Failed Terrorist State of Pakistan: Idiotic Musings

[Nibbler]

What makes you think if the Chinese are building them 8 submarines with a BM launch capacity in some of them they won't give them an adequate reach BM or CM to go with it ?

Besides why do you think they're going in for a massive expansion of the PN for what with all those frigates corvettes destroyers etc they're getting from around the world? It's to create & protect their "bastion ," that's why.

Ideally they'd have preferred it to be in Gwadar when the PLAN comes to base there which could still be the case next decade .

hangor doesn't have BM launch capacity

cruise missles are always going to be limited in terms of payload they can carry.

what function does a little 5kt nuke on a 400km range cruise missle serve on a submarine?

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

People here are uninformed maybe... all the 8 subs are not the same... it's 2 different models... 4 each... & 4 of them indeed have SLBM capability. Here's the source:

Pakistan Navy's Project S-26/Type 032 Qing-Class & Project S-30/Type 032 Qing-Class Submarines

China’s R & D programme to develop the double-hulled Project S-26/Type 032 Qing-class and Project S-30/Type 032 Qing-class SSK submarine...

trishul-trident.blogspot.com

 

[Nibbler]

People here are uninformed maybe... all the 8 subs are not the same... it's 2 different models... 4 each... & 4 of them indeed have SLBM capability. Here's the source:

Pakistan Navy's Project S-26/Type 032 Qing-Class & Project S-30/Type 032 Qing-Class Submarines

China’s R & D programme to develop the double-hulled Project S-26/Type 032 Qing-class and Project S-30/Type 032 Qing-class SSK submarine...

trishul-trident.blogspot.com

er i thought hangor was a yuan class submarine.

these look to be a much bigger sub, this is a pretty old article too how accurate is it

 

[Yuyutsu]

It seems like folks are missing a key point here. If China has tech that India already possesses, you can bet they'll share it with porks . Whether it's east or west we're really just gearing up to face off against Chinese war machines. Sure, they might keep some of their top-tier tech to themselves, but they'll definitely hand over the less impressive stuff to their dogs.

Take their 5th gen fighters, for example. So, anyone in India thinking we can just outdo Pakistan's weapons and win war is seriously mistaken. We need to either surpass or at least keep up with Chinese tech and weaponry to win war at any end.

 

[Azaad]

hangor doesn't have BM launch capacity

cruise missles are always going to be limited in terms of payload they can carry.

what function does a little 5kt nuke on a 400km range cruise missle serve on a submarine?

That's what I'm asking - how can you be so sure the Hangor class isn't built to accomodate CMs with a larger reach ?

The Israelis have done it with similar capacity submarines. The Chinese have not & will not take too kindly to our second strike capabilities. You can be sure they'd help the Paxtanis get a better class of CMs if not BMs whether land or sea launched , preferably SLCMs for a second strike capability.

Besides the Babur - III missile you're referring to already exists on their Agosta class submarines with a range of 900 kms as per their own sources.

 

[Nibbler]

That's what I'm asking - how can you be so sure the Hangor class isn't built to accomodate CMs with a larger reach ?

The Israelis have done it with similar capacity submarines. The Chinese have not & will not take too kindly to our second strike capabilities. You can be sure they'd help the Paxtanis get a better class of CMs if not BMs whether land or sea launched , preferably SLCMs for a second strike capability.

Besides the Babur - III missile you're referring to already exists on their Agosta class submarines with a range of 900 kms as per their own sources.

i thought 900km is the land launched variant. surely popping out of a torpedo tube underwater has some tradeoffs.

same with range/payload. theres got to be tradeoffs there. second strike as a concept needs to be a credible countervalue threat. idk how little tactical nuke sized warheads offer that.

1st strikes are meant to destroy the opponents strategic nukes/command and control/airfields/ports etc

a credible second strike would be that if you did that the opponent could destroy your cities. the size matters, cause you would sitll retain the ability to wipe their population centres off the map after first strike.

will they be willing to lose lahore/karachi in exchange of tossing 5kt cruise missles at mumbai

 

[Azaad]

i thought 900km is the land launched variant. surely popping out of a torpedo tube underwater has some tradeoffs.

same with range/payload. theres got to be tradeoffs there. second strike as a concept needs to be a credible countervalue threat. idk how little tactical nuke sized warheads offer that.

1st strikes are meant to destroy the opponents strategic nukes/command and control/airfields/ports etc

a credible second strike would be that if you did that the opponent could destroy your cities. the size matters, cause you would sitll retain the ability to wipe their population centres off the map after first strike.

will they be willing to lose lahore/karachi in exchange of tossing 5kt cruise missles at mumbai

Which is the reason I'm of the opinion those submarines they're getting from China will have the ability to launch BM in at least some of them.

In any case their primary & secondary strike weapons are land based. This is more of a deep seated need of theirs to seek parity with us.

Having said that , the destruction caused by a SLCM launched at say Reliance Jamnagar can't be underestimated. That there is the world's biggest oil refinery going up in smoke.

 

[Nibbler]

Which is the reason I'm of the opinion those submarines they're getting from China will have the ability to launch BM in at least some of them.

In any case their primary & secondary strike weapons are land based. This is more of a deep seated need of theirs to seek parity with us.

Having said that , the destruction caused by a SLCM launched at say Reliance Jamnagar can't be underestimated. That there is the world's biggest oil refinery going up in smoke.

Well, if we were to engage in a first strike I would think that intelligence on where these subs are woould be part of the planning. Which is why a SSBN is key to a credible secon strike. They can stay submerged for so long and can be anywhere. The submerged range for a stirling AIP sub the size of the yuan is like 2000km i believe. It will be less for some jumbo version that can launch BM. Draw a radius from karachi thats 1000km and you see that the area that needs to be looked at is not that large (relatively). The have to popup enough that you can somewhat put a picture together surely.

This is all theoretical for now. I think for india to be able to pull off a first strike you would have to see the warhead numbers go up (i hope after the breeder reactor goes online). More surveilenc satelites (which i think is happening).

If the opportunity ever does present itself though, I hope there is someone with the balls to push that button around.

Fuck pakistan

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

Kis book mein likha hai... that 2nd strike should be able to reach all parts of India... prominent cities of Gujarat, Mumbai, Pune, Thane, Bengaluru, all of kerala are within 300km of coastline(same for Chennai, vishakhapatnam etc. on eastern coast)... add 300km more standoff range... a 600km sub launched nuke armed cruise missile does the job.

That said... Pakis are getting 4x nuke SLBM armed conventional subs... the SLBM probably being JL-1.

 

[Blood+]

Why indeed

View: https://twitter.com/oulosP/status/1867834038284955736

 

[Illusive]

Which is the reason I'm of the opinion those submarines they're getting from China will have the ability to launch BM in at least some of them.

In any case their primary & secondary strike weapons are land based. This is more of a deep seated need of theirs to seek parity with us.

Having said that , the destruction caused by a SLCM launched at say Reliance Jamnagar can't be underestimated. That there is the world's biggest oil refinery going up in smoke.

Is it possible to detect subs from satellites using specialized camera's and sensors and use AI to remove other anomalies caught on this and detect threats from above?

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Kis book mein likha hai... that 2nd strike should be able to reach all parts of India... prominent cities of Gujarat, Mumbai, Pune, Thane, Bengaluru, all of kerala are within 300km of coastline(same for Chennai, vishakhapatnam etc. on eastern coast)... add 300km more standoff range... a 600km sub launched nuke armed cruise missile does the job.

That said... Pakis are getting 4x nuke SLBM armed conventional subs... the SLBM probably being JL-1.

tell me how u can fire SLBM from torpedo tubes?? do chinese subs hv 4 VLS on it, just like south korean submarine hv. torpedo tubes width is only 533 mm...it can launch a mini cruise missile (like harpoon, exocet etc), not even proper cruise missile like tomohawk etc. when u cant fire 6 meter long tomohawk cruise missiles from ur torpedo tubes, how r u guys assuming it will fire more lengthy nd widthy ballistic missiles from toroedo tubes????? pakistan can only launch babur 3, which hv 400-500 km range. nd it is a subsonic cruise missile. if india hv barak 8 carried warships between pakistani submarine nd indian beach, barak 8 can neutralize it. barak 8 even counter armenian ballistic missiles in Azerbaijan. our major cities should hv BMD nd sam missiles. meanwhile we hv many antisubmarine platforms...from p8i posiden, romeo helicopter, anti submarine destroyer, frigate nd corvette....even we developed SMART antisubmarine missiles, which can hit submarines from 700 km range. if other system can detect enemy submarine. our diesel submarines also present in arab sea. so its not easy for pakistan to fire missiles in india. it can be detected nd neutralized also. but india will definitely counter strike pakistan after that, which pakistan hv no answer. atleast we hv platforms which "can" detect nd neutralize pakistan submarine nd its missiles also.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

What makes you think if the Chinese are building them 8 submarines with a BM launch capacity in some of them they won't give them an adequate reach BM or CM to go with it ?

Besides why do you think they're going in for a massive expansion of the PN for what with all those frigates corvettes destroyers etc they're getting from around the world? It's to create & protect their "bastion ," that's why.

Ideally they'd have preferred it to be in Gwadar when the PLAN comes to base there which could still be the case next decade .

why u feel threatened about that thing, which chinese hv not capabilities?? no chinese hv VLS nd no chinese "diesel submarine" can fire SLBM. if u know, name them plz. now if chinese didnt build their diesel submarine with VLS nd SLBM, how can they provide these capabilities to pakistan submarine. pakistani new hangor class can only fire their sub sonic 500 km range babur 3 cruise missile (nuclear tipped) from its torpedo tubes. this threat is already present in their 3 older franch agosta 90 B class submarine. i dont think its a major problem, u can say its middle level threat. but yes 8 diesel AIP submarine is headache for us, coz we hv only 6 modern submarine (yet without AIP). indian submarine will hv even better cruise missile in our diesel submarine. already DRDO tested a 500 km range subsonic cruise missile nd soon brahmos ng will give supersonic 300 km range from our submarine toroedo tubes. right now i think we r using exocet missile from our french scorpion submarine, which hv near 50-100 km range from submarine.

 

[Azaad]

Is it possible to detect subs from satellites using specialized camera's and sensors and use AI to remove other anomalies caught on this and detect threats from above?

SAR - Synthetic Aperture Radar is a space based asset used to locate submarines. Apparently the US has also pioneered air based hyperspectral imagery to detect submarines . Beyond that I'm unaware as to its efficacy.

Submarine Detection and Monitoring: Open-Source Tools and Technologies

Using tools like commercial satellite imagery, radar, sensors, and media analysis, we can understand fleet details, construction, and potentially patrol patterns and behaviors.

www.nti.org

 

[Azaad]

why u feel threatened about that thing, which chinese hv not capabilities?? no chinese hv VLS nd no chinese "diesel submarine" can fire SLBM. if u know, name them plz. now if chinese didnt build their diesel submarine with VLS nd SLBM, how can they provide these capabilities to pakistan submarine. pakistani new hangor class can only fire their sub sonic 500 km range babur 3 cruise missile (nuclear tipped) from its torpedo tubes. this threat is already present in their 3 older franch agosta 90 B class submarine. i dont think its a major problem, u can say its middle level threat. but yes 8 diesel AIP submarine is headache for us, coz we hv only 6 modern submarine (yet without AIP). indian submarine will hv even better cruise missile in our diesel submarine. already DRDO tested a 500 km range subsonic cruise missile nd soon brahmos ng will give supersonic 300 km range from our submarine toroedo tubes. right now i think we r using exocet missile from our french scorpion submarine, which hv near 50-100 km range from submarine.

First of the bat - have you read # 3102 & the linked article in this very thread ? If not I suggest you read it. A lot of your misconceptions will be cleared.

Secondly who told you the Chinese lack VLS in their submarines ? The Chinese don't use the JF-17 too but they built it for Paxtan. Similarly they can very well adapt a VLS to fit into the submarines they export to Paxtan.

I'd once again recommend you to read the article linked in the said post.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

First of the bat - have you read # 3102 & the linked article in this very thread ? If not I suggest you read it. A lot of your misconceptions will be cleared.

Secondly who told you the Chinese lack VLS in their submarines ? The Chinese don't use the JF-17 too but they built it for Paxtan. Similarly they can very well adapt a VLS to fit into the submarines they export to Paxtan.

I'd once again recommend you to read the article linked in the said post.

i read that article....it hv too many mistakes.
1:- pakistani isnt getting qing class submarine but 8 hangor class submarine, which r export version of yuan class diesel submarine. yuan class hv no VLS nd SLBM missiles, how can they give it in export version to pakistan? they hv to do too much upgrade to inbuilt VLS on it, its not easy task. thats why only two diseal submarine (russian amur class nd south korean diesel submarine) hv VLS capabilities.

China launches first of 8 advanced submarines for Pakistan Navy

Contract for Hangor-class vessels was signed in 2015 during a visit by Chinese President Xi Jinping.

www.google.com

2:- in qing class submarine they r saying its first type S26 will be 3797 ton displacement (random number)...than it says it s30 version will be 6628 ton displacement. again random number. no diesel submarine in world is higher displacement than 3600 ton yet.
3:- they r saying this project is started from 2005 nd its S26 version commenced in 2012. but its S30 version hv no clue. they r saying it will commence in 2020. so its very old article.
4:- they r also saying these two only for pakistan, not for china. so china made S26 (qing class) for pakistan in 2012, but pakistan make deal with china in 2016 for hangor class submarine.
5:- even its true, S26 hv no VLS on it. it present only in supposed 6628 ton S30 class submarine. article also said S26 delivery will start from 2015 to pakistan.
i think article written by a indian, by watching some pakistani fan boy video or defense forum post. who hv very little knowledge about diesel submarine.