Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

Private companies had issues with the SPV earlier, not sure what changed lately.
Bro you know what “media organisation” he is quoting IDRW&Defence.in :facepalm4:
 
Bro you know what “media organisation” he is quoting IDRW&Defence.in :facepalm4:
Most moronic website :D steals their info from open source yet has their website secured as if they are the only source available!
 
I had a question, did the Su30mki track chinese j20 on the LAC?
How would they fare against?
Also can the S400 track j20 too?
(Please don't consider the possibility of Luneberg lenses)
 
I had a question, did the Su30mki track chinese j20 on the LAC?
How would they fare against?
Also can the S400 track j20 too?
(Please don't consider the possibility of Luneberg lenses)

Haha...
Tracking J-20 was a Cope statement. Neither it's technically nor physically possible in high Himalay.

S-400 radar or any radar can not track below horizon. It will only work when target is near and radar mount on a high altitude or to force aircraft to raise its altitude. If you thinking, like you can sit idle and S-400 will do rest of job is also not true.

There is very limited role of stealth at LAC because you will always have mountains to hide. Once you out of mountain jets can be visible with naked eye. Even airforce have very limited role.
 
Even if it's signed NOW first MRFA jet won't enter service until 2029 atleast.
Not to mention how cost prohibitive this deal is.
What exactly we are supposed to do with mrfa.
French doesn't have capacity, eurofighter can be sanctioned by burgericaas uk is involved, rest are burgerican jets or jets with burgerican engines.

Only two options are available either beg from Russia assuming they even have capacity to deliver or buy beg or steal technology to create turbofan engine.
 
What exactly we are supposed to do with mrfa.
French doesn't have capacity, eurofighter can be sanctioned by burgericaas uk is involved, rest are burgerican jets or jets with burgerican engines.

Only two options are available either beg from Russia assuming they even have capacity to deliver or buy beg or steal technology to create turbofan engine.
They should have never partnered with ge,.instead France or Russia and accelerate kaveri by hiring Ukrainian or anyone else that has experience. But our memory is too bad and we drive blind in terms of foresight. Economy is too dependent on old colonial master countries. Hope to see at least drones in numbers of all kind learning from russo Ukraine conflict
 
Paki numbers are overestimated. All their F-16 are not Block 52. And much of their JF-17 blunder is not Block III, even lacks HMDS. Practically they have about 100-120 proper 4/4.5 gen aircraft, not 247.

Problem is China and their new airbases. And those retired RAF fighter pilots that were caught training the PLAAF, meaning PLAAF training, tactics and procedures might be at par with us.
 
Paki numbers are overestimated. All their F-16 are not Block 52. And much of their JF-17 blunder is not Block III, even lacks HMDS. Practically they have about 100-120 proper 4/4.5 gen aircraft, not 247.

Problem is China and their new airbases. And those retired RAF fighter pilots that were caught training the PLAAF, meaning PLAAF training, tactics and procedures might be at par with us.
The versions of the aircraft do not disqualify them from 4th gen classification.
Even the oldest version of f16 and jf17 are 4th gen aircraft.

Their newest versions are 4.5 gen
 
I had a question, did the Su30mki track chinese j20 on the LAC?
How would they fare against?
Also can the S400 track j20 too?
(Please don't consider the possibility of Luneberg lenses)
Any radar in this world be it the BARS N011M PESA on the Sukhoi Su-30MKI or the Phazotron Zaslon PESA on the MIG-31 can detect and track a stealth fighter such as the J-20. Stealth doesn't mean "invisibility to radar detection" and neither is stealth claimed to make any aircraft (employing stealth-technology) invisible to radars.

I have already written a detailed post on the topic of "Stealth technology". Please read this.
Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft.110/post-1622

Now coming to the topic of IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI detecting & tracking a stealth aircraft. If the IAF said that they detected and tracked a J-20, then they most certainly did, the word of the IAF is enough for me. Add to that, IAF's Su-30MKI has detected the J-20, not just once but on multiple occasions. But we need to discuss the various factors & scenarios that may have played out during the J-20's detection.

The most commonly/widely accepted theory is that the J-20 that was detected by the Sukhoi was carrying a Luneberg lense/ radar reflector. This is the most likely possibility and makes the most sense to me. The J-20 will carry luneberg lenses for the same reason the F-22 and F-35 would carry them, that is conceal their true RCS. Though I doubt that it's RCS is something that China can hide forever, I am certain that we have radars that can penetrate deep inside the Chinese mainland.

Now let's keep aside the the theory of "Luneberg lenses". In which other scenario could we have detected the J-20?
  • 1. The J-20 exposed a bad angle to the BARS PESA radar. The RCS of any aircraft differs from different angles and profiles. At some angles, even a stealth aircraft such as the J-20 can give a huge RCS return, comparable to those of fourth generation aircraft such as Su-30, Rafale, F-16, F-18 etc to name a few. For e.g, the frontal RCS of an F-22, F-35 or even an F-117 would not be the same as that of its rear profile, look up RCS spiking diagrams online.
  • The canards on the J-20 are definitely one source of higher RCS returns, especially those when they are moving during flight.
  • 2. The J-20 is just a big-fat-lie. It's just a big plane painted with black to give an illusion of stealth, it's RCS, and onboard sensors are equal to or worse than current fourth generation aircraft.
  • 3. The IAF was lying. Do you think that a renowned and well respected AF such as the IAF would lie? I think not.
Now how did the IAF conclude that the radar signature that was displayed on one of their radar was a J-20? It could have been anything, it could have been a J-10, J-11, J-16 or even Jadoo's spaceship, so it literally could have been anything. Now I will address this in point form.
  • You see, the IAF has a whole series of radars that track the movements of any aircraft that files in the region.
  • Any time a J-16, J-15, J-11, J-10, F-16 or any other jet flown by our enemies flies especially close to the border, the IAF radars track their each and every move and all that RCS data is stored in their RCS library, so the next time an F-16 or JF-17 comes towards us, we will know whether it was a JF-17 or F-16.
  • That day when the J-20 was detected, the IAF radar picked up something that didn't match anything recorded in the RCS library of that time, so it wasn't a J-16, J-10, F-16 or anything that we already have the RCS signatures of, so that is how the IAF concluded that it was a J-20.
As for China's J-20 stealth fighter and it's combat capabilities, all I will say is this.
  • It's a machine at the end of the day, and I will criticize any design where I should criticize it and appreciate it where I should appreciate it.
  • The topic of the J-20's capabilities is an ambiguous one, one side says the J-20 is not as capable as Chinese propaganda tout it to be, the other side says it's a very capable aircraft that can go toe to toe with the best Stealth Fighters (such as the F-22, F-35, Su-57 etc). It's upto you on which side's words you want to believe.
  • I do not think that the J-20 is as capable as the Chinese project it to be, but neither do I believe that it's some 3rd-rate junk, that shouldn't be taken seriously/should be taken lightly.
To know and assess the actual capabilities of any fighter, we all have to keep aside our biases and analyse it with an objective approach, the truth is somewhere in the middle. We may not reach the absolute truth but we should come closer to it rather than further away and closer to a lie.

Regards. Hope sense prevails.🙏🏻
 
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I had a question, did the Su30mki track chinese j20 on the LAC?
How would they fare against?
Also can the S400 track j20 too?
(Please don't consider the possibility of Luneberg lenses)
Sure they might have detected and tracked it. Merely detecting a stealth jet is no big deal with a radar at enough of a low frequency.

Now what we should really be asking is that if the su30mki could achieve a weapons grade lock.

They never mentioned this for a reason.....
 
Any radar in this world be it the BARS N011M PESA on the Sukhoi Su-30MKI or the Phazotron Zaslon PESA on the MIG-31 can detect and track a stealth fighter such as the J-20. Stealth doesn't mean "invisibility to radar detection" and neither is stealth claimed to make any aircraft (employing stealth-technology) invisible to radars.

I have already written a detailed post on the topic of "Stealth technology". Please read this.
Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft.110/post-1622

Now coming to the topic of IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI detecting & tracking a stealth aircraft. If the IAF said that they detected and tracked a J-20, then they most certainly did, the word of the IAF is enough for me. Add to that, IAF's Su-30MKI has detected the J-20, not just once but on multiple occasions. But we need to discuss the various factors & scenarios that may have played out during the J-20's detection.

The most commonly/widely accepted theory is that the J-20 that was detected by the Sukhoi was carrying a Luneberg lense/ radar reflector. This is the most likely possibility and makes the most sense to me. The J-20 will carry luneberg lenses for the same reason the F-22 and F-35 would carry them, that is conceal their true RCS. Though I doubt that it's RCS is something that China can hide forever, I am certain that we have radars that can penetrate deep inside the Chinese mainland.

Now let's keep aside the the theory of "Luneberg lenses". In which other scenario could we have detected the J-20?
  • 1. The J-20 exposed a bad angle to the BARS PESA radar. The RCS of any aircraft differs from different angles and profiles. At some angles, even a stealth aircraft such as the J-20 can give a huge RCS return, comparable to those of fourth generation aircraft such as Su-30, Rafale, F-16, F-18 etc to name a few. For e.g, the frontal RCS of an F-22, F-35 or even an F-117 would not be the same as that of its rear profile, look up RCS spiking diagrams online.
  • The canards on the J-20 are definitely one source of higher RCS returns, especially those when they are moving during flight.
  • 2. The J-20 is just a big-fat-lie. It's just a big plane painted with black to give an illusion of stealth, it's RCS, and onboard sensors are equal to or worse than current fourth generation aircraft.
  • 3. The IAF was lying. Do you think that a renowned and well respected AF such as the IAF would lie? I think not.
Now how did the IAF conclude that the radar signature that was displayed on one of their radar was a J-20? It could have been anything, it could have been a J-10, J-11, J-16 or even Jadoo's spaceship, so it literally could have been anything. Now I will address this in point form.
  • You see, the IAF has a whole series of radars that track the movements of any aircraft that files in the region.
  • Any time a J-16, J-15, J-11, J-10, F-16 or any other jet flown by our enemies flies especially close to the border, the IAF radars track their each and every move and all that RCS data is stored in their RCS library, so the next time an F-16 or JF-17 comes towards us, we will know whether it was a JF-17 or F-16.
  • That day when the J-20 was detected, the IAF radar picked up something that didn't match anything recorded in the RCS library of that time, so it wasn't a J-16, J-10, F-16 or anything that we already have the RCS signatures of, so that is how the IAF concluded that it was a J-20.
As for China's J-20 stealth fighter and it's combat capabilities, all I will say is this.
  • It's a machine at the end of the day, and I will criticize any design where I should criticize it and appreciate it where I should appreciate it.
  • The topic of the J-20's capabilities is an ambiguous one, one side says the J-20 is not as capable as Chinese propaganda tout it to be, the other side says it's a very capable aircraft that can go toe to toe with the best Stealth Fighters (such as the F-22, F-35, Su-57 etc). It's upto you on which side's words you want to believe.
  • I do not think that the J-20 is as capable as the Chinese project it to be, but neither do I believe that it's some 3rd-rate junk, that shouldn't be taken seriously/should be taken lightly.
To know and assess the actual capabilities of any fighter, we all have to keep aside our biases and analyse it with an objective approach, the truth is somewhere in the middle. We may not reach the absolute truth but we should come closer to it rather than further away and closer to a lie.

Regards. Hope sense prevails.🙏🏻
Wow well written, loved it
Also what do you think of the WS10 chinese engine.
Have they cracked it really or its just junk?
 
Sure they might have detected and tracked it. Merely detecting a stealth jet is no big deal with a radar at enough of a low frequency.

Now what we should really be asking is that if the su30mki could achieve a weapons grade lock.

They never mentioned this for a reason.....
Yes, I never thought of this:doh:
Besides what do you think of their pilot training, I heard they were hiring British and German retired pilots to up their game.
Any air encounters of theirs recently you know of?
 
Wow well written, loved it
Also what do you think of the WS10 chinese engine.
Have they cracked it really or its just junk?
Well if the chinese are to be believed, the latest iteration, WS-10C (142KN) is more powerful than the AL31FN3 (134KN). (Used on all flanker variants except Su30SM2 and Su35)
And similarly, its more powerful than the american F110-GE129 (132KN). (Used on the F15, F16 variants).

But its still far off the top tier american jet engines like F135 used on the F35 (190KN), or the F119 (152KN).
Though, its similar to the best russian engine AL41F1 (147KN).


However, their engine life span (MTBO), leaves much to be desired.

Now this is the most generous estimate for the chinese WS-10C : 3000 hours MTBO
(1500 hours claimed by Chinese sources for the WS-10H, naval variant of WS-10A which improved the lifespan from 800 to 1500 hours, and the WS-13 that jf17 uses is stated to have 2200 hours MTBO, but since thats a different class of engine altogether its not fair to use this as a reference, also I'm going to be generous and assume they have managed to increase the lifespan even further with the WS-10C)

And the lowest estimate for F110 GE129 i could find: 6000 hours MTBO (have seen claims upto 8000 hours)
And the latest russian engines AL31FN and AL41F, has upto 4000 hours MTBO.
 
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Said by PAF retired officer. Thoughts?
They were 100 years ahead since the days of Alam. They have been reduced to just 12-14 years now.
 


Said by PAF retired officer. Thoughts?
Presumably he means the IAF's fighters will be outclassed by FC-31 until AMCA turns up. Is he right to think that?

PS I am enquiring about aircraft, not about whether everything Indian is better than everything Chinese or Pakistani.
 

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