Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[ArjunMK1A]

View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1896566902698500242?t=2ZV-5-jnlE6K3mH4OteGUA&s=19


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1896568757532942838?t=UdV473ejCXI8aIaqSJ2J8A&s=19

Entire Tejas MK1A LRU is manufactured by Private companies. HAL is an lead integrator. Basically it does not change anything even if HAL is replaced as lead integrator. Since the LRU will come from same vendors. and now new company will do the assembly. HAL screwed up due to Engine fiasco. Otherwise it should have completed them in time.

Most point of concern will be the HAL lethargic response to Dhruv crashes and lack of transparency in fixing the problem. This is something needs to fixed up. Again this happens due to HAL being DPSU. Recent example like Boeing who ruined their reputation by doing serious quality lapse. So it applies to the same Private lead Integrator.

Frankly whoever's handling the PR in DRDO ought to be kicked first & then sacked. You just held the most high profile event in 2 years at Bangalore with AI 2025 & instead of exhibiting these wares there for foreign & Indian participants to show off our prowess , they go off to Hyderabad a few days after the grand event is over in what I bet must be a low key low publicised event over there .

There're literally no national media covering this important exhibition with defence aficionados being caught flat footed in the sense that nobody knew this was scheduled to be held in Hyderabad.

Don't get me wrong . The local Telugu channels may have surely covered it well & defence aficionados from Tlg & AP may have attended it apart from the students who surely must have had their curiosity kindled but the entire exhibition in my opinion proved to be counter productive in light of the fact that there was little to no publicity of this event.

It looks like an small amount event by DRDO. They just done in Hyderabad itself. RM as chief guest is expected. But the bigger picture. They showcase some really cutting edge missiles out of nowhere.

They become chads suddenly.

 

[Azaad]

Entire Tejas MK1A LRU is manufactured by Private companies. HAL is an lead integrator. Basically it does not change anything even if HAL is replaced as lead integrator. Since the LRU will come from same vendors. and now new company will do the assembly. HAL screwed up due to Engine fiasco. Otherwise it should have completed them in time.

Most point of concern will be the HAL lethargic response to Dhruv crashes and lack of transparency in fixing the problem. This is something needs to fixed up. Again this happens due to HAL being DPSU. Recent example like Boeing who ruined their reputation by doing serious quality lapse. So it applies to the same Private lead Integrator.

Precisely why this approach should've been followed when developing an alternative to HAL instead of the SPV floated for AMCA by MoD waiting for nearly 3 years before they got the GoI to sanction funds for the development of the AMCA.

There are talks of increasing the quantum of Mk-2 to some 300+ nos now from the original 108 nos. We can follow the same model if integration of 97 nos Mk-1a proves successful assuming it's handed over to a pvt player instead of pie in the sky schemes like choosing a Pvt Sector Player as lead integrator for as prestigious & sensitive a program as the AMCA with zero experience whatsoever in the aviation industry like they were previously pursuing.

It looks like an small amount event by DRDO. They just done in Hyderabad itself. RM as chief guest is expected. But the bigger picture. They showcase some really cutting edge missiles out of nowhere.

They become chads suddenly.

The issue was always the publicity around the event especially when they chose to exhibit their crown jewels that too in an extremely low profile event in Hyderabad instead of displaying them at AI -25.

They could've done so at Hyderabad too but with the right publicity. All they could've done was copied HAL in how the latter went about organising the AI-25.

I'd go one step further & ask why didn't they offer to co host AI-25 assuming such a thing was possible ( I personally don't think HAL would be inclined to co host AI ) . Think of the amount of free publicity they'd attract especially coverage from foreign participants with the HGV , BM-05 , Pralay , Agni -V , etc .

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1896765733226574264?t=B0GcPCgrLc8v0ClxIGlq4Q&s=19

The “key thrust areas” identified in the report range from progressively increasing the number of fighter squadrons, which is currently down to just 30 despite a sanctioned strength of 42.5, to induction of additional “force-enablers” like airborne early-warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and mid-air refuelers as well as a wide array of air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles

The report presented on Monday has detailed a “glide path” to increasing the number of fighter squadrons, which includes a foreign OEM (original equipment manufacturer) tying up with an Indian partner to set up a production line here.
While HAL’s three production lines for the light-weight Tejas will continue, this will be a parallel production line for a different medium-weight fighter,” another official said. This involves the long-pending project to manufacture 114 new 4.5-generation fighters, at an initial estimate of Rs 1.25 lakh crore, with foreign collaboration

Users :-
>SQUADRONES DECLINING SAAARS!!!!!
>NEED TO INDUCT 40 AC A YEAR TO REBUILD STRENGTH!

Baboos & GoI :-
>"Yes, let us play 5-6 years of trial-trial, chai-biscoot negotiation and tender-tender for 114 Imported fighter jets"

 

[Azaad]

View: https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1896765733226574264?t=B0GcPCgrLc8v0ClxIGlq4Q&s=19

The “key thrust areas” identified in the report range from progressively increasing the number of fighter squadrons, which is currently down to just 30 despite a sanctioned strength of 42.5, to induction of additional “force-enablers” like airborne early-warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft and mid-air refuelers as well as a wide array of air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles

The report presented on Monday has detailed a “glide path” to increasing the number of fighter squadrons, which includes a foreign OEM (original equipment manufacturer) tying up with an Indian partner to set up a production line here.
While HAL’s three production lines for the light-weight Tejas will continue, this will be a parallel production line for a different medium-weight fighter,” another official said. This involves the long-pending project to manufacture 114 new 4.5-generation fighters, at an initial estimate of Rs 1.25 lakh crore, with foreign collaboration

If GoI is thinking of setting up another line this time in the form of a collaboration between a Pvt Sector player & a Foreign OEM & spend the equivalent of 25-30 billion USD not the 15 billion USD as given there which is an outdated figure from the previous decade , they ought to ask themselves how do they plan to go about it ?

Thru the tender route or the G2G route as in built into this equation is the time required for the entire process to be undertaken followed by the time required to execute the contract in full. The former itself will take a good 5-6 years followed by at least 10 years to execute the full contract & this is an optimistic assessment.

All this doesn't take into account what happens if we go up against the Chinese in the next 4-5 years for that's the only reason this requirement exists otherwise what we currently possess & what's in the pipeline is more than enough to cater to the Paxtanis in the present & the future.

Unfortunately , this is what happens when we don't undertake a stitch in time. We're already facing a ridiculous situation w.r.t the IN where we've signed a contract for 3 additional Scorpenes , are pursuing 6 nos vide Project 75 I followed by our indigenous 6 nos vide Project 76 & then there's the SSN project for 2 SSN which is a preliminary requirement of a total of 6 such submarines.

If we pursue this requirement we'd see in the next decade 83 nos Mk-1a + 97 nos Mk-1a , 108 nos Mk-2 , 40 nos AMCA Mk-1 to be executed thru an assortment of DPSU & Pvt Sector Players plus 114 nos MRFA . There's a very high chance we could see a bump up in the numbers of LCA Mk-2 & AMCA Mk-1 which could be affected if we were to go in for the foreign MRFA route.

Further there's the development of the AMCA Mk-2 , TEDBF & possibly a 6th Gen FA & a possible 5th Gen FA Naval FA .

 

[randombully]

If GoI is thinking of setting up another line this time in the form of a collaboration between a Pvt Sector player & a Foreign OEM & spend the equivalent of 25-30 billion USD not the 15 billion USD as given there which is an outdated figure from the previous decade , they ought to ask themselves how do they plan to go about it ?

Thru the tender route or the G2G route as in built into this equation is the time required for the entire process to be undertaken followed by the time required to execute the contract in full. The former itself will take a good 5-6 years followed by at least 10 years to execute the full contract & this is an optimistic assessment.

All this doesn't take into account what happens if we go up against the Chinese in the next 4-5 years for that's the only reason this requirement exists otherwise what we currently possess & what's in the pipeline is more than enough to cater to the Paxtanis in the present & the future.

Unfortunately , this is what happens when we don't undertake a stitch in time. We're already facing a ridiculous situation w.r.t the IN where we've signed a contract for 3 additional Scorpenes , are pursuing 6 nos vide Project 75 I followed by our indigenous 6 nos vide Project 76 & then there's the SSN project for 2 SSN which is a preliminary requirement of a total of 6 such submarines.

If we pursue this requirement we'd see in the next decade 83 nos Mk-1a + 97 nos Mk-1a , 108 nos Mk-2 , 40 nos AMCA Mk-1 to be executed thru an assortment of DPSU & Pvt Sector Players plus 114 nos MRFA . There's a very high chance we could see a bump up in the numbers of LCA Mk-2 & AMCA Mk-1 which could be affected if we were to go in for the foreign MRFA route.

Further there's the development of the AMCA Mk-2 , TEDBF & possibly a 6th Gen FA & a possible 5th Gen FA Naval FA .

If we're going for foreign jet in mrfa, it's much better to go directly for 100+ su57( the twin seater configuration) and merge that deal with future jet engine deal for su30mki.

 

[shade2]

If GoI is thinking of setting up another line this time in the form of a collaboration between a Pvt Sector player & a Foreign OEM & spend the equivalent of 25-30 billion USD not the 15 billion USD as given there which is an outdated figure from the previous decade , they ought to ask themselves how do they plan to go about it ?

Thru the tender route or the G2G route as in built into this equation is the time required for the entire process to be undertaken followed by the time required to execute the contract in full. The former itself will take a good 5-6 years followed by at least 10 years to execute the full contract & this is an optimistic assessment.

All this doesn't take into account what happens if we go up against the Chinese in the next 4-5 years for that's the only reason this requirement exists otherwise what we currently possess & what's in the pipeline is more than enough to cater to the Paxtanis in the present & the future.

Unfortunately , this is what happens when we don't undertake a stitch in time. We're already facing a ridiculous situation w.r.t the IN where we've signed a contract for 3 additional Scorpenes , are pursuing 6 nos vide Project 75 I followed by our indigenous 6 nos vide Project 76 & then there's the SSN project for 2 SSN which is a preliminary requirement of a total of 6 such submarines.

If we pursue this requirement we'd see in the next decade 83 nos Mk-1a + 97 nos Mk-1a , 108 nos Mk-2 , 40 nos AMCA Mk-1 to be executed thru an assortment of DPSU & Pvt Sector Players plus 114 nos MRFA . There's a very high chance we could see a bump up in the numbers of LCA Mk-2 & AMCA Mk-1 which could be affected if we were to go in for the foreign MRFA route.

Further there's the development of the AMCA Mk-2 , TEDBF & possibly a 6th Gen FA & a possible 5th Gen FA Naval FA .

It is for MRFA only, if they were serious they would have gone for another G2G with le Francais for 36 or 54 Rafale with some additional fees for them prioritizing deliveries by assigning Armee de l'Air production slots for us.

Do you remember this article? the main point here is the GoI wants to go for a """" non controversial procurement"""""

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/general-news/centre-hints-at-issuing-an-open-tender-for-iafs-mega-114-fighter-jets-deal20241029144935/

i.e To prevent issues like pic related happening again with another G2G deal


So you can imagine since every ((( procedure ))) will be followed for a """" clean """" procurement, so as to no keechad is flung on Topji's teflon coated image, how many years this will take, possibly more than a decade.

Maybe Topji won't even be in power by then.


Now the users, since they keep singing the same tune from the past 3 or more years, you would assume they would be willing to induct a certain "three legged cheetah" and "mig21+++++++" in good numbers to make up for the shortfall, but even that won't be done, the same games as usual will be played, perhaps "Not Mk1A" will become outdated and a new set of requirements will be produced.

Let us hope that missile and radar maxxing is being done, that's the only thing we can do, rest all is just delays and bureaucracy and back-and-forth.
J-20 and J-35 must be welcomed by a hail of missiles whenever they come in the next 4-5 years.

 

[Azaad]

If we're going for foreign jet in mrfa, it's much better to go directly for 100+ su57( the twin seater configuration) and merge that deal with future jet engine deal for su30mki.

It is for MRFA only, if they were serious they would have gone for another G2G with le Francais for 36 or 54 Rafale with some additional fees for them prioritizing deliveries by assigning Armee de l'Air production slots for us.

Do you remember this article? the main point here is the GoI wants to go for a """" non controversial procurement"""""

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/general-news/centre-hints-at-issuing-an-open-tender-for-iafs-mega-114-fighter-jets-deal20241029144935/

i.e To prevent issues like pic related happening again with another G2G deal
View attachment 26637

So you can imagine since every ((( procedure ))) will be followed for a """" clean """" procurement, so as to no keechad is flung on Topji's teflon coated image, how many years this will take, possibly more than a decade.

Maybe Topji won't even be in power by then.


Now the users, since they keep singing the same tune from the past 3 or more years, you would assume they would be willing to induct a certain "three legged cheetah" and "mig21+++++++" in good numbers to make up for the shortfall, but even that won't be done, the same games as usual will be played, perhaps "Not Mk1A" will become outdated and a new set of requirements will be produced.

Let us hope that missile and radar maxxing is being done, that's the only thing we can do, rest all is just delays and bureaucracy and back-and-forth.
J-20 and J-35 must be welcomed by a hail of missiles whenever they come in the next 4-5 years.

If the entire issue is sought to be mitigated thru revival of the MRFA tender then that could've been done in 2021 itself as ACM Chaudhari demanded which led to a public spat with the then CDS Gen Rawat who along with the MoD were in favour of a piece meal acquisition a la the MKIs.

Why were 3 years wasted? Besides as per latest assessments the F4 version of the Rafales are deemed inadequate to go up against the J-20s from what I understand based on various reports to the same on SM.

The definitive version of the Rafales which would be able to do so is the F-5 whose upgradation was due in 2025 but has now been postponed to 2030 & later. But this again can be countered by - what happens when China deploys their 6th Gen FAs? This is also assuming that the VLO J-20 won't see much upgradation to its capabilities for the next 10 years since remember we're comparing the capabilities of the J-20 as it exists today to the Rafale F5 when it comes next decade.

I don't think the Su-57 stands a chance for the simple reason it's still WiP - work in progress & will mature only towards the end of this decade or early next decade. The IAF after burning its fingers multiple times has as a matter of policy chosen not to consider such platforms which is the reason they're not too enthusiastic about the F-35 else constraints apart the latter is a much better platform than the Su-57 which at best is a LO quasi 5th Gen FA.

Had we not gone in for the Rafales, the Su-57 would make a great addition. In its present form it brings little value to the IAF. I'd extend that argument to most of Russian platforms except their N Submarines & a few other exceptions.

In the meanwhile you're seeing frantic attempts by our armed forces to come up with solutions to detect stealth like the system of systems by networking the IA, IN & IAF networks along with all civilian radar systems, radars for weather monitoring & production, including the various cell phone radars etc.

Further they've also just come up with anti stealth radars - the first batch of which has been handed over to the armed forces. Then there's our procurement of the Russian Voronezh radar systems. The efficacy of these radar systems is moot but in the absence of a 5th Gen FA & our bureaucratic system which are more an impediment than an enabler , we're trying our best to come up with a solution to a vexing problem.

 

[randombully]

If the entire issue is sought to be mitigated thru revival of the MRFA tender then that could've been done in 2021 itself as ACM Chaudhari demanded which led to a public spat with the then CDS Gen Rawat who along with the MoD were in favour of a piece meal acquisition a la the MKIs.

Why were 3 years wasted? Besides as per latest assessments the F4 version of the Rafales are deemed inadequate to go up against the J-20s from what I understand based on various reports to the same on SM.

The definitive version of the Rafales which would be able to do so is the F-5 whose upgradation was due in 2025 but has now been postponed to 2030 & later. But this again can be countered by - what happens when China deploys their 6th Gen FAs? This is also assuming that the VLO J-20 won't see much upgradation to its capabilities for the next 10 years since remember we're comparing the capabilities of the J-20 as it exists today to the Rafale F5 when it comes next decade.

I don't think the Su-57 stands a chance for the simple reason it's still WiP - work in progress & will mature only towards the end of this decade or early next decade. The IAF after burning its fingers multiple times has as a matter of policy chosen not to consider such platforms which is the reason they're not too enthusiastic about the F-35 else constraints apart the latter is a much better platform than the Su-57 which at best is a LO quasi 5th Gen FA.

Had we not gone in for the Rafales, the Su-57 would make a great addition. In its present form it brings little value to the IAF. I'd extend that argument to most of Russian platforms except their N Submarines & a few other exceptions.

In the meanwhile you're seeing frantic attempts by our armed forces to come up with solutions to detect stealth like the system of systems by networking the IA, IN & IAF networks along with all civilian radar systems, radars for weather monitoring & production, including the various cell phone radars etc.

Further they've also just come up with anti stealth radars - the first batch of which has been handed over to the armed forces. Then there's our procurement of the Russian Voronezh radar systems. The efficacy of these radar systems is moot but in the absence of a 5th Gen FA & our bureaucratic system which are more an impediment than an enabler , we're trying our best to come up with a solution to a vexing problem.

Except f35.
Su57 is the most advanced and capable platform we can buy.
It may struggle against j20( sy57 is the least stealthy 5th gen out there), but it will mop the floor against any non stealth chinese fighter.
Will also be the most capable SEAD and deep penetration fighter in our arsenal till amca if we buy.
So while lacking in stealth comparing to other 5th gen, but lot more stealthy than any 4.5 gen airframe.
It's a better purchase than rafale.
And russia can participate in mrfa like other contenders

 

[shade2]

If the entire issue is sought to be mitigated thru revival of the MRFA tender then that could've been done in 2021 itself as ACM Chaudhari demanded which led to a public spat with the then CDS Gen Rawat who along with the MoD were in favour of a piece meal acquisition a la the MKIs.

Why were 3 years wasted? Besides as per latest assessments the F4 version of the Rafales are deemed inadequate to go up against the J-20s from what I understand based on various reports to the same on SM.

The definitive version of the Rafales which would be able to do so is the F-5 whose upgradation was due in 2025 but has now been postponed to 2030 & later. But this again can be countered by - what happens when China deploys their 6th Gen FAs? This is also assuming that the VLO J-20 won't see much upgradation to its capabilities for the next 10 years since remember we're comparing the capabilities of the J-20 as it exists today to the Rafale F5 when it comes next decade.

I don't think the Su-57 stands a chance for the simple reason it's still WiP - work in progress & will mature only towards the end of this decade or early next decade. The IAF after burning its fingers multiple times has as a matter of policy chosen not to consider such platforms which is the reason they're not too enthusiastic about the F-35 else constraints apart the latter is a much better platform than the Su-57 which at best is a LO quasi 5th Gen FA.

Had we not gone in for the Rafales, the Su-57 would make a great addition. In its present form it brings little value to the IAF. I'd extend that argument to most of Russian platforms except their N Submarines & a few other exceptions.

In the meanwhile you're seeing frantic attempts by our armed forces to come up with solutions to detect stealth like the system of systems by networking the IA, IN & IAF networks along with all civilian radar systems, radars for weather monitoring & production, including the various cell phone radars etc.

Further they've also just come up with anti stealth radars - the first batch of which has been handed over to the armed forces. Then there's our procurement of the Russian Voronezh radar systems. The efficacy of these radar systems is moot but in the absence of a 5th Gen FA & our bureaucratic system which are more an impediment than an enabler , we're trying our best to come up with a solution to a vexing problem.

imo IAF and Sarkar's full focus should be on missile radar maxxing, this MRFA pass the file business can be left to the bureaucrats.

Kuch bhi karlo none of these imported fighters will appear in good quantities before 5 years, User doesn't want Tejas or any other DRDO/HAL product even to stop squadron strength failing, so only option left is SAM & Radar

 

[Azaad]

Except f35.
Su57 is the most advanced and capable platform we can buy.
It may struggle against j20( sy57 is the least stealthy 5th gen out there), but it will mop the floor against any non stealth chinese fighter.
Will also be the most capable SEAD and deep penetration fighter in our arsenal till amca if we buy.
So while lacking in stealth comparing to other 5th gen, but lot more stealthy than any 4.5 gen airframe.
It's a better purchase than rafale.
And russia can participate in mrfa like other contenders

It's not a mature platform. Besides that's NOT the only thing going against it . In the past the IAF has been on a steep learning curve refining inadequately designed or built FA beginning with the Gnats followed by the Jaguars ( the MiG -23 & MiG -27 were deemed to be too sub optimal & problematic designs to upgrade, hence they weren't upgraded but retired) , the MiG-21 & finally the MKIs. Check out Saurav Jha's views on this phenomenon especially when it comes to the Soviet & later Russian FAs especially the MKI.

Just as the Russian aviation industry wouldn't probably exist or in any case be in the shape it is in today without the MKI contract with India, the MKIs wouldn't be the FA it is without IAF intervention, the benefits of which the Russians coolly incorporated into various iterations of the Su-30 they then sold to various countries among them China besides inducting the Su-30 M2 into their AF much later which is probably the most sophisticated version of the Su-30 aside from the MKI & of course the J-16.

What this tells us is we'd have to undertake extensive modifications / upgradations to the Su-57 as in an MKI isation. The last time we undertook such an exercise it took us 20 years from the early 90s to the early 2010s to do so with the MKI. I don't think the IAF fancies undertaking such an exercise again .

 

[randombully]

It's not a mature platform. Besides that's NOT the only thing going against it . In the past the IAF has been on a steep learning curve refining inadequately designed or built FA beginning with the Gnats followed by the Jaguars ( the MiG -23 & MiG -27 were deemed to be too sub optimal & problematic designs to upgrade, hence they weren't upgraded but retired) , the MiG-21 & finally the MKIs. Check out Saurav Jha's views on this phenomenon especially when it comes to the Soviet & later Russian FAs especially the MKI.

Just as the Russian aviation industry wouldn't probably exist or in any case be in the shape it is in today without the MKI contract with India, the MKIs wouldn't be the FA it is without IAF intervention, the benefits of which the Russians coolly incorporated into various iterations of the Su-30 they then sold to various countries among them China besides inducting the Su-30 M2 into their AF much later which is probably the most sophisticated version of the Su-30 aside from the MKI & of course the J-16.

What this tells us is we'd have to undertake extensive modifications / upgradations to the Su-57 as in an MKI isation. The last time we undertook such an exercise it took us 20 years from the early 90s to the early 2010s to do so with the MKI. I don't think the IAF fancies undertaking such an exercise again .

Su 57 in its current configuration with al41 engines is already better than any other fighter in mrfa.
And have Most long term potential, non stealth airframes will retire early than stealth ones.

 

[Migflug]

Correct, if going for Mrfa then better go for Su57, use the su 30 line under ppp to quickly ramp up the production.Rqfale now do not make sense, and French won't be sharing us any ToT wrt Rafale. While we can use Russian economic situation to leverage some niche tech wrt 57

Except f35.
Su57 is the most advanced and capable platform we can buy.
It may struggle against j20( sy57 is the least stealthy 5th gen out there), but it will mop the floor against any non stealth chinese fighter.
Will also be the most capable SEAD and deep penetration fighter in our arsenal till amca if we buy.
So while lacking in stealth comparing to other 5th gen, but lot more stealthy than any 4.5 gen airframe.
It's a better purchase than rafale.
And russia can participate in mrfa like other contenders

 

[shade2]

This defense bro sees only "Import"


View: https://x.com/sriramthg/status/1896784101807714611

I see only 5-6 years of trials and chai biscoot negotiations and another 5 years for all 114 jets to be delivered assuming all goes to plan, and someone doesn't start screaming SCAM along the way

That is a decade or more from today
New Rafales in 2035

Correct, if going for Mrfa then better go for Su57, use the su 30 line under ppp to quickly ramp up the production.Rqfale now do not make sense, and French won't be sharing us any ToT wrt Rafale. While we can use Russian economic situation to leverage some niche tech wrt 57

Ruskals ((( leverage ))) our genrols, politicians and bureaucrats, not the other way around, irrespective of their kangali.

However the biggest obstacle to buying Su57 is the khauf of Uncle Sam and Euros.

If such terror wasn't there, it was the most simplest option to order more proven Su-30mki, it is in service for many years, is the backbone of IAF, so what if it's a bit expensive to operate? You don't want Tejas, you want exactly 114 Rafales built in an Indian factory which is still a decade out.

So more Su-30 would be a logical choice to arrest falling squadron numbers.
Instead only 12 are ordered to make up for crashes over the years.

 

[Azaad]

Su 57 in its current configuration with al41 engines is already better than any other fighter in mrfa.
And have Most long term potential, non stealth airframes will retire early than stealth ones.

You're not factoring in the logistics training & tactics all of which would take time & money. We already have the Rafales so we don't require much familiarisation with the platform except to train new pilots plus we've already evolved tactics & networked the Rafale into our networks.

Buying the Su-57 means we'd have to undertake this exercise all over again . Besides the Russian AF or the VKS themselves haven't shown much faith in the platform having committed only to order only 75 nos.

Apart from this nugget of information apparently we've no news since late 2023 of the numbers they've inducted for the Russians aren't disclosing any information.

This could be the function of the Su-57 undergoing various upgrades as well as fitment of the Item 30 TF - the so called 2nd Stage TF with trials being carried out which only underlines the point I've made earlier that the Su-57 is very much a Work in Progress - WiP.

 

[randombully]

You're not factoring in the logistics training & tactics all of which would take time & money. We already have the Rafales so we don't require much familiarisation with the platform except to train new pilots plus we've already evolved tactics & networked the Rafale into our networks.

Buying the Su-57 means we'd have to undertake this exercise all over again . Besides the Russian AF or the VKS themselves haven't shown much faith in the platform having committed only to order only 75 nos.

Apart from this nugget of information apparently we've no news since late 2023 of the numbers they've inducted for the Russians aren't disclosing any information.

This could be the function of the Su-57 undergoing various upgrades as well as fitment of the Item 30 TF - the so called 2nd Stage TF with trials being carried out which only underlines the point I've made earlier that the Su-57 is very much a Work in Progress - WiP.

I think the longer service life of su57 And it being stealth( least stealthy 5th gen bit still a stealth jet) jet will triumph any advantage rafale has with already established infrastructure.

Vks is waiting for al51 engine to complete testing( it's in final stages of testing), beside they have so far received approx 30 su57 with al41 engine and waiting for rest to come with al51 after that more orders is a guarantee, till al51 gets certified russia will keep production line open by production su57 with al41 for Alegria.

Su57 with alf51 is in final stages of work in progress, su57 with al41 Is already in production.
While su57 with al51 will be much better to buy, but even with al41 it far surpasses rafale.


Plus rafale's orderbook is full right now.
Would have pay extra premium just like we are paying for navy's rafale.

I would much rather that our airforce receive it's last su57 in mid 2030s than it's last rafale in mid 2030s

 

[silentassassin265]

Is dhruv helicopters fleet back?

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Precisely why this approach should've been followed when developing an alternative to HAL instead of the SPV floated for AMCA by MoD waiting for nearly 3 years before they got the GoI to sanction funds for the development of the AMCA.

There are talks of increasing the quantum of Mk-2 to some 300+ nos now from the original 108 nos. We can follow the same model if integration of 97 nos Mk-1a proves successful assuming it's handed over to a pvt player instead of pie in the sky schemes like choosing a Pvt Sector Player as lead integrator for as prestigious & sensitive a program as the AMCA with zero experience whatsoever in the aviation industry like they were previously pursuing.

We can prop up an duopoly but at present I can only count 3 guys to do the job.
1. TASL
2. L&T
3. Adani.

TASL - Already working on C-295 program and have sufficient experience in this type of projects now. Most probably the best candidate.

L&T - Second most interested party and already working on Ship building, Missile systems. But they are getting cock blocked by DPSU Ship builders when it comes to Capital ships like destroyers. Then force them to act as sub system partner.

Adani - Have the money power and interest to do the Job. Already the OEM for IAI and DRDO in Guns, artillery, A2G bombs, MANPADS etc. But muh scam will be called out by Rahul baba and his mutts.

This entire project is high capex thing and the players need to shed lot of money. But for that clear procurement numbers needed. Current bakchodi of multiple approvals and 3-4 year paper pushing in MOD will not give anything. MOD babus should push paper past like their counterparts in MEITY Babus who pushed fast enough to get OSAT.

HAL should work on MK1A. For MK2 we can have two lead integrators. This will allow them to absorb sufficient know how to jump into AMCA bandwagon. But for helicopters this will be on HAL since it is their IP and it is unfair to strip their own products. On the other hand drones like Archer SRUAV, Archer MALE,TAPAS, Ghatak can be open tendered between these two since it is from ADE/ADA.

I don't give crap about Foreign OEM JV anymore. Avionics, Targeting systems, Radars were matured enough. We got our BVR, A2G, AAR missiles. Then seriously waste of time to spend huge dollars to buy an 4.5 gen jets. We should stick with MK1A and MK2 now. Get the Sukhoi ready to modern standards, Get the Rafale in G2G deal and ramp up its numbers. Next will be AMCA only.

The issue was always the publicity around the event especially when they chose to exhibit their crown jewels that too in an extremely low profile event in Hyderabad instead of displaying them at AI -25.

They could've done so at Hyderabad too but with the right publicity. All they could've done was copied HAL in how the latter went about organising the AI-25.

I'd go one step further & ask why didn't they offer to co host AI-25 assuming such a thing was possible ( I personally don't think HAL would be inclined to co host AI ) . Think of the amount of free publicity they'd attract especially coverage from foreign participants with the HGV , BM-05 , Pralay , Agni -V , etc .

My belief is these products do not have any export market due to rules like MTCR etc. Also Indian government themselves will not allow us to sell HGV, BM-05 type of missiles. May be Pralay is a long shot but still MTCR will come into picture. So they don't spend type to showcase in AI2025

 

[Azaad]

I think the longer service life of su57 And it being stealth( least stealthy 5th gen bit still a stealth jet) jet will triumph any advantage rafale has with already established infrastructure.

Vks is waiting for al51 engine to complete testing( it's in final stages of testing), beside they have so far received approx 30 su57 with al41 engine and waiting for rest to come with al51 after that more orders is a guarantee, till al51 gets certified russia will keep production line open by production su57 with al41 for Alegria.

Su57 with alf51 is in final stages of work in progress, su57 with al41 Is already in production.
While su57 with al51 will be much better to buy, but even with al41 it far surpasses rafale.


Plus rafale's orderbook is full right now.
Would have pay extra premium just like we are paying for navy's rafale.

I would much rather that our airforce receive it's last su57 in mid 2030s than it's last rafale in mid 2030s

Longer service life of Russian equipments ? Please tell me you're joking. All you've to do is look at the TTSL of any Russian TF . It used to be half that of any western TF. Now it's around a third or a quarter .

Recently the Russians came up with a new iteration of the AL-31 which was displayed in an aero exhibition in China IIRC & claimed it had a TTSL of 6000 hours. It's still unverified.

Just as the TTSL of the Su-57. Our MKIs had a TTSL of ~ 2500 hours IIRC. It's only thanks to DRDO & it's affiliate labs along with HAL , CSIR & NAL that they've increased it to above 6000 hours . Ditto for the AL-31 FP TF.

All you're doing with the details you've provided in your post is merely buttress my larger point that the Su-57 hasn't been awarded its FOC & is still WiP which means its due to receive its certification only around 2030.

Add another 10 years for us to negotiate , sign an order & then begin production along with MKI ization of the Su-57 and we'd be receiving those FAs in the 2040s.

Hence when the world is inducting 5th & 6th Gen FA & are possibly testing 7th Gen FA we'd be inducting not one but 2 x 4.5 + Gen FA in the LCA Mk-2 & the Su-57 .

Btw the principal reason behind inducting the Su-57 is China who by that time will cease to be a problem for the issue itself will be resolved in the 2030s one way or another.

 

[Azaad]

My belief is these products do not have any export market due to rules like MTCR etc. Also Indian government themselves will not allow us to sell HGV, BM-05 type of missiles. May be Pralay is a long shot but still MTCR will come into picture. So they don't spend type to showcase in AI2025

My larger point was the spin off benefits our defence industry can exploit thru advertising such systems. How many countries can develop an HGV or a 1500 km IRBM or even a > 5000 km MIRV IRBM ?

That effect shines off on a Pralay or a 155 mm ATAGS or MGS or the various radar systems & so on that we've developed & mfgd.

 

[randombully]

Longer service life of Russian equipments ? Please tell me you're joking. All you've to do is look at the TTSL of any Russian TF . It used to be half that of any western TF. Now it's around a third or a quarter .

Recently the Russians came up with a new iteration of the AL-31 which was displayed in an aero exhibition in China IIRC & claimed it had a TTSL of 6000 hours. It's still unverified.

Just as the TTSL of the Su-57. Our MKIs had a TTSL of ~ 2500 hours IIRC. It's only thanks to DRDO & it's affiliate labs along with HAL , CSIR & NAL that they've increased it to above 6000 hours . Ditto for the AL-31 FP TF.

All you're doing with the details you've provided in your post is merely buttress my larger point that the Su-57 hasn't been awarded its FOC & is still WiP which means its due to receive its certification only around 2030.

Add another 10 years for us to negotiate , sign an order & then begin production along with MKI ization of the Su-57 and we'd be receiving those FAs in the 2040s.

Hence when the world is inducting 5th & 6th Gen FA & are possibly testing 7th Gen FA we'd be inducting not one but 2 x 4.5 + Gen FA in the LCA Mk-2 & the Su-57 .

Btw the principal reason behind inducting the Su-57 is China who by that time will cease to be a problem for the issue itself will be resolved in the 2030s one way or another.

Longer lifetime here means non stealth airframes will be retired before 5th gen vlo aircrafts, 5th gen aircraft will serve way past 4th gen, though exceptions can exists for niche roles.
Buying a 5th gen means we can use it for more decades.
After 2050, continue using rafale will be equivalent of using mig 21 right now no matter how much it's upgraded.

FOC depends on requirements of airforce.
J20 got foc before f35, f35 even without foc is multirole capable while j20 even after foc is only air to air Capable, it is only now chinese are making it multirole.

I'n it's current configuration su57 is already integrated with.
K77m(bvr), r74m2(wvr), izdelyie 810( awacs killers), means su57 is fully air to air Capable, will only need to integrate domestic missiles, like how we are integrating them with tejas, su30mki right now, the same integration we will have to do with rafale.

Su57 is also integrated with
Kh 38m, kh 35 U, kh 58usk, kh 69
Which means su57 is also anti ship, anti radiation and anti surface Capable.

So it's already multirole right now, the only thing missing for foc is al51 which is in final stages of testing, and as said before even with al41 it's far surpasses rafale.

You highly underestimate how ready su57, it is already a fully multirole production aircraft, waiting for an engine upgrade.
It's no different than su30mki waiting for engine upgrade.




I would argue that su57 with al51 even with our own avionics integrated like Virupaksha
can start delivery by 2030, and rafale won't start delivery before 2028-2030.


That issue being resolved by 2030s, is your speculation, acting on it as a fact will be just stupid.


Another thing is Russians will be more willing to share more tot and more local production than France ever will, and tot of su57 will be more useful than tot of rafale for future projects.
Russians will also be more open to customization of su57 , just like they are more open to customization and domestic upgrades of su30mki.
France on the other hand will never be as open.