India at Olympics

[Aaj Ka Hero]

I almost never watch cricket so cannot comment on it.

They lost against Germany because Craig Fulton insists on a defense first hockey that sacrifices on offensive prowess to maintain defensive stability (he did not include 3 of our best forwards in the Paris bound squad just because they were not very consistent in a defensive setup) but adopted a hyper attacking approach against the Germans (very similar to the strategy of Graham Reid, our manager back in Tokyo) where chances could not be converted because as I already mentioned, Fulton's squad excluded the best Indian attackers (Selvam Karthi, Dilpreet, Hundal/Simran).

Now why he changed his strategy is something only the manager can answer but Fulton's tactics worked against Australia, GB and Spain. It just did not happen to work that day.

Also, Amit Rohidas' absence costed them big time. He was the first rusher in our PC defense but had to be replaced by others due to his suspension - something Gonzallo Peillat (one of the most feared drag flickers in the world) took full advantage of. And there were officiating errors too, the penalty stroke Germany earned should have been a PC only (the 3rd umpire did not have the camera angles to determine whether the ball was going in or not).

And Germany eked out a narrow 3-2 victory only; how exactly is that a 'choke'? (Seeing this word a lot on SM, is it a cricket slang?)

Past h2h records are irrelevant in major events because teams tend to experiment a lot in the FIH Pro League/test series/invitational tourneys. India had terrible h2h against Australia in the run up to the games (we were handed a 7-1 mauling back in Tokyo 2020) and yet, managed to clinch all 3 points against them in Paris.

You need 'veterans' to win medals in major events - a lot of our medal contenders were u20/u23 athletes and hence, all those near misses. A short 3 year Olympic cycle had already made it difficult for youngsters to break into; nations who had a steady supply of experienced campaigners took advantage of it (was not the case with India; us making serious investments into Olympic sports is a very recent development). Many of these u20/u23 athletes will go and bring medals in future games - just like Manu Bhaker and Aman Sehrawat (who are still u23 athletes btw).

Other nations too had young athletes those who won first time gold, were they lucky? No, they were trained to overcome the CHOKE, by the conditioning coach or by their seniors in the game.

India has started just now for olympics is just another choking masquerading argument, they themselves where saying more than 10 medals, go and tell them.

You yourself are defining things that lead to choke and then you are saying, because of LESS EXPERIENCE they fell. The hockey team surrendered completely in the fourth quarter, it seems they were thinking, it will go to penalties where sreejesh will save them again, time after time Germans were pressing with their usual european joke name penalty corner and keeping the pressure.
As for others sports Go and tell this to Prakash Padukone and Bindra.Because it's look like when they were choosing team, they didn't know experience mattered despite them being the veterans here, like, that can ever happen and them the greats will ever miss this in their selection.

You know, constant juggling between causes which can again cause the same thing next time can also lead to choking, it's like they know this will cause problem but couldn't do anything about it despite knowing the cause or they overdid to rectify it, only to miss other things.

(And, the definition of choking that I gave was from internet and it no where mentioned cricket, it is universal, it talks about sports.)

And a nation being favored in games, it always happen, definitely you know about this, that's why I was saying, take Olympics like a war.

 

[Physx32]

What do I do? Olympic sports are funded by govt bodies/PSUs only (with additional contributions from the likes of Jindals and Reliance). Investment into Olympic sports is very much a real thing now, as documented in media typically not considered pro govt (Chindu, Indian Express).

Temporary house in Germany, special horse feed: How Olympic cell paved road to Paris

Overall, officials say, Rs 72 crore were spent under the Target Olympic Podium Scheme (TOPS) during the three-year Olympic cycle from Tokyo in Covid-hit 2021 to Paris -- almost double that of Rio 2016

indianexpress.com

Unsung heroes, jugaad, more resources and better reach: How India has tripled Asian Games medals tally in two decades

The Indian Express investigation threw up a series of telling numbers. Take two: Around 65 per cent of the medallists are from families with less than Rs 5 lakh income per annum and 33 per cent were born and raised in rural India.

web.archive.org

Folks do not follow these sports, won't be able to name the contenders before the games, the sports thread back in old DFI remained largely inactive and yet, we have the esteemed analysts of the Defence Forum for Bhosdapillars (DFB) writing long posts detailing how Indian athletes are 'choking'!

Did you even watch a single Olympic game? Watch the QF for women's archery (Deepika Kumari), and bronze medal match for mixed archery (Ankita-Dhiraj). Then watch Lakshya's bronze medal match. In all these matches, they choked HARD.

The only athlete who didn't choke is Neeraj.

We were actually returning with 0 medals back in the '90s - in case you did not know.

India ranked 71 in Paris 2024 with 117 athletes. In 1996, the rank was 71 with 49 athletes. This is the worst performance since 1996 - in case you didn't know.

 

[crazywithmath]

Other nations too had young athletes those who won first time gold, were they lucky? No, they were trained to overcome the CHOKE, by the conditioning coach or by their seniors in the game.

India has started just now for olympics is just another choking masquerading argument, they themselves where saying more than 10 medals, go and tell them.

You yourself are defining things that lead to choke and then you are saying, because of LESS EXPERIENCE they fell. The hockey team surrendered completely in the fourth quarter, it seems they were thinking, it will go to penalties where sreejesh will save them again, time after time Germans were pressing with their usual european joke name penalty corner and keeping the pressure.
As for others sports Go and tell this to Prakash Padukone and Bindra.Because it's look like when they were choosing team, they didn't know experience mattered despite them being the veterans here, like, that can ever happen and them the greats will ever miss this in their selection.

You know, constant juggling between causes which can again cause the same thing next time can also lead to choking, it's like they know this will cause problem but couldn't do anything about it despite knowing the cause or they overdid to rectify it, only to miss other things.

(And, the definition of choking that I gave was from internet and it no where mentioned cricket, it is universal, it talks about sports.)

And a nation being favored in games, it always happen, definitely you know about this, that's why I was saying, take Olympics like a war.

Hockey team lost because they did not take their chances for reasons already mentioned in my post. A 50-50 match can flip either way, this same lot won a similar closely contested bronze medal match back in Tokyo - a match that eventually ended 5-4 in India's favor; did the Germans 'choke' back then? Belgium, the reigning Olympic champions and the gold medal contenders, could not even go past the QF, did they 'choke' too? Australia were so used to give us one drubbing after another but lost in Paris, did they 'choke'?

The truth is that international hockey is insanely competitive, any 3 of the top 8-9 nations can medal on a given day. India returned with a medal because we had some veterans (Manpreet, Harmanpreet) and a hugely experienced goalie who knew how to step up on the occasion.

And I do not really care if certain nations are favored in the games (happens on every edition), I wrote about it cuz I thought some people would say Asian Games were not taken seriously by others (just cuz India performed better there). If the Asiad were that irrelevant chinkus would not bother rigging their matches out there.

As far as age and experience are concerned, you definitely need a lot of experience before medalling at an event like the Olympics; especially for nations like us whose domestic competitions/trials have started getting competitive only recently. The likes of the US and chinkus can manage (to an extent) with their young talents because they have had the NCAA and chinese nationals circuit (2 of the most insanely competitive domestic competitions on the planet) respectively for decades.

Even then, experience matters. Look how Noah Lyles messed up his 200 m. Novak Djokovic had to wait till he was 37 to win his first Olympic gold. Aaron Brooks lost to a veteran Ramazanov in the 86 kg FS.

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Hockey team lost because they did not take their chances for reasons already mentioned in my post. A 50-50 match can flip either way, this same lot won a similar closely contested bronze medal match back in Tokyo - a match that eventually ended 5-4 in India's favor; did the Germans 'choke' back then? Belgium, the reigning Olympic champions and the gold medal contenders, could not even go past the QF, did they 'choke' too? Australia were so used to give us one drubbing after another but lost in Paris, did they 'choke'?

The truth is that international hockey is insanely competitive, any 3 of the top 8-9 nations can medal on a given day. India returned with a medal because we had some veterans (Manpreet, Harmanpreet) and a hugely experienced goalie who knew how to step up on the occasion.

And I do not really care if certain nations are favored in the games (happens on every edition), I wrote about it cuz I thought some people would say Asian Games were not taken seriously by others (just cuz India performed better there). If the Asiad were that irrelevant chinkus would not bother rigging their matches out there.

As far as age and experience are concerned, you definitely need a lot of experience before medalling at an event like the Olympics; especially for nations like us whose domestic competitions/trials have started getting competitive only recently. The likes of the US and chinkus can manage (to an extent) with their young talents because they have had the NCAA and chinese nationals circuit (2 of the most insanely competitive domestic competitions on the planet) respectively for decades.

Even then, experience matters. Look how Noah Lyles messed up his 200 m. Novak Djokovic had to wait till he was 37 to win his first Olympic gold. Aaron Brooks lost to a veteran Ramazanov in the 86 kg FS.

I don't care about other nations because they don't matter, Why are you giving example of other teams? What matters is why India lost? Or are you going to say it was because of BAD LUCK, you are already mentioning 50:50, that right there, this is age old Indian remedy of blaming anyone except them.

Aggression was simply not their from Indian side, as I already mentioned before, VARCHASWA was not there.

The IOA themselves were saying they could get 10 medals, I am questioning where are those medals? one cannot just simply raise hopes and then say but WE TRIED.

By your theory, archery world cup should also be considered important as similar to Asian Games, we performed well there, everyone know what happened in olympics, that's choke.

And for, Belgium hockey team, let me tell you, they are previous winners.
Germany is world cup winner.
And latest news for everyone, Netherlands too now have 8 golds equalizing ours total tally,
What we have? Bronze, and PR Sreejesh retirement. Great, let there be 50:50.

You too are going to be there in next olympics and I too will be there, let's see.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Truth is probably in the middle.
We were both inexperienced and had a natural Indian tendency to choke hard.

 

[crazywithmath]

I don't care about other nations because they don't matter, Why are you giving example of other teams? What matters is why India lost? Or are you going to say it was because of BAD LUCK, you are already mentioning 50:50, that right there, this is age old Indian remedy of blaming anyone except them.

Aggression was simply not their from Indian side, as I already mentioned before, VARCHASWA was not there.

The IOA themselves were saying they could get 10 medals, I am questioning where are those medals? one cannot just simply raise hopes and then say but WE TRIED.

By your theory, archery world cup should also be considered important as similar to Asian Games, we performed well there, everyone know what happened in olympics, that's choke.

And for, Belgium hockey team, let me tell you, they are previous winners.
Germany is world cup winner.
And latest news for everyone, Netherlands too now have 8 golds equalizing ours total tally,
What we have? Bronze, and PR Sreejesh retirement. Great, let there be 50:50.

You too are going to be there in next olympics and I too will be there, let's see.

Archers underperformed because the federation has deep rooted issues where a deep cleaning is likely incoming;

A tale of two federations: Why archery keeps missing the mark (and how shooting got its sights back)

India's archers returned empty-handed once more - can the federation learn from shooting's resurgence?

www.espn.in

Either way, I am done with this shit. Cannot respond to empty hyperbole from a person who clearly does not watch a lot of hockey. If back to back podium finishes (something not even Belgium managed to do this time) look like 'choking' to you then so be it.

There is a subreddit dedicated to hockey (called r/fieldhockey), consider checking out the India-Germany match thread out there.

 

[crazywithmath]

Did you even watch a single Olympic game? Watch the QF for women's archery (Deepika Kumari), and bronze medal match for mixed archery (Ankita-Dhiraj). Then watch Lakshya's bronze medal match. In all these matches, they choked HARD.

The only athlete who didn't choke is Neeraj.


India ranked 71 in Paris 2024 with 117 athletes. In 1996, the rank was 71 with 49 athletes. This is the worst performance since 1996 - in case you didn't know.

Lakshya was not even a medal contender and was coming back from a bad 2023 season. He beat Jojo (who was in red hot form and the reigning All England champion) and CTC - both of whom were medal contenders. And he has a habit of losing too many points in a row from winning positions - that is inexperience.

SatChi were the true medal contenders but back to back injuries and a lack of match practice got up to them.

The issue in badminton is that we never had any depth to begin with. We do produce some generational talents who go to World Championships/Asian Games/Olympics and return with medals. SatChi were expected to play that role this time around; too bad not to be and that is exactly what we get for so little depth in the sport.

I have already posted on the archery bit; reposting;

A tale of two federations: Why archery keeps missing the mark (and how shooting got its sights back)

India's archers returned empty-handed once more - can the federation learn from shooting's resurgence?

www.espn.in

As far as medals are concerned, if you think 1 bronze >> 1 silver + 5 bronze then so be it.

India did not even medal for three consecutive games before 1996. And all 117 of our athletes had to qualify in 2024, it is not the '80s and '90s anymore when we were too incompetent to get our athletes qualified and the IOC used to give us bonus quotas cuz they took pity on us (they still do this to nations like pak and bd).

 

[crazywithmath]

We were both inexperienced and had a natural Indian tendency to choke hard.

Aren't both correlated? Why did not prime PV Sindhu ever 'choke'? Why does not Neeraj choke? Aman Sehrawat tech-ed a freaking world champion in his bout, why didn't he choke? Manu Bhaker was called a 'choker' back in Tokyo, why didn't she 'choke' this time too?

Just cuz they had a lot of international exposure already?

 

[Suryavanshi]

remember chinkus did not win a single Olympic medal before 1984.

Bro how would they win medals when they were boycotting it?
When they did participate in 1984 they won 32 with 15 golds.
We were at the same level back then economy wise.
How do you justify that.

 

[SKC]

To those bhosdapilled by incels and edgy armchair journalists (who barely follow Olympic sports in non Olympic events) - remember chinkus did not win a single Olympic medal before 1984.

Chinks attended the first Olympics as China in 1984 only where they ended up winning total of 32 medals
and ended up at 4th place:

China competed at the Olympic Games under the name of the People's Republic of China (PRC) for the first time at the 1952 Summer Olympics held in Helsinki, Finland, although they only arrived in time during the last days to participate in one event.​

​

That year, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) allowed both the PRC and ROC (Republic of China) (which fled to Taiwan after the Chinese Civil War) to compete with the name "China", although the latter withdrew in protest.​

​

Due to the dispute over the political status of the "two Chinas", the PRC started a period of isolationism, withdrawing from several international sporting bodies and the UN system until the mid-1970s, when the country participated for the first time in the Asian Games in 1974 and the World University Games in 1977.​

​

Returning to the IOC officially only in 1979, which gave it the right to send an official delegation, starting from the 1980 Winter Olympics in Lake Placid, United States.​

 

[crazywithmath]

Bro how would they win medals when they were boycotting it?
When they did participate in 1984 they won 32 with 15 golds.

Was waiting for this response.....

Chinkus actually participated in a few editions prior to the 1984 games (including, but not limited to Helsinki 1952) - sometimes with big delegations but never medalled. The premiers were embarrassed and sent a lot of coaches/trainers to Soviet Russia and Europe to study and learn different sports from them. Their efforts started bearing fruits from late '70s onward;

As mentioned earlier in this chapter, any international victory for China at this stage was extremely desirable. Eventually, not only the Kuomintang government sent a delegation of a hundred and seven (sixty-nine of which were athletes) people to Berlin, but it also sent a group of forty-two members to Berlin and other European cities to study sports in Europe. Among the group members were educators, government/military officials, and sports organizers,who spent over a month traveling to seven countries including Germany, Italy, and Denmark (Zheng & Zhao, 1992).

While the PRC initially showed little interest in the 1952 Games, it also adopted an official policy to learn from the Soviet during this time (Li, 2002).

Sports, seen by the Chinese government as a tool to serve for politics, naturally, underwent a systematic change in China at this time. It is commonly believed by scholars that during this time a heavy emphasis on winning was put in place in order to mirror a positive image of China and improve its international reputation (Yu, 2010; Xu, 2008). Consequently, China saw a significant increase in the quantity and quality of national-level competitions (“China Returning”, 1981). When Zhong Shitong, president of the Chinese Olympic Committee announced China’s plan to take part in the1980 Moscow Games before China’s eventual decision to boycott, he also included the 1984 Olympics as part of China’s plan. After 1980, China experienced a significant improvement in its athletes’ performances, an achievement that was attributed to the government’s financial support and the recent reform of the sport system that included more sports (Li, 2001).

As they got better in sports, they returned with a bang.

Same story as their economic reforms, early starters enjoying the head start.

 

[shiphone]

Chinkus actually participated in a few editions prior to the 1984 games (including, but not limited to Helsinki 1952) - sometimes with big delegations but never medalled. The premiers were embarrassed and sent a lot of coaches/trainers to Soviet Russia and Europe to study and learn different sports from them. Their efforts started bearing fruits from late '70s onward;

lol...making up stories again....what's wrong with your education system???

China at the Olympics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[SKC]

Was waiting for this response.....

Chinkus actually participated in a few editions prior to the 1984 games (including, but not limited to Helsinki 1952) - sometimes with big delegations but never medalled. The premiers were embarrassed and sent a lot of coaches/trainers to Soviet Russia and Europe to study and learn different sports from them. Their efforts started bearing fruits from late '70s onward;







As they got better in sports, they returned with a bang.

Same story as their economic reforms, early starters enjoying the head start.

Drinking Too Much Cohopium is injurious to health!

 

[crazywithmath]

lol...making up stories again....what's wrong with your education system???

China at the Olympics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I don't get it, why are you wumaos even on this thread? I did not even shit on you chinks...go tell the person who authored this paper. I only cited from it.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Was waiting for this response.....

Chinkus actually participated in a few editions prior to the 1984 games (including, but not limited to Helsinki 1952) - sometimes with big delegations but never medalled. The premiers were embarrassed and sent a lot of coaches/trainers to Soviet Russia and Europe to study and learn different sports from them. Their efforts started bearing fruits from late '70s onward;







As they got better in sports, they returned with a bang.

Same story as their economic reforms, early starters enjoying the head start.

You were justifying indias performance to that of China by pointing that even they didn't win any medal until 1984 but that's just false equivalence.
And your still justifying it by pointing to I don't know what.

People here are acknowledging the limit of a gormint funded program, any gormint program will suffer the same fate that other gormint department suffer. Yount Team isn't the sole factor, China has young participants as well and they have won medal to back that up.

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Archers underperformed because the federation has deep rooted issues where a deep cleaning is likely incoming;

A tale of two federations: Why archery keeps missing the mark (and how shooting got its sights back)

India's archers returned empty-handed once more - can the federation learn from shooting's resurgence?

www.espn.in

Either way, I am done with this shit. Cannot respond to empty hyperbole from a person who clearly does not watch a lot of hockey. If back to back podium finishes (something not even Belgium managed to do this time) look like 'choking' to you then so be it.

There is a subreddit dedicated to hockey (called r/fieldhockey), consider checking out the India-Germany match thread out there.

Don't go into personal attack spree. It is not advisable.
And there again, your tendency of defeatist mindset that is there with Indians, which is ENVIRONMENT IS TO BLAME, I CANNOT BE BLAMED in this comment of yours "Archers underperformed because the federation has deep rooted issues where a deep cleaning is likely incoming".
So, the same federation was great in 2024 world cup but now needs deep cleaning after olympics, say na directly it is choke.

 

[crazywithmath]

You were justifying indias performance to that of China by pointing that even they didn't win any medal until 1984 but that's just false equivalence.
And your still justifying it by pointing to I don't know what.

People here are acknowledging the limit of a gormint funded program, any gormint program will suffer the same fate that other gormint department suffer. Yount Team isn't the sole factor, China has young participants as well and they have won medal to back that up.

No, my point was that internet trolls will behave like trolls only - had there been internet in the '70s they would have typed BS on chinks too.

Chinkus did not win a single Olympic medal before 1984. I wonder how these trolls would have reacted had SM been a thing back then too.

Majority of the Olympic disciplines will remain govt funded only because barring the team sports (football, volleyball etc) and some exceptions like tennis, professional boxing etc professional tours do not exist in the rest. In absence of govt support it will be insanely difficult for athletes to self-finance. Even the nations who are bagging medals are doing so because of their govt support only.

Lastly, age distribution of medallists from Tokyo 2020 and why I keep saying experience is important.

 

[crazywithmath]

Don't go into personal attack spree. It is not advisable.
And there again, your tendency of defeatist mindset that is there with Indians, which is ENVIRONMENT IS TO BLAME, I CANNOT BE BLAMED in this comment of yours "Archers underperformed because the federation has deep rooted issues where a deep cleaning is likely incoming".
So, the same federation was great in 2024 world cup but now needs deep cleaning after olympics, say na directly it is choke.

At least read the damn article;

In Paris, Bommadevara more than anyone else showed up that he was made for the Big 2 'O's: The Olympics and the Occasion. Which is usually where Indian archery goes into hiding. The mixed team semi-final qualification was the exception more than a norm. "Every Olympics we shoot great in qualification - we were in men's and women's team top four, first time ever. Why? No pressure," says the insider. "The moment the pressure of elimination comes, they choke. Why? Because this pressure is never there in training, there is no intensity, there is no seriousness. If you don't do it in training, you cannot do it in the match. Why do they do well in world championships? Because no one is watching - maybe 11 crows and two buffaloes. There is no pressure, no scrutiny. In the Olympics, everyone is watching."

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

At least read the damn article;

I am talking about your comment.
You have every right to leave my points as hyperbole, I too have every right to believe in the theory of choking and that's right.
India don't have mentality of winning gold in olympics, Neeraj was aberration, can't be compared with gold factories of USA and China.

 

[crazywithmath]

Don't go into personal attack spree. It is not advisable.

Did not notice this before, where exactly is the personal attack?

This bit here?

Cannot respond to empty hyperbole from a person who clearly does not watch a lot of hockey.

You have a thin skin then.