Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Fatalis]

And what will Su-57 do? Will it also become a game changer and change the dynamics completely? PLAAF will have close to 400 5th gen fighters by then.

 

[Knowitall]

Making a dorito shaped jet doesn't automatically make it 6th gen, just saying.

What it looks like, its mostly a stealth bomber concept. I saw a twitter post saying it is manned/unmanned bomber concept.

That is too much of an oversimplification and mockery of a design that is being studied by both the US under NGAD and Europe under their own respective programs.

We are talking about a manned/unmanned fighter or bomber making it the second aircraft in the world after B-21 to do. We are talking about a new technological breakthrough in design with only the US operating such tailless jets in the form of b-2 and b-21.

From what we have as of now 3 engines would mean the chinese would end up having the first stealth jet in the world with this feature.

J-20 is rapidly improving and has recently flown with ws-15.

Pentagon: China Working on Upgrades to Top Stealth Fighter

China is upgrading its J-20 stealth fighter and experimenting with manned-unmanned teaming, the Pentagon's latest China report says.

www.airandspaceforces.com

The pentagon does not underestimate it and neither should we.

All said and done this aircraft will be in testing for the next few years but that also means India’s chances of having a 5th gen aircraft before 2040 outside of imports is null.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Do we have an option here ?

There is no way the US will give us the F35s to us without us handing over our kidneys and liver to them.

The US will ask for nothing less than giving them control over a few of our air force and naval bases.
Or else they would ask for the entire fleet of IAF's F35s to be operated and maintained by US personnel and billing us such hefty sums that the IAF won't be able to operate any other aircraft in its inventory.

The Su-57 is useless. Our only option right now is to finish AMCA in mission mode and make the first flight happen next year. Then seriously fund the engine program to get something usable out of it in 5 years.

 

[Nutcracker]

That is too much of an oversimplification and mockery of a design that is being studied by both the US under NGAD and Europe under their own respective programs.

We are talking about a manned/unmanned fighter or bomber making it the second aircraft in the world after B-21 to do. We are talking about a new technological breakthrough in design with only the US operating such tailless jets in the form of b-2 and b-21.

From what we have as of now 3 engines would mean the chinese would end up having the first stealth jet in the world with this feature.

J-20 is rapidly improving and has recently flown with ws-15.

Pentagon: China Working on Upgrades to Top Stealth Fighter

China is upgrading its J-20 stealth fighter and experimenting with manned-unmanned teaming, the Pentagon's latest China report says.

www.airandspaceforces.com

The pentagon does not underestimate it and neither should we.

All said and done this aircraft will be in testing for the next few years but that also means India’s chances of having a 5th gen aircraft before 2040 outside of imports is null.

Still this seems to be 5th gen only. There is no clear definition about 6th gen. Flying wing stealth bomber has been flying since 90s. Even our Ghatak will be FW design.

Using third auxiliary also tells that for all it's glitter China doesn't seem to have mere 100kN dry thrust low bypass engine yet.

But design is smart. It plans to reach within 500-1000km to the target using two main engines, and then probably use the third one to generate auxiliary power for EW suite to fly through a defended airspace.

 

[Knowitall]

Still this seems to be 5th gen only. There is no clear definition about 6th gen. Flying wing stealth bomber has been flying since 90s. Even our Ghatak will be FW design.

Using third auxiliary also tells that for all it's glitter China doesn't seem to have mere 100kN dry thrust low bypass engine yet.

But design is smart. It plans to reach within 500-1000km to the target using two main engines, and then probably use the third one to generate auxiliary power for EW suite to fly through a defended airspace.

China will soon be launching its main long range bomber i.e the H-20 so i dont think engines are an issue here. This is more of a change in design philosophy and only time will tell the actual reason for this design.

As for ghatak let the 1:1 model fly first. Drones are a different category altogether. The chinese already have various models like ghatak in development and production. Same goes for US France and Russia but they seem to be pursuing these kind of jets too.

 

[angryindian]

The Su-57 is useless. Our only option right now is to finish AMCA in mission mode and make the first flight happen next year. Then seriously fund the engine program to get something usable out of it in 5 years.

Do you seriously think that a country that has not yet managed to induct a basic trainer like HTJ36 in 21 years since its first flight will manage to finish 5th gen AMCA project in record time?

 

[Spitfire IX]

Crippling IAF gaps force government to set up panel for new road map | India News - The Times of India

India News: India's Air Force is facing a significant shortage of fighter jets and support aircraft. A high-level committee has been formed to address these gaps,

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

In a country in which, IMO, procurement is severely hampered if not arguably crippled by bureaucracy and bureaucratic process, the solution to the problems so created is to set up another committee?

 

[truthsoldier]

The country has so much money for freebies but no money for funding critical strategic projects. Ladli behna yojana of just 1 state costs 18000 crores while punjab spends 20,000 cr on free electricity. Union govts freebie budget stands at 4 Lkh cr and yet chindigiri for defence R&D. Maybe we are not destined for greatness..

 

[Anants]

Crippling IAF gaps force government to set up panel for new road map | India News - The Times of India

India News: India's Air Force is facing a significant shortage of fighter jets and support aircraft. A high-level committee has been formed to address these gaps,

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

In a country in which, IMO, procurement is severely hampered if not arguably crippled by bureaucracy and bureaucratic process, the solution to the problems so created is to set up another committee?

Apart from India you mean? It's yours.. Britain. Tell us which is the next naval ship that is going to be axed?

 

[Anants]

Guys don't you know what shall be our solution by govt? Media shall create more hype about Chinese Dosa. Indian airforce high level committee shall say: Saar we found solution and antidote. It shall be : order more more Rafael- the French crepe. So that IAF gets khush for 1 year, ADA gets slow cooked for next 10 years, Govt pats it's back till next GE27.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Apart from India you mean? It's yours.. Britain. Tell us which is the next naval ship that is going to be axed?

Apart from India you mean? It's yours.. Britain. Tell us which is the next naval ship that is going to be axed?

I'm British. I am also an analyst by profession. I am critical where I see failure. I criticise the British procurement system where I see failure, just as I criticise Indian procurement. The comparative magnitude of the incompetence of and in the two systems means that I criticise India more.

 

[TumAapHum]

India is unserious country run by bureaucrats with god complex. Our civilization has long been in decline with a dead cat bounce in last few decades offering a fleeting hope of rejuvenation.

But nothing is gonna change. I have given up on this country. Fuck the politicians, babus and generals equally.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Do you seriously think that a country that has not yet managed to induct a basic trainer like HTJ36 in 21 years since its first flight will manage to finish 5th gen AMCA project in record time?

Yep that's exactly what this county has to do. Go nuts. Cut the crap, the red tapes, and just full send. Nothing's impossible with enough national will. Otherwise we'll keep languishing between chai biskit sessions and MRFA scheme forever.

 

[shauryaman65]

View attachment 19660

At this rate they will throw America out of East Asia without firing a single bullet or missile
Like how the West did fuck all while USSR marched till East Germany, Czechoslovakia etc and refused to go back

Haha bad example, you should know how that ended for the USSR.


Although we should worry about our own asses than america's tbh.

 

[Anants]

I'm British. I am also an analyst by profession. I am critical where I see failure. I criticise the British procurement system where I see failure, just as I criticise Indian procurement. The comparative magnitude of the incompetence of and in the two systems means that I criticise India more.

Good on ya mate. Enjoy your criticizing Indian and tearing one's hair over British.. Hobby. Enjoy

 

[Anants]

Naaah...I would stick with my FB-22 theory.
View attachment 19697

MCA laughs from somewhere within heap of discarded files at ADA. As india gains experience on Ghatak. Advanced\Revamped (for stealth) maybe feasible once again.. But the again its late night musing

 

[Anants]

you cannot match China in terms of capability to capability them you have approach problem with what has China done to US in last 20 years - first invest and keep investing in domestic industry and alternative pick out tech from outside to undermine the strength of your opponent - pick limited number of <Insert Latest Russian/French/British vaporware of the era> and Rafael in another batch of 2 Sqds and keep the <insert advanced on paper project musing on ADA> on fast track , these desi corrupt babus in DRDO and HAL not reliable - pick PVt industry partners.

I just converted your post into a template which has been used in past and can be reused in foreseeable future too

 

[shade2]

We've done enough of "they've done that, we're yet to do this" but as of now no-one seems interested in discussing what exactly it'd bring to the table and how this would be a challenge for us.

It is a challenge for us because the AMCA will be inducted in 2040 while the Ching have finished catching up to Uncle Sam and are now equal-equal shoulder to shoulder working on next gen fighter jets.

Another 10 years and you'll find the Ching exceeding the Americans in even being "World's First" in military technology

We will still be here with grey in our hair, pulling out our hair over US engine delays, "kaveri kab ready hoga?" and whatever new MRFA type (((impoort tender))) they shit out.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

It is a challenge for us because the AMCA will be inducted in 2040 while the Ching have finished catching up to Uncle Sam and are now equal-equal shoulder to shoulder working on next gen fighter jets.

Another 10 years and you'll find the Ching exceeding the Americans in even being "World's First" in military technology

We will still be here with grey in our hair, pulling out our hair over US engine delays, "kaveri kab ready hoga?" and whatever new MRFA type (((impoort tender))) they shit out.

Bhai, this is the predictable consequence of broad long term vision that goes beyond the scope of just defence industry and such.
China CHOSE nearly 40 years ago to be the army ant of humanity : build shit. All kinds of shit. They basically took the 'industrious' mod in a civ game and exploited it to the max.
When you become the epicenter of 'making things' , you eventually become expert in some fields you chose to focus on/capable of focussing on, as a general knock on effect of being the world's centre of making things.

We never, as a civilization, chose to become the epicenter of making things as a goal, we chose a varied approach of 'make a few things well, like medicine, but still chem sector inputs will be lacking coz we are not vidhaataa of make ALL things chem related too like Cheen, but also focus on services output like IT sector/consulting etc'.

Since the last 500 years, Indian civilization has never realized as a mass, that to be first world and powerful, we have to be industrious as a civ and if it means habitat destruction/choking in pollution for a century, so be it.
We have always relied on 'marham patti' for things we need to succeed as a civ and the biggest reason the Marathas got whacked by the Anglos is because the Marathas did not build their own cannons and instead relied on highly fancy french imported cannons - which once they lost in certain engagements, they couldnt replace coz Anglo controlled the sea and french wernt gonna pick a naval war with englistan to supply brown dude cannons.
we as a SOCIETY have not learnt the lesson from that maratha wars - that we couldve kept anglo out of India/contained situation if Marathas could build their own freaking weapons and not buy phoren maal, coz no matter what, in midst of battle, phoren maal is tough to replace.
Chinese have learnt this lesson exceedingly well from the destruction of their Beyang fleet and armies of the late 1800s/early 1900s, where on 'paper' they actually had excellent equipment (with zero skill/experience users) that they imported but once lost, it was game over and back to Chinese peasant mob vs euro/japanese military powwa.

Yes, China got a leg up in this regard by being boosted by Unkil stupidly to become the vidhaataa of industry on the planet. but credit is where credit is due too: The chinese people have also prioritized 'we make shit' as a pathway to societal success.
And its paying off in fields of military - which is ultimately the most exclusive sector of 'we make shit' in the world.

 

[Ayan Barat]

What does this metaphor "catfish" mean here?

Shelling money thinking you've an accurate reasoning to do so given the value you'd be getting...but then realising the values are suboptimal and you've overpaid.

What do Russians have to say like what RCS are they quoting?

Even if we ignore everything from shape, angle, surface finish then also the air intake itself of J-20/35 vastly surpasses that of Su-57. (Even with those janky grids)

In BVR, PL-15 Vs R-77M may have equal opportunity

R-77s were an excellent missile when they're introduced in 1995 but then they kind of became stagnant. We've first hand experience of feeling the shortcomings of R-77, otherwise which country develops a BVR-AAM (Astra) before a WVR-AAM? Read about its problems in IAF service
As for PL-15, they've a range more than 200km. Because they use dual pulse motor and Astra Mk-2, another dual pulse motor rocket already achieves 150km with smaller diameter motor than PL-15.

Su-57 has side radar & L-band radar

A 30-15cm band radar would give you a vague idea of where a bogie might be but nothing more than than. For proper fire control you needed finer bands

In WVR, Su-57's DIRCM woud give advantage & in gunfight the Su-57 with its TVC & Levcons would kill J-20 most of the times or every time.

In five days we'd be in 2025, no one's going to use WVR with their manned fighter anymore. It's foolish to even think about it when countries are working on AIM-174 type 400km ranged BVR-AAMs.

I'm sharing a brief table i made for thread (Global 6th Generation Fighter Aircraft Projects)

None of the parameters you mentioned are "generational gap defining" parameter that can't be replicated in previous generation fighters.
In prior posts I've explained in detail the problems with defining 6th gen fighters.

Private firms are coming up, but they should be given sub-systems only, not complete project. They have own challenges of profit, secrecy, security, corruption, etc.

Weird license raaj era mindset statment, especially when sh*t has already hit the fan and we want maximum contribution from our MIC+ to get whatever necessary.