is the integrator. Most of the modules are done by private sector where there is no babudom.

The progress that is achieved also belong to Indian private sector.

The private sector are just at the beginning stage, once they establish I expect world class technologies developed from them.

I think IAF-ADA-HAL are agreed upon the loyal wingman concept given that the prototype display for CATS is right behind the AMCA mockup.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Loyal wing man is great idea, HAL should be appreciated for taking this idea and implementing it.

Dear Srinivas, hope you're doing well.
Do you understand basic aerodynamics. terms, concepts like TWR, aerodynamic shadow, compressor stall, profile of a fighter, basic components of aircraft, wing design, fuselage design, stealth geometry, irrespective of manned or unmanned? If not then feel free to ask.
> HAL is just a maker, not designer.
> AI Wingman is a great idea globally. But the current CATS Warrior & all identical UAVs globally are inappropriate design for a Wingman. Lets recall how badly J-36 has been criticized for top intake.
Only non-agile jets ike F-117, B-2, B-21 have intakes on top, not agile fighters. Wingman means a jet which flies along leader in group. So Wingman UCAV is supposed to fly with manned supersonic, supercruising fighter & hence be an agile unmanned fighter itself. It needs to have same or identical range, endurance, agility, TWR, etc. If a member cant stay in group then how can it be called group member?
We don't mix mileage cars/bikes with racing ones. We don't mix horses with donkeys.

Why not make manned versions of these UCAVs?
Manned fighter Vs UCAV, only difference is of pilot & components required by pilot. Removing pilot doesn't reduce threats to aircraft.
Do you think just 2 AAMs are sufficient? If we fit 6 AAMs inside AMCA, a group of 6 AMCAs means 36 AAMs which is equal to 18 CATS Warriors. If we assign 3 CATS Warrior to 1 AMCA then the group has 6+2+2+2=12 AAMs, so ONE group of 6 AMCAs is equal to 3 groups of AMCA-CATS MUMT.
After 2 AAMs are depleted these UCAVs will be helpless.

4 of these loyal wing man’s can be attached to a bomber and along with fighter jets that can be deployed just before reaching the enemy air space.
These drones can wreck hovac if these are deployed in large numbers and the dog fights can be turned into our favor.

All UAV makers globally are thinking same thing that these UCAVs will wreak havoc. Both side of borders wil have UCAVs. What so different about us when we are lagging behind all of them?

I am confident that HAL meets the time lines they have given.

Did you watch news? ACM A.P. Singh said he has lost confidence in HAL & you wanna have confidence in HAL prematurely?

People are forgetting one thing , HAL is the integrator. Most of the modules are done by private sector where there is no babudom.
The progress that is achieved also belong to Indian private sector.
The private sector are just at the beginning stage, once they establish I expect world class technologies developed from them.

I as a tax paying citizen also have same expectations, but i hope till then we won't run into major war.

 

[SKC]

Poor @SKC when he wakes up
View attachment 24991

 

[Ayan Barat]

Daaayum! So much chatter going on about LWs and it seems even the basic concept is somehow misunderstood.

We as human wants things to do everything with equal effectiveness but because of all the constraints of physics, especially that damned SWaP we are forced to compromise by focusing on some core competencies and letting others get degraded.

Infact the whole paradigm of weapons design is a compromise. In snipers you get accuracy and long range but lose volume of fire. In submarines you get unprecedented stealth but lose air defence. In F-35 you get one the most sophisticated aircraft in terms of sensors and processor but lose magazine depth.

Every single thing is designed to address one or two specific requirements. So the question is; what exactly is a Loyal Wingman supposed to bring on the table?
Low cost and attrition rate, PERIOD.
No maneuverability, no aerodynamic, no heebie jeebie...

• Australian AF has invested around $620M for 13 Ghost Bat, including R&D cost. Per unit cost comes to around $48M.
• F-35, after full rate production of more than 1,000 and an order book of around 2,500 more is still around $82M.
• This price is even lower than some HALE drones.

Now coming to attrition. Loyal Wingman project is perhaps the first large scale military project where one of the primary requirements is to have a dark factory. Absolute automation in manufacturing and a manufacturing rate so high that it can out-match the attrition rate of a LSCO.

Another important point; dogfight has become obsolete. If you're in the visual range of an enemy fighter then it means you've already broken some RoEs or have already done multiple mistakes. Unless an untill we develop an airframe (I guess we've had a long discussion about it) that can sustain maneuverability beyond the yield strength of current aircraft and more importantly, the human pilot...dog fight is not returning for LSCO. At max, it'd be limited to just shooting down CMs and LMs like we've seen in Ukraine because of the cost advantage.

Perhaps the best possible definition of a Loyal Wingman that I can come up with would be "Splitting a Su-30MkI/F-15"
You take a traditional two seater fighter in which you've a pilot and a WSO sharing the workload and split it into three separate planes; with a manned stealth fighter being the "pilot" and an onboard AI being the "WSO" controlling two UAVs.
A Hypothetical Multi-Domain Operation Against a Near-Peer Adversary

> Mission Objective: A joint strike package consisting of 4x manned stealth fighter (Spear) and 8x Loyal Wingman (Bug) is deployed to neutralize ADS, eliminate HVTs, engage enemy fighters in case retaliated and conduct real-time ISR in contested airspace.

> Loadout: Spear1 and 3 purely AD with 6x BVR-AAMs and 2x WVR-AAMs each. Spear2 and 4 are multirole with 2x BVR-AAMs, 2x 1000lbs and 2x WVR-AAMs.
Bug1 has SAR and multi-spectral sensor, Bug2 - 3 carry EW payload, Bug4 - 5 has 4x SDB with PRH seeker and Bug6 - 8 with 2x BVR-AAMs each.

> Formation: Bug1 leading a box with Spear1 being the box man, Bug2 and Bug4 being number 2 and 3. Trailing them is Spear2 with Bug3 and Bug5 in an inverted Vic. Followed by Spear4 with Bug6 - 8 dispersed around it at different altitude and separation. At the very rear and maximum ceiling is Spear3 providing overwatch.

> Phase 1: Ingress & Reconnaissance
Bug1 is way ahead of the package acting as scout and doing ISR with EW support from Bug2. Primary mission is to map all SAM emissions and jam them in case fired upon. Any surprise bogie would be dealt by Spear1.

> Phase 2: SEAD
Once mapped, Bug4 will engage radars with SDBs.

> Phase 3: Ground Attack
Spear2 would use it's PGMs to neutralize HVTs like C2 centres or runaways. Bug3 and 5 would deal with any remaining radar.

> Phase 4: Anti-Air
At this point, sufficient enemy aircraft would have been scrambled. Spear4's primary objectives would be to provide the offensive air capability with 3x LWs at its disposal armed with BVR-AAMs. The primary objective of these three would be just "absorbing" enemy fire while acting as a stand-off missile truck for the actual manned fighters. Secondary objective of this package would be ground attack in case Spear2 is not affirmative about neutralization.

> Phase 5: Egress
After contact is made, Spear4 will ensure the successful egress of all the manned fighters acting as both the anti-air commander and a mini AWACS.

> Phase 6: Post Mission
Bug1 would be the last to leave the airspace even if it means losing it. By staying it'll provide persistent ISR and also the primary BDA data.

This is the realistic scenario in which Loyal Wingman would be used instead of whatever...

 

[randombully]

Australian AF has invested around $620M for 13 Ghost Bat, including R&D cost. Per unit cost comes to around $48M.

That $48M also includes development cost, without it those 13 will be even cheaper.

Australians are actual targeting bringing the cost down to 10M per peice.

We can probably bring the cost of CATS warrior to 5-8 million per peice.
Not to mention Harsh Vardhan Thakur stated in recent interview that CATS warrior cost same as a "surface to surface missile".

 

[Azaad]

That $48M also includes development cost, without it those 13 will be even cheaper.

Australians are actual targeting bringing the cost down to 10M per peice.

We can probably bring the cost of CATS warrior to 5-8 million per peice.
Not to mention Harsh Vardhan Thakur stated in recent interview that CATS warrior cost same as a "surface to surface missile".

Development & mfg in India as compared to Australia is definitely cheaper . If the Aussies are targeting a 10 million USD price tag we should be targeting a price tag at least a third of it.

 

[randombully]

Development & mfg in India as compared to Australia is definitely cheaper . If the Aussies are targeting a 10 million USD price tag we should be targeting a price tag at least a third of it.

The cheapness decreases as product gets more technologically advanced.

For example.
If we had same industry as US, then if we produce the f35 with same rate and order as US we can do it 25-30% max 40% cheaper.
We can't do it as 1/3 the cost.

So for loyal wingman 5-8 million per peice is reasonable assumption.

You can also look at tejasmk1a 40-45 million per peice for the order of 87
If USA was producing it, it would have costed 60-70 million per peice for 87, but not 135million per peice( 3 times the price).

 

[Azaad]

The cheapness decreases as product gets more technologically advanced.

For example.
If we had same industry as US, then if we produce the f35 with same rate and order as US we can do it 25-30% max 40% cheaper.
We can't do it as 1/3 the cost.

So for loyal wingman 5-8 million per peice is reasonable assumption.

You can also look at tejasmk1a 40-45 million per peice for the order of 87
If USA was producing it, it would have costed 60-70 million per peice for 87, but not 135million per peice( 3 times the price).

The reason I gave that particular price point is coz this is a low tech system where practically all the sub systems down to components / sub component levels can be sourced from within the country plus mfg would be in bulk quantities or at least it should be so given the operating philosophy of these systems.

Not true about the LCA program or any such program with higher degrees of sophistication in technology. As you climb up the value chain the price becomes directly proportional to the value. Obviously quantities also matter in deciding the price point in such cases