CI/CT Operations

[Mr.Evil]

Since the op should be infantry but a SF is doing and YOU are saying Marcos can do it i am bring the Army to give you a picture of reality.

Wasn’t the debate between para and Marcos I was basing everything on that criteria not army and I still stand by it MARCOS can do these ops but should a SF do CASO NO simple

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Wasn’t the debate between para and Marcos I was basing everything on that criteria not army and I still stand by it MARCOS can do these ops but should a SF do CASO NO simple

So these are quiet dense forests where by itself the Marcos wont be able to do the op.

Sometimes a brigade is involved which is 3000 infantry soldiers.

Anyway,

Even if they are helped by RR in conducting a cordon and Marcos are purely sent like Para SF on a trail where they search for footprints or garbage and get on their 6 i dont think Marcos is capable of doing that.

They have never done it.

 

[Mr.Evil]

So these are quiet dense forests where by itself the Marcos wont be able to do the op.

Sometimes a brigade is involved which is 3000 infantry soldiers.

Anyway,

Even if they are helped by RR in conducting a cordon and Marcos are purely sent like Para SF on a trail where they search for footprints or garbage and get on their 6 i dont think Marcos is capable of doing that.

They have never done it.

I still don’t agree but I think it’s a never ending debate i genuinely believe Marcos can Take the ops that paras do

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

I still don’t agree but I think it’s a never ending debate i genuinely believe Marcos can Take the ops that paras do

Even the Paras of 2024 are incapable of doing the ops then how will Marcos do it.

What my best friend Kumaoni always said here but i didnt agree with him earlier but its true now is that Paras of 90s were much capable of handling this than Paras of 2024.

Reason

Not because we "degraded" but because we didnt "upgrade"

Now in 2024 the edge of tech is with these tangos and then some of their instructors have faced US Marines in Afghanistan.

Patak k padh rahi he hume Jammu region me bhai.

 

[lexCommando]

I still don’t agree but I think it’s a never ending debate i genuinely believe Marcos can Take the ops that paras do

Capability alone doesn't ensure competency

 

[lexCommando]

Even the Paras of 2024 are incapable of doing the ops then how will Marcos do it.

What my best friend Kumaoni always said here but i didnt agree with him earlier but its true now is that Paras of 90s were much capable of handling this than Paras of 2024.

Reason

Not because we "degraded" but because we didnt "upgrade"

Now in 2024 the edge of tech is with these tangos and then some of their instructors have faced US Marines in Afghanistan.

Patak k padh rahi he hume Jammu region me bhai.

Paras in 80s and 90s were on par western SFs. Something horrible went wrong in 2000s. When the western world was fighting GWOT and upgraded, we OTOH didn't learned from kashmir (which was our own bloody GWOT) and in result got left behind pathetically

 

[Jedi Operator]

So these are quiet dense forests where by itself the Marcos wont be able to do the op.

Sometimes a brigade is involved which is 3000 infantry soldiers.

Anyway,

Even if they are helped by RR in conducting a cordon and Marcos are purely sent like Para SF on a trail where they search for footprints or garbage and get on their 6 i dont think Marcos is capable of doing that.

They have never done it.

They have done these ops before, we havent heard much but I do have one example

 

[Jedi Operator]

Marcos cannot cordon a big chunk of land and carry out search of a terrorist trail.

Thats not their capability.

My brother in christ listen

That's not how these operations work. You are right; MARCOS does not operate alone in this context. A team of 8 MARCOS is embedded with the Rashtriya Rifles (RR) and serves as the assault force. MARCOS does not cordon off entire forests like the RR does; that's not their role, and I agree with you on that point.

So how would MARCOS operate if called upon?

Think of how conventional forces supported DEVGRU operatives in Afghanistan, as described in No Hero, Chapter 8. An 8-man DEVGRU team was supported by over 200 Afghan Commandos and 30 Army Rangers. In our scenario, the support would be even greater since we don't rely on air support.

The operation involved a drone providing overwatch, with SEAL snipers conducting reconnaissance to clear the way for the SEAL assault team. Meanwhile, Afghan forces and Rangers collaborated to establish a security and reinforcement perimeter, known as a cordon. A few Rangers stayed close to the SEALs to offer fire support.

Similarly, in this case, the RR would cover the ground, while the MARCOS, being a smaller team, would act as the primary strike force. Their role is not to cover ground but to execute precision assaults

 

[Jedi Operator]

Basic training wont let you survive in these ops.

You need specialised training that is conducted in Para Units.

Even Infantry with basic training dont survie in JK hence they have CBS.

Firstly stop thinking that MARCOS has basic training to do these ops.
How do you define 'basic training' ?
MARCOS get basic training during their selection course. First phase is combat diving, second phase is land warfare and third phase is simialr to SQTs in SEAL teams if simply put. Over the course of their career they develop advanced land warfare skills. Before going to Kashmir they do a 2-month predeployment training up in the mountains, they might choose to go to HAWS or to SFTS with Army SF, I really dont know but from interviews like of MARCO Joginder Singh and Ravi Kulkarni they did go from their unit for a time period up north to trian with Paras. Mr Kukkarni said they trained with 9 Para before their actually going to Kashmir.

Also the team that goes for a deployment in Kashmir spends more time practicing land warfare and learning from years and years of operations than the rest. That is just pure comman sense of how they would be able to operate well despite being a naval unit. The SEAL teams did that, the SBS did that. Everybody does pre-deployment trianing specific to their area of operations

 

[KumaoniReborn]

Even the Paras of 2024 are incapable of doing the ops then how will Marcos do it.

What my best friend Kumaoni always said here but i didnt agree with him earlier but its true now is that Paras of 90s were much capable of handling this than Paras of 2024.

Reason

Not because we "degraded" but because we didnt "upgrade"

Now in 2024 the edge of tech is with these tangos and then some of their instructors have faced US Marines in Afghanistan.

Patak k padh rahi he hume Jammu region me bhai.

Best friend saar i agree.

Although i’d argue we did degrade in multiple aspects. Humint we have none of. Stalking capabilities. Cross LoC ops (LoC wasn’t fenced back then but still). Ambushes in the toughest terrain, etc. Guys like Walia, Jasrotia, etc made up for the otherwise poor state of the IA in 90s. I’m not too sure if paras are able to infiltrate into Hizbul leadership groups and wipe out top commanders cold.

And yes we failed to upgrade big time. Terrorists are firing annd anre escaping under darkness cover. They have steel core bullets which are ripping through army trucks, so our men are getting lit up when they can’t see, etc.

Quality of terrorists have increased since 2015. But then again Lashkar, hizbul, jaish, they have faced us marines and did admirable against them in mutliple engagements.

We need to take the situation more serious.

 

[Jedi Operator]

Paras in 80s and 90s were on par western SFs. Something horrible went wrong in 2000s. When the western world was fighting GWOT and upgraded, we OTOH didn't learned from kashmir (which was our own bloody GWOT) and in result got left behind pathetically

Fully agreed, also I see MARCOS, RR and Paras working together. That is how they do most of these ops in these areas

 

[KumaoniReborn]

MARCOS shouldn’t be in kashmir and Paras shouldn’t be operating in this side of the LoC. PERIOD.

 

[Jedi Operator]

MARCOS shouldn’t be in kashmir and Paras shouldn’t be operating in this side of the LoC. PERIOD.

MARCOS only get deployed to Kashmir (as per Cdr Vijay Rawat in his own interviews) in order to keep themselves combat experienced. And acc to the interview with MARCO Joginder Singh, the total number of deployments MARCOS will get on average in Kashmir would be 1-2.
They have a six month deployment. That makes an avg MARCOS spending 6 months to 1 year in Kashmir in his entire 15 year career. I do not see it as a bad choice. SAS & SBS sent their guys to Northern Ireland for the same reason boss

 

[KumaoniReborn]

Paras in 80s and 90s were on par western SFs. Something horrible went wrong in 2000s. When the western world was fighting GWOT and upgraded, we OTOH didn't learned from kashmir (which was our own bloody GWOT) and in result got left behind pathetically

I’ll tell you what went wrong. It started in the 90s.

General BC JOSHI, the visionary general who was behind the formation of RR (and also a kumaoni ) raised the special forces regiment. This regiment was independent of the army commands and reported directly to COAS, who was the co. It had 1,9,10. As a result, they would be modernized and equipped to the standards of western SOF. It was a mini SOCOM dedicated to indias needs. Then in 95, the next army chief completely chose to disband this and his successors chose to convert multiple airborne battalions to sf. These airborne battalions did phenomenal work in the 90s, but that work was dedicated and to the standard of what rangers were doing.

As a result, battalions get competitive with eachother, modernization gets forgotten, and it becomes a bloodthirst for reputation and izzat in COIN.

The reality of the ground is that special forces shouldn’t be operating inside kashmir as super infantryz They should be directly involved in Baloch or Pathan insurgencies, doing cross Loc strikes, and actively training to take out high level assets on the other side of the border.

 

[KumaoniReborn]

The real concern is why the bloody fuck is the army sending troops in vehicles which can be shot through. The militants HUMINT needs to be talked about here as well.

Like it or not if we don’t use our air-force or any air assets, we will have to go about this old school and win the locals.

 

[lexCommando]

Firstly stop thinking that MARCOS has basic training to do these ops.
How do you define 'basic training' ?
MARCOS get basic training during their selection course. First phase is combat diving, second phase is land warfare and third phase is simialr to SQTs in SEAL teams if simply put. Over the course of their career they develop advanced land warfare skills. Before going to Kashmir they do a 2-month predeployment training up in the mountains, they might choose to go to HAWS or to SFTS with Army SF, I really dont know but from interviews like of MARCO Joginder Singh and Ravi Kulkarni they did go from their unit for a time period up north to trian with Paras. Mr Kukkarni said they trained with 9 Para before their actually going to Kashmir.

Also the team that goes for a deployment in Kashmir spends more time practicing land warfare and learning from years and years of operations than the rest. That is just pure comman sense of how they would be able to operate well despite being a naval unit. The SEAL teams did that, the SBS did that. Everybody does pre-deployment trianing specific to their area of operations

I'm not sure but I think marcos trains at SFTS (not by choice, but under training program)

 

[Jedi Operator]

I'm not sure but I think marcos trains at SFTS (not by choice, but under training program)

not by choice
Part of their pre-deployment training. Before going to Kashmir for their deployment for 6 months they train for 2 months at SFTS & (or) HAWS. I have zero clue how much time they spend in each

 

[Anants]

The real concern is why the bloody fuck is the army sending troops in vehicles which can be shot through. The militants HUMINT needs to be talked about here as well.

Like it or not if we don’t use our air-force or any air assets, we will have to go about this old school and win the locals.

In Jammu, you already won most locals, Govt just need to Arm the loyal locals. And they'll gladly take care of the problem.

 

[KumaoniReborn]

This insurgency is a bit different from the last decade).

2022 saw elimination of all the highest ranking commanders. LeT and JeM HM all collapsed under their OG names so they fracturated into multiple ambush groups, which was further revived by the SSG training and infiltration.

This phase will be a bit similar to the jihad phase of the insurgency (90s/00s) and local insurgency era (2012 onwards). The small groups aren’t having burhan wadi tier militants. We have battle hardened and experienced terrorists like the ones that came in 90s

 

[lexCommando]

This insurgency is a bit different from the last decade).

2022 saw elimination of all the highest ranking commanders. LeT and JeM HM all collapsed under their OG names so they fracturated into multiple ambush groups, which was further revived by the SSG training and infiltration.

This phase will be a bit similar to the jihad phase of the insurgency (90s/00s) and local insurgency era (2012 onwards). The small groups aren’t having burhan wadi tier militants. We have battle hardened and experienced terrorists like the ones that came in 90s

Burhan didn't even knew how to shoot a gun. These terrorists on the other hand are well experienced in gun handling, precise shooting (earlier jihadis were notorious for burst firing but these new guys prefer single precise shots) almost being conscious of their ammo, not to say steel core AP rounds, well versed in terrain and lone surviving skills, Intel gathering and recce using OGWs so as to not overexpose themselves, trained in handing encrypted comms and satellite phones. All of the teams carry laptops and go pros. They are not any less trained then special forces operating behind the enemy lines. We should be ashamed of ourselves