Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Charlie said:
Keep on getting new dates then, if you think anything will change in PSU it will not, now I not blaming the talent, most of the guys are very talented and will be swooped up by private industry but the culture in there is just not changing.

If you think TEJAS mk1 is just being delayed because of GE, then they are taking you for a ride, it’s one of the problems not the only problem.

Well of course all blame is not on PSU and there is user issues as well but you have to start from somewhere.

kickbacks are everywhere in some form or other you just need to equip Indian private industry enough to do that for generals to prefer them.

This is something no one will say openly but will end up happening
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It is better to ((( keep getting dates ))) rather than chop up and throw DRDO, HAL to suit-boot wolves, with that after the dhandhos have finished digesting and shitting out whatever they had, you will get absolutely nothing, atleast at the end of Tariq pe Tariq you will get an IOC Tejas or Prachand or Arjun or ATAGS even if Genrols don't place big order.

Private sector dhandhos cannot compete with phoren orgs in terms of bribes and favors, max is they will do screwdrivergiri like Tata is doing in an attempt to eat the crumbs that fall from Foreign Vendor masta's table

I don't blame the dhandhos, they have to see their profit, revenue and all, no point fighting with Genrols and Air Marshlols since they have no skin in the same and are better served by doing screwdriver giri of Impoorted platforms which get the profits

Ask Baba Kalyani, the old man has made like 6 different artillery systems including like 2 self propelled ones, but the only order he has got till now is for the screwdrivered version of South African MPV Mbombe 4 called Kalyani M4 in Import Army service.
 
Bleh said:

Committee Evaluating Fighter Jet Acquisition May Recommend Additional Rafale Orders – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org idrw.org
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Nutcracker said:
These paper pushing leeches present in MOD and upper Jurnail echelon need to face the firing squad right now.
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>In 2016, 36 Rafales onleee
>In the near future 26 Rafales onlee
>And now as per IDRW 36 Rafales onlee

Because if you sign a deal for 100+ Rafale at once, conveniently an Italian mutt and all his alliance mongrels will start barking SCAM, howling and baring fangs.

This is a win-win for MoD babooze, Air Marshlols, Dassault & French govt but a loss for the nation

If you're doing IMPOOORT atleast get a large amount and some domestic ToT, atleast for spares and airframe manufacturing
 
Nutcracker said:
These paper pushing leeches present in MOD and upper Jurnail echelon need to face the firing squad right now.
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MRFA was also Plan B for in case the LCA Mk-2 program failed or took a long time or was sub optimal. Once the Mk-2 won the confidence of the IAF , GoI perhaps thought the MRFA can be junked & 72 nos can do the trick for the time being. In case the need was felt 18-36 nos could be ordered later.

The IDRW article makes sense . Look at the time periods the last four ACMs served including the incumbent.

https://currentaffairs.adda247.com/list-of-air-chief-marshal-of-india/

Gen Rawat also passed away in Dec 21 though whether he could persuade then ACM Chaudhari remains doubtful. There was some public controversy then when Gen Rawat publicly suggested the IAF go in for piece meal procurement like they did the MKI.​

What's puzzling is why did the damn MoD & GoI not go in for the additional Rafales in 2020 itself once we started receiving deliveries of the first lot of the 2016 order particularly since we paid for 2 bases to be modified ?


It's a goddamned mess that's what it is. In any case the decision seems to have been made . These moves are just eyewash .
 
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Azaad said:
What's puzzling is why did the damn MoD & GoI not go in for the additional Rafales in 2020 itself once we started receiving deliveries of the first lot of the 2016 order particularly since we paid for 2 bases to be modified ?
It's a goddamned mess that's what it is. In any case the decision seems to have been made . These moves are just eyewash .
Click to expand...

RAFALE SCAM screeching + Wuhan Virus induced uncertainity if i were to hazard a guess.

If 36 more are being ordered now I hope it is clubbed with Navy order of 26 Rafale-Ms so we can get a better deal but then knowing our procurement....
 
One of the less discussed/known reasons behind acquisition of just 36 rafales initially... the then defence secretary in an interview said they had plans to procure upto 150 rafales in a phased manner... why phased manner? To avoid block obsolescence as happened in case of SU-30MKI where the last of the MKIs delivered by HAL in 2019 was on exact same specifications as those delivered in the mid 2000s. The last of the MKIs delivered were below "state of the art"... & now the entire fleet is in need of upgrade all at once.

This situation was to be avoided with phase wise induction of rafale with each successive lot being better than the previous.

But... Italian pappu came in between.
 
T
Charlie said:
Keep on getting new dates then, if you think anything will change in PSU it will not, now I not blaming the talent, most of the guys are very talented and will be swooped up by private industry but the culture in there is just not changing.

If you think TEJAS mk1 is just being delayed because of GE, then they are taking you for a ride, it’s one of the problems not the only problem.

Well of course all blame is not on PSU and there is user issues as well but you have to start from somewhere.

kickbacks are everywhere in some form or other you just need to equip Indian private industry enough to do that for generals to prefer them.

This is something no one will say openly but will end up happening
Click to expand...
Tejas MK1 has been delivered we are waiting for Tejas MK1A
 
iNorthernerOn9 said:
One of the less discussed/known reasons behind acquisition of just 36 rafales initially... the then defence secretary in an interview said they had plans to procure upto 150 rafales in a phased manner... why phased manner? To avoid block obsolescence as happened in case of SU-30MKI where the last of the MKIs delivered by HAL in 2019 was on exact same specifications as those delivered in the mid 2000s. The last of the MKIs delivered were below "state of the art"... & now the entire fleet is in need of upgrade all at once.

This situation was to be avoided with phase wise induction of rafale with each successive lot being better than the previous.

But... Italian pappu came in between.
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He came, he barked
The public slapped him in elections
The SC slapped his party and waqeels in court by throwing out their case

Gobijee still was petrified with fear for whatever reason inspite of having a 303 seat mandate not to mention the Chinese bioweapon being released in 2020.

Since then Emiratis flipped the bird at being rejected for F35 purchase by buying 80 Rafales, Indonesians are buying 40 Rafales and thanks to Putin's war assorted other countries also placed orders for Rafale, aside from French airforce orders
 
Ayan Barat said:
Buddy, I also know all the jargons of different tracking mode in a radar.

Infact you talked about burn through

And here I'd mentioned the same thing

Every single day we're improving the SWaP of systems. Every single day somewhere someone is getting closer in miniaturising something. Each day we're finding new ways to do the work of humans using machines.
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Same is for AWACS too; no matter how much you and I argue on its efficacy, throw jargon to prove our superiority in knowledge...it's just a matter time before we see more and UAV based systems appearing everywhere. It has already happened in other arenas, it'll happen in AWACS too.
Mark my words

It's unfortunate that we as a nation, as an air-force, as a MIC have failed to catch this train in time but this doesn't mean others are also lagging behind.
The writing's on the wall.
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Remember this post @DumbPilot

Just witnessed history being rewritten infront of our eyes by unmanned systems

View: https://x.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1873999695867240684?s=19
An unmanned naval surface vessel downing a manned aerial platforms for the very first time

This changes everything, for decades ASuW aircrafts have prowled the seas unchallenged but now they've a threat. It's also extremely concerning for us too as we'd be facing the ghost fleet of Chinese Navy armed with such USVs.
 
Ayan Barat said:
Buddy, I also know all the jargons of different tracking mode in a radar.

Infact you talked about burn through

And here I'd mentioned the same thing

Every single day we're improving the SWaP of systems. Every single day somewhere someone is getting closer in miniaturising something. Each day we're finding new ways to do the work of humans using machines.
View attachment 20014
View attachment 20015
View attachment 20016
View attachment 20017
Same is for AWACS too; no matter how much you and I argue on its efficacy, throw jargon to prove our superiority in knowledge...it's just a matter time before we see more and UAV based systems appearing everywhere. It has already happened in other arenas, it'll happen in AWACS too.
Mark my words

It's unfortunate that we as a nation, as an air-force, as a MIC have failed to catch this train in time but this doesn't mean others are also lagging behind.
The writing's on the wall.
Click to expand...

Yes...

...but
swarajyamag.com

After Hijacking Of Indian Army Drone Near Pakistan Border, Focus On Make-In-India Without Chinese Parts—Zuppa Offers Solution

swarajyamag.com
 
Ayan Barat said:
Remember this post @DumbPilot

Just witnessed history being rewritten infront of our eyes by unmanned systems

View: https://x.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1873999695867240684?s=19
An unmanned naval surface vessel downing a manned aerial platforms for the very first time

This changes everything, for decades ASuW aircrafts have prowled the seas unchallenged but now they've a threat. It's also extremely concerning for us too as we'd be facing the ghost fleet of Chinese Navy armed with such USVs.
Click to expand...


aight bet bruh lol

would be nice to see an actual practical AWACS drone if it ever gets into service
 
vampyrbladez said:
Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.
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The point of this whole argument is that HAL or DRDO would deliver AMCA by 2034. That assumption is completely wrong. If you are struggling to deliver a 4.5G Tejas Mk2 from 5 years ago, the most realistic assumption is that they would try to deliver it by 2040.
 
vampyrbladez said:
1. That is a UK Parliament report from January 2024. Test firing a missile vs certifying the same is different. Even Astra MK2 has been test fired from Su 30 MKI but isn't considered ready for operational use.

2. These are NOT HAL-ADA timelines but a sort of guesstimate based on their track record and delivery schedules/ guarantees of GE and LM.

3. Tejas MK2 is scheduled for a rollout late next year (October 2025) which is perfectly reasonable since project sanction was in September 2022 and prototypes take 36 months to build. First flight is in 2026.

IAF has commited to 100-120 Tejas MK2 (final numbers ~200) which will be need since Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 will reach retirement in mid 2030s.

The Tejas MK2 helps build the industrial pathway (GE F414 engines, MIDHANI titanium forgings, HAL Titanium 50000 ton press, etc) to ease the AMCA's production. It doesn't matter what China inducts since we are the ones playing catch up and not them and they are already nearing 6th generation platforms.

4. I really think this is too absurd to even entertain. IAF has issued a RFP to HAL for these 97 aircraft. The idea is to have 180-220 low end interceptors to replace Mig 21/Mig 23/Mig 27/Jaguar.

The plan was on hold due to the GE F404 engine delay which is now showing signs of getting resolved. The engine production line has restarted and by mid 2025 (March-May/June 2025) new GE F404 engines will start reaching IAF.

Even older GE F404 102/103 engines are available as 'reserve engines' by GE to deliver the Tejas MK1A to IAF and then swap out with new built GE F404 IN20 as available.

5. India is NOT a partner nation to the F 35 program. If your country's flag is not listed below then you are not a priority for deliveries.

images


However if Singapore and Czech Republic can get F 35s then India can atleast hope for vanilla F 35s but these won't arrive before 2030-2031.
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The report says that GE would not deliver the engine on time. This was a major risk factor that our defense planners and MOD babus failed to anticipate. Why are we planning to deliver a fighter jet without a firm commitment to deliver the engine, which is the most critical part? Why aren't we following up on key supplies at regular intervals? If we had done that, we would have anticipated the delay of the engine and would be in a better position. This all shows that this is some conspiracy. It shows how things are planned in HAL and DRDO. These babus will take whatever it wants to delay the supplies further, and they are filling their pockets from the foreign lobbies.
 
pramodkumar.ca said:
The point of this whole argument is that HAL or DRDO would deliver AMCA by 2034. That assumption is completely wrong. If you are struggling to deliver a 4.5G Tejas Mk2 from 5 years ago, the most realistic assumption is that they would try to deliver it by 2040.
Click to expand...
There were no construction activities taking place 5 years ago (i.e. 2019), the design configuration of the Tejas Mk2 itself was only frozen in 2019.
 

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shade2 said:
It is better to ((( keep getting dates ))) rather than chop up and throw DRDO, HAL to suit-boot wolves, with that after the dhandhos have finished digesting and shitting out whatever they had, you will get absolutely nothing, atleast at the end of Tariq pe Tariq you will get an IOC Tejas or Prachand or Arjun or ATAGS even if Genrols don't place big order.

Private sector dhandhos cannot compete with phoren orgs in terms of bribes and favors, max is they will do screwdrivergiri like Tata is doing in an attempt to eat the crumbs that fall from Foreign Vendor masta's table

I don't blame the dhandhos, they have to see their profit, revenue and all, no point fighting with Genrols and Air Marshlols since they have no skin in the same and are better served by doing screwdriver giri of Impoorted platforms which get the profits

Ask Baba Kalyani, the old man has made like 6 different artillery systems including like 2 self propelled ones, but the only order he has got till now is for the screwdrivered version of South African MPV Mbombe 4 called Kalyani M4 in Import Army service.
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Tata is a production agency like Hal let’s see how many they deliver before their deadline, I guess all c295 will be delivered on time And in the next gen transport requirement they will become system integrators and will have a design of their own.

That’s how private industry will grow on value chain.

Solar industry is another example where they finished the multi mode grenade contract much before the deadline and ofb still cannot deliver half of what they produced, even Bharat forge is another example what private can do compared to Awil or something the old OFB they cannot even deliver 155 gun till now. Has been 5 years almost now.

In Soviet Union there was competition between firms even though they were run by government, in India there is no production agency other then HAL it’s a monopoly, why would they even put effort when they gets orders anyways.

For the last 60 years if you feel this psu brought change in defence industry then you are living in different world, most of the achievements are done by private players and msme in last 10 years.

If you are happy with lch and TEJAS then all power to you but after putting so much money in, you get only that then it’s an issue.

Armed forces will take time but slowly they will shift to indigenous products and the share of private companies will grow in coming years. Once there is a production agency challenging HAL, that’s when their nightmare starts. Airforce is trying to do that trying to get MRCA and they don’t want HAL to be production agency. They want a competitor to HAL

Who know AMCA production order might go different production agency in future.

Private industry will find a way to survive even if they don’t get contracts from the armed forces like bharat forge, tonbo, solar but DPSU won’t they will keep leeching on government forcing the government to get them some orders.

Even Adani which is just doing TOT right now will come up with their own designs in future which the DPSU didn’t in last 50 years
 
The IAF need for 45 Squadrons

There is a need of a honest debate on Indian IAF need to have 45 squadrons. The debate should avoid all stakeholders who have been shouting about 45 squadrons.

The need for 45 squadrons was set in 1991 when the fighter jets of the era were much less capable compared to what airforces of the world are acquiring today. Also the armaments carried by the fighter jets today are much more capable compared to 1991 era weapons.

Moreover the world’s airforces including the most capable Israeli Airforce has reduced the number of fighters they operate.

There are other reasons which require that we rethink about 45 squadrons.

1. The air defence systems have become very capable hence the fighter jets have to stay as far as possible from air defence missiles.

2. The advent of stealth fighters make the air battle with non stealth fighter an impossible task.

Hence think thru it and go all out for stealth fighters than 4 or 4.5 edition fighter but much less in numbers.

Argument to and for 45 squadrons are invited in the new year.

Welcome 2025.
 
Minimum Squadron requirement as per perceived areas of responsibility in a multi front war... totally my imagination.

Myanmar(Surprise PLAAF ingress) + Bangladesh = 3 Squadron

NE-Tibet front from Sikkim to Arunachal = 6 Squadrons

Bihar to Himachal(Nepal-Tibet border) = 6 squadrons (PLAAF can make ingress through Nepal)

Ladakh-AksaiChin-Siachen-Pok(Area where the 2 prominent fronts converge) = 6 Squadrons

Punjab-Rajasthan-Delhi = 9 Squadrons (Delhi catering as backup for UKD front)

Gujarat-MH (Air defence & Maritime strike) = 6 squadrons

Andaman & Nicobar & rest of South India = 3 squadrons. (The naval fighter arm will bear the bigger responsibility here)

Minimum 39 squadrons of multirole combat aircraft.
 
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