Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[vampyrbladez]

I feel that the IAF should look to the following to boost squadron numbers and retain it's technological edge:

• Induct more Su 30 MKIs :

With a 62.6% level of indigenization for the current Su 30 MKIs and a targeted 78% post upgrades, the MKIs can readily backfill any squadron deficiencies and provide a massive increase in force levels.

HAL feels confident enough to provide upgrades to the AL 31F and targets an increase of indigenization to 63% although Russia is against the same and may withdraw warranty support for these modified engines.

Super Sukhoi upgrades such as the new Virupaksha radar (2000+ TR GaN AESA), EW, cockpit, HMDS, SPJ, uprated engines (service life) will ensure that these fighter jets will pack a punch during a two front war.

India has recently signed on for 12 more Su 30 MKIs and 240 AL 31F engines. This number must be increased substantially moving forward.

• Work with GE to expedite GE F414 deal for licensed production :

The US government under Trump will extract it's pound of flesh (Apache, MQ 9, Stryker, P 8I, etc) to allow this through but they wont' deny the same to ensure regional counterbalancing v/s China.

Indigenous production of GE F414 (98 KN) would ensure less supply bottlenecks for the Tejas MK 2 and AMCA program. A 5th generation engine development plan would take at least 10 years to execute with either UK/France nd 5-8 years with massive concessions with US and Russia if signed in 2025.

Given the price considerations, an uprated F414 ( F414 Enhanced Engine) with 110 KN thrust may be used for the AMCA after the first 2-3 squadrons. A Tejas MK2A variant with these engines is also possible.

• Increase funding and proceed with rapid flight testing of Kaveri engine :

As per the recent news reports, the 'Dry Thrust' variant of the Kaveri engine has shown a thrust of ~52KN. This 'Dry Thrust' variant is produced by Godrej.

There is news that a 29 KN 'Afterburner Thrust' variant of the Kaveri engine is under development/ fabrication with BrahMos aerospace.

Increased funding and rapid trials and flight testing will allow the ~80 KN thrust variant to be ready by 2030 for use with the 97 Tejas MK1A to be produced by HAL. This will allow for less reliance on US for the GE F404 engine, an older design that the US isn't much focused on at the moment.

• Expedite the production process for the Tejas MK1A :

Work with the US and pressurize them to expedite GE F404 engine production. Reportedly the GE line in Massachusetts, IL has been restarted and it is expected that from March 2025 onwards, the deliveries of the same should resume.

As an interim measure, older GE F404 102/103 engines will be used as substitutes for delivery to IAF and then at MROs the engine swap to the GE F404 IN20 will take place as available.

• Prototyping of AMCA and Tejas MK2

Work to rollout and fly the AMCA and Tejas MK2 prototypes as quickly as possible. Tejas MK2 rollout is expected in October 2025 and FF in 2026. AMCA rollout is expected in 2026 and FF in 2027-28.

The Tejas MK2 IOC variant should be ready by 2029 and AMCA IOC variant should be ready by 2033. Induction of the Tejas MK2 by 2030 to complement and gradually replace the 40 year old Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 without reducing squadron numbers is a targeted possibility.

The AMCA would join the IAF in 2034 and then by late 2030s would rapidly plug the 'high end' gap in IAF's force spectrum.

• Bargain with US and Russia for 5th generation fighter aircraft as a stopgap

Poor planning and execution of the AMCA project by by HAL and IAF has resulted in China flying 6th generation fighter-bombers before the first flight of AMCA.

Russia has offered the Su 57 multiple times however concerns with the stealth capabilities (RCS of a clean F/A-18E/F = 0.1 m^2) and manufacturing bottlenecks faced by Sukhoi to meet the RuAF's domestic requirement forecloses this option.

The Su 57 is still testing stealthy 2D TVC vanes (F 22 has been in service with the same for 20+ years) and HMDs which means that it is at best in IOC configuration.

That leaves the F 35 for consideration and the US under Trump may offer the same to India like it did in 2018. A limited number of aircraft 36-40 could provide a fig leaf of power balance against China and Pakistan and allow time for the AMCA to be fielded in significant numbers with the IAF.

• Join a EU based (6th Generation) Developmental Programme

The US was previously the only nation to have test flown a 6th generation fighter under the NGAD program and with China showcasing 2 designs recently, the new G2 race for stealth supremacy has kicked off.

That leaves the other G7+1 powers to start independent development of a 6th generation fighter program. In a case of history repeating itself, Italy-UK-Japan have joined forces under the GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme), similar to the Eurofighter project and France-Germany-Spain under the FCAS (Future Combat Air System), similar to the Rafale.

India being a signatory to either grouping would give us a huge advantage by the late 2030s and accelerate our aviation industry by decades. Conversely AMCA MK2 might be an incremental upgrade due to split funding priorities and a separate engine development deal with France would be unlikely.

However India must decide quickly as other suitors like South Korea, UAE and Saudi Arabia are waiting in line. An opportunity like this never knocks twice.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

I feel that the IAF should look to the following to boost squadron numbers and retain it's technological edge:

• Induct more Su 30 MKIs :

With a 62.6% level of indigenization for the current Su 30 MKIs and a targeted 78% post upgrades, the MKIs can readily backfill any squadron deficiencies and provide a massive increase in force levels.

HAL feels confident enough to provide upgrades to the AL 31F and targets an increase of indigenization to 63% although Russia is against the same and may withdraw warranty support for these modified engines.

Super Sukhoi upgrades such as the new Virupaksha radar (2000+ TR GaN AESA), EW, cockpit, HMDS, SPJ, uprated engines (service life) will ensure that these fighter jets will pack a punch during a two front war.

India has recently signed on for 12 more Su 30 MKIs and 240 AL 31F engines. This number must be increased substantially moving forward.

View attachment 19725

• Work with GE to expedite GE F414 deal for licensed production :

The US government under Trump will extract it's pound of flesh (Apache, MQ 9, Stryker, P 8I, etc) to allow this through but they wont' deny the same to ensure regional counterbalancing v/s China.

Indigenous production of GE F414 (98 KN) would ensure less supply bottlenecks for the Tejas MK 2 and AMCA program. A 5th generation engine development plan would take at least 10 years to execute with either UK/France nd 5-8 years with massive concessions with US and Russia if signed in 2025.

Given the price considerations, an uprated F414 ( F414 Enhanced Engine) with 110 KN thrust may be used for the AMCA after the first 2-3 squadrons. A Tejas MK2A variant with these engines is also possible.

• Increase funding and proceed with rapid flight testing of Kaveri engine :

As per the recent news reports, the 'Dry Thrust' variant of the Kaveri engine has shown a thrust of ~52KN. This 'Dry Thrust' variant is produced by Godrej.

There is news that a 29 KN 'Afterburner Thrust' variant of the Kaveri engine is under development/ fabrication with BrahMos aerospace.

Increased funding and rapid trials and flight testing will allow the ~80 KN thrust variant to be ready by 2030 for use with the 97 Tejas MK1A to be produced by HAL. This will allow for less reliance on US for the GE F404 engine, an older design that the US isn't much focused on at the moment.

• Expedite the production process for the Tejas MK1A :

Work with the US and pressurize them to expedite GE F404 engine production. Reportedly the GE line in Massachusetts, IL has been restarted and it is expected that from March 2025 onwards, the deliveries of the same should resume.

As an interim measure, older GE F404 102/103 engines will be used as substitutes for delivery to IAF and then at MROs the engine swap to the GE F404 IN20 will take place as available.

• Prototyping of AMCA and Tejas MK2

Work to rollout and fly the AMCA and Tejas MK2 prototypes as quickly as possible. Tejas MK2 rollout is expected in October 2025 and FF in 2026. AMCA rollout is expected in 2026 and FF in 2027-28.

The Tejas MK2 IOC variant should be ready by 2029 and AMCA IOC variant should be ready by 2033. Induction of the Tejas MK2 by 2030 to complement and gradually replace the 40 year old Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 without reducing squadron numbers is a targeted possibility.

The AMCA would join the IAF in 2034 and then by late 2030s would rapidly plug the 'high end' gap in IAF's force spectrum.

• Bargain with US and Russia for 5th generation fighter aircraft as a stopgap

Poor planning and execution of the AMCA project by by HAL and IAF has resulted in China flying 6th generation fighter-bombers before the first flight of AMCA.

Russia has offered the Su 57 multiple times however concerns with the stealth capabilities (RCS of a clean F/A-18E/F = 0.1 m^2) and manufacturing bottlenecks faced by Sukhoi to meet the RuAF's domestic requirement forecloses this option.

The Su 57 is still testing stealthy 2D TVC vanes (F 22 has been in service with the same for 20+ years) and HMDs which means that it is at best in IOC configuration.

That leaves the F 35 for consideration and the US under Trump may offer the same to India like it did in 2018. A limited number of aircraft 36-40 could provide a fig leaf of power balance against China and Pakistan and allow time for the AMCA to be fielded in significant numbers with the IAF.

• Join a EU based (6th Generation) Developmental Programme

The US was previously the only nation to have test flown a 6th generation fighter under the NGAD program and with China showcasing 2 designs recently, the new G2 race for stealth supremacy has kicked off.

That leaves the other G7+1 powers to start independent development of a 6th generation fighter program. In a case of history repeating itself, Italy-UK-Japan have joined forces under the GCAP (Global Combat Air Programme), similar to the Eurofighter project and France-Germany-Spain under the FCAS (Future Combat Air System), similar to the Rafale.

India being a signatory to either grouping would give us a huge advantage by the late 2030s and accelerate our aviation industry by decades. Conversely AMCA MK2 might be an incremental upgrade due to split funding priorities and a separate engine development deal with France would be unlikely.

However India must decide quickly as other suitors like South Korea, UAE and Saudi Arabia are waiting in line. An opportunity like this never knocks twice.

What was the point of spending 20 years for MRCA if we are still in the same position????

 

[narasimh]

Even seasoned defense journalists are hitting the panic button.


View: https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1872284173551251666

I know people are still in the 2nd/3rd stage of grief but if we do the imports what he says to do, we will either become a de facto US lackey like Japan or SK and can say goodbye to autonomy... OR we will face the same situation after 20 yrs.... We have to endure this and do ZERO imports come what may.. focus all that fund towards indigenous programs only.. We often disregard Nuclear factor in our calculations... The nuclear policy has to be modified to achieve the deterrence we need for now and power through with indigenous efforts instead of wasting billions on stop gap imports.

 

[Ayan Barat]

I feel that the IAF should look to the following to boost squadron numbers and retain it's technological edge:

Here's my 2 cent

• First and foremost, no need to panic; China isn't going to attack anytime soon. History has been witness to it, whenever we panic we start wasting money. Ordering Victrix Scorpio, AK-203 instead of TAR, we were all set to order Sprut-SD.

• Engines; doesn't matter China is flying 6th gen or 7th...our priority is just engines. Aircrafts are built around an engine, as soon as it's there everything else just falls into their places. So do whatever is necessary, buy EJ200/M88 IPR, hire their scientist for consultancy but get a PROPER Kaveri as soon as possible.
They keyword here is proper, full fledged 100kN engine; can't afford the usual dry, wet, Mk-1, Mk-1A shenanigans anymore. Sh*t has already hit the fan.

• Work on AMCA without engines; not a big deal, in WW2 USA was assembling bombers without engines as there were issues with engines, but they didn't waste time waiting for engines to come. No need to proceed with the existing design of AMCA, no point in getting an assembly line that'll produce already obsolete fighters. Redesign it as soon as possible, if nothing else then just increase the magazine depth. Assembly jigs are yet to be made, it's the only window we've for modification. Once those are made you can't change the design.
The threat now requires an AHCA, AMCA with 4 BVR-AAMs won't cut through.

• Force IAF and IN to ORCA , no need to waste money and time in Mk-1, Mk-1A, Mk-2, MMRCA...ORCA is a good design can be used by IAF without even a proper air-force version. Fast track is as soon as possible, get another production line. 6th gen doesn't mean 4th gen has become obsolete, from China to USA everyone has plans to induct a new 4th gen fighter to boost squadron number. We'll too need something to replace the mess of MiGs, Jags, Mirages.

• AWACS fleet, still not interested? Yesterday only I mentioned how easy it is to make one and we're still doing a pinch of Netra, some Phalcon, few Airbus...select any plane, slap a radar and order atleast two squadrons of it. This might be the biggest defence we can create for an attacking PLA group.

• And as you said, try joining some international 6th gen program. Accept the fact that they're ahead of us in terms of technology and try collaborating with them. Even if we don't buy the actual plane we can get bits and pieces of different technologies to incorporate them into our next generations of planes.

• Stop Super Sukhoi, enough of toying with Super Sukhoi since I don't know how many years so now stop that circus. Simply ask private industry to present their bids on how much advanced they can make Su-30MkIs. They do ScrewdriverGiri, ToT, comes up with in-house research doesn't matter, it's up to them. You just ensure you get maximum bang for your buck.
Start slapping the biggest possible Uttam configuration on Sukhois as soon as possible, we already have SDFR based Astra-3 just need a radar that'll complement it and you'll have a formidable defence.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Here's my 2 cent

• First and foremost, no need to panic; China isn't going to attack anytime soon. History has been witness to it, whenever we panic we start wasting money. Ordering Victrix Scorpio, AK-203 instead of TAR, we were all set to order Sprut-SD.

• Engines; doesn't matter China is flying 6th gen or 7th...our priority is just engines. Aircrafts are built around an engine, as soon as it's there everything else just falls into their places. So do whatever is necessary, buy EJ200/M88 IPR, hire their scientist for consultancy but get a PROPER Kaveri as soon as possible.
They keyword here is proper, full fledged 100kN engine; can't afford the usual dry, wet, Mk-1, Mk-1A shenanigans anymore. Sh*t has already hit the fan.

• Work on AMCA without engines; not a big deal, in WW2 USA was assembling bombers without engines as there were issues with engines, but they didn't waste time waiting for engines to come. No need to proceed with the existing design of AMCA, no point in getting an assembly line that'll produce already obsolete fighters. Redesign it as soon as possible, if nothing else then just increase the magazine depth. Assembly jigs are yet to be made, it's the only window we've for modification. Once those are made you can't change the design.
The threat now requires an AHCA, AMCA with 4 BVR-AAMs won't cut through.

• Force IAF and IN to ORCA , no need to waste money and time in Mk-1, Mk-1A, Mk-2, MMRCA...ORCA is a good design can be used by IAF without even a proper air-force version. Fast track is as soon as possible, get another production line. 6th gen doesn't mean 4th gen has become obsolete, from China to USA everyone has plans to induct a new 4th gen fighter to boost squadron number. We'll too need something to replace the mess of MiGs, Jags, Mirages.

• AWACS fleet, still not interested? Yesterday only I mentioned how easy it is to make one and we're still doing a pinch of Netra, some Phalcon, few Airbus...select any plane, slap a radar and order atleast two squadrons of it. This might be the biggest defence we can create for an attacking PLA group.

• And as you said, try joining some international 6th gen program. Accept the fact that they're ahead of us in terms of technology and try collaborating with them. Even if we don't buy the actual plane we can get bits and pieces of different technologies to incorporate them into our next generations of planes.

• Stop Super Sukhoi, enough of toying with Super Sukhoi since I don't know how many years so now stop that circus. Simply ask private industry to present their bids on how much advanced they can make Su-30MkIs. They do ScrewdriverGiri, ToT, comes up with in-house research doesn't matter, it's up to them. You just ensure you get maximum bang for your buck.
Start slapping the biggest possible Uttam configuration on Sukhois as soon as possible, we already have SDFR based Astra-3 just need a radar that'll complement it and you'll have a formidable defence.

Sukhois are need for squadron numbers till Tejas MK2 comes online. Even USAF is buying F 15EX.

We are making it inhouse so it's the most logical method to stem falling squadron numbers. It also gives us leverage against blackmail by US.

The Su 30 MKI upgrade/ Super Sukhois/whatever is the next logical step to modernize these aircraft.

The purpose is for these to act as missile/bomb trucks for stealthy aircraft and drones and then pass on control of same via datalinks.

F 35A in small numbers (36-40) will buy some time for India because Pakistan can pull another Pulwama and IAF can't even do a Balakot because the otherside has superior fighter aircraft.

Otherwise as I have mentioned, joining the 6th generation EU consortium is now an operational necessity.

Engine development is now a critical operational necessity.

An AWACS based on the C 295 and old Air India planes needs to be expedited as well.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Sukhois are need for squadron numbers till Tejas MK2 comes online. Even USAF is buying F 15EX.

We are making it inhouse so it's the most logical method to stem falling squadron numbers. It also gives us leverage against blackmail by US.

The Su 30 MKI upgrade/ Super Sukhois/whatever is the next logical step to modernize these aircraft.

The purpose is for these to act as missile/bomb trucks for stealthy aircraft and drones and then pass on control of same via datalinks.

F 35A in small numbers (36-40) will buy some time for India because Pakistan can pull another Pulwama and IAF can't even do a Balakot because the otherside has superior fighter aircraft.

Otherwise as I have mentioned, joining the 6th generation EU consortium is now an operational necessity.

Engine development is now a critical operational necessity.

If F35 can be procured without much of strings attached then excellent, can be a stop gap till things fall into place otherwise this is what I'd say

• at least 10 squadrons of Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft; not AMCA
• around 15 squadrons of upgraded Su-30MkIs with Uttam, Astra Mk-III and above average EW system
• around 25 squadrons of ORCA to make up the bulk of your force with a cost effective yet decent fighter. This also includes cancelling orders of Mk-1A and stopping Mk-2
• at least 2 squadrons of Phalcon type large AWACS

Do at least this, cut the clutter as much as possible. Rest we'll deal with 6th adversary with time

 

[vampyrbladez]

If F35 can be procured without much of strings attached then excellent, can be a stop gap till things fall into place otherwise this is what I'd say

• at least 10 squadrons of Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft; not AMCA
• around 15 squadrons of upgraded Su-30MkIs with Uttam, Astra Mk-III and above average EW system
• around 25 squadrons of ORCA to make up the bulk of your force with a cost effective yet decent fighter. This also includes cancelling orders of Mk-1A and stopping Mk-2
• at least 2 squadrons of Phalcon type large AWACS

Do at least this, cut the clutter as much as possible. Rest we'll deal with 6th adversary with time

For the F 35 India will have to buy useless crap worth billions (Apache, Stryker, MQ 9).

Think of it as subscribing to OnlyFans and becoming a Prime Sub and then wining, dining as well as separately paying a high end prostitute for a night of fun.

Tejas MK1A is going to act as the interceptor for the IAF replacing Mig 21 and as a fighter bomber where AD is adequately suppressed/defeated for the Indian Army.

Tejas MK2 triumphs ORCA simply because you can have 2 Tejas MK2 for 1 ORCA to pump up the numbers.

AMCA with 2 engines is supposed to be the higher tier aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

AHCA is not even a pipe dream.

I can see more Netra and AWACS platform inductions for the IAF in the foreseeable future.

 

[Fatalis]

China launched:
02 6th Gen Fighters
01 New Gen AWACS
Type 076 LHA


Meanwhile Indian MoD (Defence Secretary) launched:

Post from Bharat Shakti

Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh launched the Rashtraparv website & app on Good Governance Day.

youtube.com

 

[mist_consecutive]

Any more China related posts in this thread will be deleted and user handed warning.

Use Chinese Air Force Thread or other China related threads for dorito discussion.

 

[Nutcracker]

Tejas MK2 triumphs ORCA simply because you can have 2 Tejas MK2 for 1 ORCA to pump up the numbers.

AMCA with 2 engines is supposed to be the higher tier aircraft for the Indian Air Force.

AHCA is not even a pipe dream.

I can see more Netra and AWACS platform inductions for the IAF in the foreseeable future.

ORCA has to be shoved down to IAF.
It will have better T/W ratio than Mig29UPG , essential for hilly northern sector, And if we ever had to launch offensive over Tibbetan plateau..
Additionally its operational cost will also be half of Su30MKI, with very capable payload.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Even seasoned defense journalists are hitting the panic button.


View: https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1872284173551251666

Vishnu som always reminds us our Mothers, buy 5 kg of Potatoes, 5 kg of tomato, 5 kg of onions. Guy just think buying fighter jets is like buying veggies.

Russians will rip us out for SU-57 like they did for AK-203 when we had the Trichy Assault rifle which is an Arsenal M1 clone.

They already ripped us with INS Vikramadithya for which we are doing multiple refits to make him work. Already shafted an tender when we tried to buy K-30 Biho for SPAD-GMS asset.

Now US is another ball park. They will never throw us the F35 bone. Even Predator drone deal took sweet time to complete. Also depends on political establishment they have. Democrats were pain to deal with while Trump will be Trump.

As esteemed members we need to develop that damn Kaveri engine with greater thrust output. Need to develop weapon systems with existing tech which is present in isolated fashion. We can build the K30 Biho when we have the WHAP base, Shilka gun, Radar, VSHORADS. Combine and build an abomination.

Rather gloating over muh imports.

 

[shade2]

ORCA has to be shoved down to IAF.
It will have better T/W ratio than Mig29UPG , essential for hilly northern sector, And if we ever had to launch offensive over Tibbetan plateau..
Nonetheless its operational cost will also be half of Su30MKI, with very capable payload.

They are doing their best to not induct Deshi Mirage, you think they will allow Deshi Rafale?



This shove down jhumla doesn't work else govt would have done it by now, Air Marshlols have to learn the costly lesson of defeat at an industrialized war, only then will they change, because the stain of defeat cannot be explained away by "EBIL PHASIST MUDI DIDN'T LET US IMPOORT PHOREN WUNDERWAFFE!"

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfoaqByS9-I


It is LIVE so timestamp not available. But just when the lady in red dress in background crosses... Did he call AMCA as Advanced MULTI-COLOR combat Aircraft.
If yes then
If my TV speakers or ears malfunctioned then i'm sorry

 

[Patriots]

View: https://x.com/72HoorSewa/status/1872283221947506765

 

[Suryavanshi]

It's day of the rope for DFB and all associated defence enthusiasts.

Will ask the members to maintain decorum and keep a civil tone towards Generals otherwise you know who will get angry.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

No need to proceed with the existing design of AMCA, no point in getting an assembly line that'll produce already obsolete fighters. Redesign it as soon as possible, if nothing else then just increase the magazine depth. Assembly jigs are yet to be made, it's the only window we've for modification. Once those are made you can't change the design.
The threat now requires an AHCA, AMCA with 4 BVR-AAMs won't cut through.

Something that isn't talked about enough. The AMCA is already outgunned as it is. We need a bigger jet with more internal space (at least 6 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs). Something else I always disliked was the IRST sticking out like a sore thumb. The Mk1 AMCA design can no longer be justified in 2030+ scenarios. Reverse engineer and improve the AL-31 with metallurgical breakthroughs made by the Kaveri program. Squeeze out at least 160kn per engine and stick a pair on a bigger AHCA. And letting it fly without a comprehensive EOTS assembly is ludicrous. China has been flashing their EOTS from the J-20 for 10 years now. The AMCA is simply not a competitive design anymore.

 

[Gurmeet]

The way Indian Defense twitter behaved yesterday was like surrendering itself before the first bullet lol. Yes we could have invested more in this 10 years but look at the research output from DRDO in these 10 years AST,Missiles,Long range Radars,built our first fighter plane before we would get these this news in years. We have just started investing in our R&D as long our GDP increase we will invest more.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

The way Indian Defense twitter behaved yesterday was like surrendering itself before the first bullet lol. Yes we could have invested more in this 10 years but look at the research output from DRDO in these 10 years AST,Missiles,Long range Radars,built our first fighter plane before we would get these this news in years. We have just started investing in our R&D as long our GDP increase we will invest more.

Asymmetrically you can put up deterrence just like how China itself put deterrence via Rocket Force against USA Or how the Soviets defended their Borders via huge Scuds Arsenal. But last time I saw Pralay, Shaurya, Nirbhay numbers doesn't exceed 100 in total where as we need a minimum of 10,000. Every competent Military facing Superior Enemy did this- China, North Korea, Russia, Soviet Union, Iran. It's Basic Common Sense.

There is no such thing as "Wartime Production" but only "Stockpiles". Enemy's targets on Day-1 would be Ammunition Factories. You don't even have to knock out FALs, just knock out some Fuze factory and your entire Production is screwed. Idiots cite US WW2/ Ukraine War examples where Wartime production is going on. But entire India from Border of China puny 3500-km Combat Radius and Range.

Genrols gave like 10 Missiles as if they are buying a Samosa and absolutely living in La La Land. They think enemy will allow us make weapons in wartime and any conflict would be restricted to border skirmishes only.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Bhai, this is the predictable consequence of broad long term vision that goes beyond the scope of just defence industry and such.
China CHOSE nearly 40 years ago to be the army ant of humanity : build shit. All kinds of shit. They basically took the 'industrious' mod in a civ game and exploited it to the max.
When you become the epicenter of 'making things' , you eventually become expert in some fields you chose to focus on/capable of focussing on, as a general knock on effect of being the world's centre of making things.

We never, as a civilization, chose to become the epicenter of making things as a goal, we chose a varied approach of 'make a few things well, like medicine, but still chem sector inputs will be lacking coz we are not vidhaataa of make ALL things chem related too like Cheen, but also focus on services output like IT sector/consulting etc'.

Since the last 500 years, Indian civilization has never realized as a mass, that to be first world and powerful, we have to be industrious as a civ and if it means habitat destruction/choking in pollution for a century, so be it.
We have always relied on 'marham patti' for things we need to succeed as a civ and the biggest reason the Marathas got whacked by the Anglos is because the Marathas did not build their own cannons and instead relied on highly fancy french imported cannons - which once they lost in certain engagements, they couldnt replace coz Anglo controlled the sea and french wernt gonna pick a naval war with englistan to supply brown dude cannons.
we as a SOCIETY have not learnt the lesson from that maratha wars - that we couldve kept anglo out of India/contained situation if Marathas could build their own freaking weapons and not buy phoren maal, coz no matter what, in midst of battle, phoren maal is tough to replace.
Chinese have learnt this lesson exceedingly well from the destruction of their Beyang fleet and armies of the late 1800s/early 1900s, where on 'paper' they actually had excellent equipment (with zero skill/experience users) that they imported but once lost, it was game over and back to Chinese peasant mob vs euro/japanese military powwa.

Yes, China got a leg up in this regard by being boosted by Unkil stupidly to become the vidhaataa of industry on the planet. but credit is where credit is due too: The chinese people have also prioritized 'we make shit' as a pathway to societal success.
And its paying off in fields of military - which is ultimately the most exclusive sector of 'we make shit' in the world.

Well for some country that worshipped Gods whose part and parcel are Weapons somehow Peaceful Kool-Aid taken too far had induced degeneracy. We have Epics, Scriptures, Temples and Culture where worshipping Weapons are inherent. Indian Steel was exported and finest for millenia. India was making Ships larger than Europoors and selling to them.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Something that isn't talked about enough. The AMCA is already outgunned as it is. We need a bigger jet with more internal space (at least 6 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs). Something else I always disliked was the IRST sticking out like a sore thumb. The Mk1 AMCA design can no longer be justified in 2030+ scenarios. Reverse engineer and improve the AL-31 with metallurgical breakthroughs made by the Kaveri program. Squeeze out at least 160kn per engine and stick a pair on a bigger AHCA. And letting it fly without a comprehensive EOTS assembly is ludicrous. China has been flashing their EOTS from the J-20 for 10 years now. The AMCA is simply not a competitive design anymore.

There are numerous problems with American MIC ranging from heavily bloated structure to lobbying...but one thing that you'd never find is underestimating the enemy. They overestimate enemy's capabilities whenever something crosses a certain threshold and then they scramble their a**es to over-compensate.

MiG-25 is the classic example; guessed its capabilities, made F-15 to counter those, MiG-25 turned out be grossly overestimated and now USAF is left with one of finest air dominance fighter.
If we look at modern example then NGSW. Again estimated that adversaries would be fielding longer ranged firearms and sport BPJs, made something to counter that, both the assumptions turned out to be overestimated and now they're left with perhaps the most advanced optics-caliber combination ever fielded.

It's not like China beat US to a 6th gen fighter, USAF has allegedly already flown multiple airframes. But still when they saw yesterday's video they must have immediately went back to drawing board and maybe even now when I'm typing this message they're working on what they can add on NGAD to counter any future, not just current challenges from the adversary in an effort to maintain overmatch.

This is something that one would rarely find in our MIC.

• Kargil happened in 1999 and we realised the need for an attack helicopter that can effectively operate in Himalayas.
• Up until 2006 nothing concrete has happened but the requirement was still a helicopter based on 1999's requirement.
• First prototype flew in 2010 but still emphasized around one single 10 year old requirement.
• In 2024, when finally the orders where placed then also it was for a platform addressing single 25 years old requirement.

In 25 years no-one thought to just stop for a moment, take a breath and modify it in a way that it addresses challenges of atleast 2020. Just uprate the engines a bit, add a 30mm gun, increase hardpoints to 8 (it's fine it won't be able to carry missiles on all of them in the Himalayas but atleast have them in the first place so that we can use them for say plains), slap four AESA panels around to fuselage to get atleast some degree of Longbow performance. But no, we'll go though the whole process of developing and acquiring an already obsoleted platform. Then we'll issue RFP for a Mk-II.

I'm pretty sure this exact thing is going to happen with AMCA.