Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[shauryaman65]

Presumably he means the IAF's fighters will be outclassed by FC-31 until AMCA turns up. Is he right to think that?

Yea, generally 5th gen >>> 4th gen or even 4.5 gen.

 

[DumbPilot]

Problem is China and their new airbases. And those retired RAF fighter pilots that were caught training the PLAAF, meaning PLAAF training, tactics and procedures might be at par with us.

I don't think it will scale up that quickly. A change in tactics and overall how the force itself adapts to new changes on the battlefield also requires a cultural change - for example, there's a reason that even with all of their money and power, the Saudi air force is not considered to be very professional in different circles

And I think simply getting old RAF pilots into the fold isn't enough, they have to get operational experience too, which they don't have

 

[Spitfire IX]

I don't think it will scale up that quickly. A change in tactics and overall how the force itself adapts to new changes on the battlefield also requires a cultural change - for example, there's a reason that even with all of their money and power, the Saudi air force is not considered to be very professional in different circles

And I think simply getting old RAF pilots into the fold isn't enough, they have to get operational experience too, which they don't have

I think there are quite a few retired RAF pilots with operational experience in combat zones -Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. But all those operating from a position of air superiority or dominance.

 

[haldilal]

View: https://twitter.com/haldilal/status/1825792776958529738

 

[DumbPilot]

I think there are quite a few retired RAF pilots with operational experience in combat zones -Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. But all those operating from a position of air superiority or dominance.

You are right, but I assume that these retired foreign pilots only teach stuff to the Chinese elite - i.e something like the PLAAF TACDE, which is a pretty low coverage - all the stuff taught to the Chinese at their version of the TACDE will be diluted down when they transfer that all to their own squadrons.

What I meant with the culture aspect was that take for example the Muslims in the Middle East - Iraq invaded Iran, got a lot of land, and got kicked out. They got their operational experience, but they failed to learn any lessons from that due to the way that society and leadership works over there:

- highly centralized
- kiss ass of the next superior
- positions are decided on basis of political leanings rather than merit

With the way that the Chinese system works, I suspect similar fault lines within their own military as well - because the military must stay weak for the despot to reign supreme.

 

[DumbPilot]

You are right, but I assume that these retired foreign pilots only teach stuff to the Chinese elite - i.e something like the PLAAF TACDE, which is a pretty low coverage - all the stuff taught to the Chinese at their version of the TACDE will be diluted down when they transfer that all to their own squadrons.

What I meant with the culture aspect was that take for example the Muslims in the Middle East - Iraq invaded Iran, got a lot of land, and got kicked out. They got their operational experience, but they failed to learn any lessons from that due to the way that society and leadership works over there:

- highly centralized
- kiss ass of the next superior
- positions are decided on basis of political leanings rather than merit

With the way that the Chinese system works, I suspect similar fault lines within their own military as well - because the military must stay weak for the despot to reign supreme.

All of their problems stem from the fact that the Chinese have no experienced corps who can pass on knowledge to the next generation(there's nothing to teach!) because almost all of them got purged during Mao's takeover. The problem is the same for the Navy and the Army to a large extent, too.

So whatever tehey end up doing, it will take time to fully recover. Going by past examples(that of the Soviet Union), it takes atleast 15 to 20 years to fully recover.

The PLAAF officially established fighter training schools in 2020 when they began poaching Wstern instructors, so if everything happens at a good pace then they can probably get something done by the 2040s.

 

[Baseplate]

How different would Kargil war had been if we had a few AC130 gunships and decided to deploy them ?

 

[ezsasa]

How different would Kargil war had been if we had a few AC130 gunships and decided to deploy them ?

- Stinger range 5 km, M102 range 10 km
- paki deploy air assets to counter a slow moving aerial target
- India deploys air assets to counter paki air assets, escalation to full scale warfare

 

[Baseplate]

- Stinger range 5 km, M102 range 10 km
- paki deploy air assets to counter a slow moving aerial target
- India deploys air assets to counter paki air assets, escalation to full scale warfare

But what if the aircraft remained on our side of LOC . Pak would not engage them as if it did his whole cover will be blown off ?

 

[Fatalis]

#Future Projects:
• Under Procurement:
1. HAL HTT-40 = 70
2. Tejas Mk1A = 83
3. Sudarshan AA Guns = 244

•RFP:
1. Su-30MKI = 12
2. Tejas Mk-1A = 97
3. Prachand LCH = 66

•AoN:
1. Boeing 767 Mid Air-Refueller = 6
2. ISTAR = 3
3. Netra Mk-1A = 6
4. Airbus A-321 AEW&C Block 2 = 6
5. SCA Aircraft= 3

•RFI:
1. Medium Transport Aircraft= 40-80
2. HAL LUH = 61
3. MRCA 2.0 = 114

 

[ezsasa]

But what if the aircraft remained on our side of LOC . Pak would not engage them as if it did his whole cover will be blown off ?

our CAP no-fly zone along LOC and LAC is 10 km from the line, if this scenario is being viewed from 105 mm cannon's angle which has 10 km accurate fire range. there is very narrow margin left. if mirror deployment is in place, they are under no obligation to presume shells are landing in their territory. there is a reason AC130 does not fly in contested air space.

there are no demarcation lines when viewed from the sky.

any scenario involving pakis, always assume they are planning to play the victim card, reality never mattered to them. not much discussion on it these days, but up until a few years ago pakis were denying that PAF attacked first on our western border which officially started the 1971 war.

 

[Spitfire IX]

On the MTA, I would imagine that IAF has some idea of what capacity it requires. Is it useful to spend a lot of time looking at info about A400M if it is too big or too expensive or looking at C-130 if it is too small or looking at C-390 if landing distance is too long?

I read that whatever is eventually selected, HAL wanted to then offer its own design in competition. If that was allowed, how long would it take for that design to be completed and to then be evaluated against the MTA selected in the tender process? If there is no hurry and India can wait until the mid- 2030's for new MTA's, no problem.

 

[BON PLAN]

S-400 radar or any radar can not track below horizon.

Not really.
USA had OTH-B and ROTHR
Russia has Duga-3
Australia has Jindalee
France has Nostradamus

They all are able to see over the horizon. thousand kilometers... They seem specially potent against stealth aircraft (but lack of precision. More a long range alert radar).

 

[BON PLAN]

Even if it's signed NOW first MRFA jet won't enter service until 2029 atleast.
Not to mention how cost prohibitive this deal is.

3 years minimum.
with an order now, first bird possible in 2027, as with the Rafale GtoG deal.

 

[SlayingHell]

On the MTA, I would imagine that IAF has some idea of what capacity it requires. Is it useful to spend a lot of time looking at info about A400M if it is too big or too expensive or looking at C-130 if it is too small or looking at C-390 if landing distance is too long?

I read that whatever is eventually selected, HAL wanted to then offer its own design in competition. If that was allowed, how long would it take for that design to be completed and to then be evaluated against the MTA selected in the tender process? If there is no hurry and India can wait until the mid- 2030's for new MTA's, no problem.

IAF can look at the MTA in terms of this parameters. We can solve this based on Integer Optimization.
1. What type of Vehicles do we intend to transport?
2. What is size of Vehicles
3. What is the cost preference?
4. Geopolitical Preferences
5. Domestic Assembly line and localization of Components
6. Landing Distance
7. Turboprop or Turbofan Preference based on Landing Environments
8. Range
9. Already present ecosystem of any parts like C-390's IAE Turbofan.
HAL's own design division couldn't even get a basic jet trainer. How can they design a complex MTA? They would drag it for 10 to 15 years and then bring in consultants by paying exorbitant amounts. Later imported air force would reject it citing not being advanced enough.

 

[BON PLAN]

Any radar in this world be it the BARS N011M PESA on the Sukhoi Su-30MKI or the Phazotron Zaslon PESA on the MIG-31 can detect and track a stealth fighter such as the J-20. Stealth doesn't mean "invisibility to radar detection" and neither is stealth claimed to make any aircraft (employing stealth-technology) invisible to radars.

I have already written a detailed post on the topic of "Stealth technology". Please read this.
Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft.110/post-1622

Now coming to the topic of IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI detecting & tracking a stealth aircraft. If the IAF said that they detected and tracked a J-20, then they most certainly did, the word of the IAF is enough for me. Add to that, IAF's Su-30MKI has detected the J-20, not just once but on multiple occasions. But we need to discuss the various factors & scenarios that may have played out during the J-20's detection.

The most commonly/widely accepted theory is that the J-20 that was detected by the Sukhoi was carrying a Luneberg lense/ radar reflector. This is the most likely possibility and makes the most sense to me. The J-20 will carry luneberg lenses for the same reason the F-22 and F-35 would carry them, that is conceal their true RCS. Though I doubt that it's RCS is something that China can hide forever, I am certain that we have radars that can penetrate deep inside the Chinese mainland.

Now let's keep aside the the theory of "Luneberg lenses". In which other scenario could we have detected the J-20?

• 1. The J-20 exposed a bad angle to the BARS PESA radar. The RCS of any aircraft differs from different angles and profiles. At some angles, even a stealth aircraft such as the J-20 can give a huge RCS return, comparable to those of fourth generation aircraft such as Su-30, Rafale, F-16, F-18 etc to name a few. For e.g, the frontal RCS of an F-22, F-35 or even an F-117 would not be the same as that of its rear profile, look up RCS spiking diagrams online.
• The canards on the J-20 are definitely one source of higher RCS returns, especially those when they are moving during flight.
• 2. The J-20 is just a big-fat-lie. It's just a big plane painted with black to give an illusion of stealth, it's RCS, and onboard sensors are equal to or worse than current fourth generation aircraft.
• 3. The IAF was lying. Do you think that a renowned and well respected AF such as the IAF would lie? I think not.

Now how did the IAF conclude that the radar signature that was displayed on one of their radar was a J-20? It could have been anything, it could have been a J-10, J-11, J-16 or even Jadoo's spaceship, so it literally could have been anything. Now I will address this in point form.

• You see, the IAF has a whole series of radars that track the movements of any aircraft that files in the region.
• Any time a J-16, J-15, J-11, J-10, F-16 or any other jet flown by our enemies flies especially close to the border, the IAF radars track their each and every move and all that RCS data is stored in their RCS library, so the next time an F-16 or JF-17 comes towards us, we will know whether it was a JF-17 or F-16.
• That day when the J-20 was detected, the IAF radar picked up something that didn't match anything recorded in the RCS library of that time, so it wasn't a J-16, J-10, F-16 or anything that we already have the RCS signatures of, so that is how the IAF concluded that it was a J-20.

As for China's J-20 stealth fighter and it's combat capabilities, all I will say is this.

• It's a machine at the end of the day, and I will criticize any design where I should criticize it and appreciate it where I should appreciate it.
• The topic of the J-20's capabilities is an ambiguous one, one side says the J-20 is not as capable as Chinese propaganda tout it to be, the other side says it's a very capable aircraft that can go toe to toe with the best Stealth Fighters (such as the F-22, F-35, Su-57 etc). It's upto you on which side's words you want to believe.
• I do not think that the J-20 is as capable as the Chinese project it to be, but neither do I believe that it's some 3rd-rate junk, that shouldn't be taken seriously/should be taken lightly.

To know and assess the actual capabilities of any fighter, we all have to keep aside our biases and analyse it with an objective approach, the truth is somewhere in the middle. We may not reach the absolute truth but we should come closer to it rather than further away and closer to a lie.

Regards. Hope sense prevails.

An object is never totally stealthy.
Stealth technology only reduce the radar effective range in which it can be detected.

So there is for me some manners to found and track stealth aircraft :
1) A combo of low band radars on ground, may be multistatic ones, for a low precision detection AND a classical fighter radar to fine tune the position of the stealthy jet to track it (it is easier to try to fond something in a box of 10 x 10 kilometers than in the whole space ! )
2) same with a low band radar and IRST. A stealth aircraft is usually not stealth in IR band.

Note that all the new chinese destroyers are fitted with a low band radar.

 

[Fatalis]

Not sure if this has been shared before:

 

[VictorDelta4]

So a drop tank malfunction?

 

[Anants]

So a drop tank malfunction?
View attachment 7222

could be technical malfunction or even accidental release.

 

[jaijaganath]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1826544662280372571

Wtf they released rampage accidentally!