Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[randombully]

My larger point was the spin off benefits our defence industry can exploit thru advertising such systems. How many countries can develop an HGV or a 1500 km IRBM or even a > 5000 km MIRV IRBM ?

That effect shines off on a Pralay or a 155 mm ATAGS or MGS or the various radar systems & so on that we've developed & mfgd.

The countries buying equipment put people with decades of military experience in charge, marketing BM or missile tech will not help in other areas, that's why nobody fuckin does it.

 

[Azaad]

Longer lifetime here means non stealth airframes will be retired before 5th gen vlo aircrafts, 5th gen aircraft will serve way past 4th gen, though exceptions can exists for niche roles.
Buying a 5th gen means we can use it for more decades.
After 2050, continue using rafale will be equivalent of using mig 21 right now no matter how much it's upgraded.

I'm referring to the TTSL of existing Russian FA. That they have a notoriously shorter lifespan as compared to western FAs is not conjecture , it's a fact.

Besides we're inducting the Mk-2 in the 2030s apart from 200 nos Mk-1a . All these are expected to serve for at least 3 decades if not more .

Are you aware of the OPEX of 5th Gen FA ? You can probably maintain 5 squadrons of 4.5 Gen FA at the cost of maintaining 1 squadron of 5th Gen FA.

So I really don't know what's the point you're making.

FOC depends on requirements of airforce.
J20 got foc before f35, f35 even without foc is multirole capable while j20 even after foc is only air to air Capable, it is only now chinese are making it multirole.

What ? Who says the J-20 has got the FOC ? They've been fitted with the WS-15 TF just a couple of years back much like the Su-57 was equipped with the Izdeliye 30 TFs . It's still being tested with these new TFs.

We need a 5th Gen Air Superiority & Air Strike FA. Right now the Rafale fits the bill. The F-35 would be ideal but as of now their order book is full plus with the kind of strings attached they come with it's not worth the effort.

I'n it's current configuration su57 is already integrated with.
K77m(bvr), r74m2(wvr), izdelyie 810( awacs killers), means su57 is fully air to air Capable, will only need to integrate domestic missiles, like how we are integrating them with tejas, su30mki right now, the same integration we will have to do with rafale.

Su57 is also integrated with
Kh 38m, kh 35 U, kh 58usk, kh 69
Which means su57 is also anti ship, anti radiation and anti surface Capable.

So it's already multirole right now, the only thing missing for foc is al51 which is in final stages of testing, and as said before even with al41 it's far surpasses rafale.

You highly underestimate how ready su57, it is already a fully multirole production aircraft, waiting for an engine upgrade.
It's no different than su30mki waiting for engine upgrade.

You need to convince the IAF of your argument not me. Up until now there's no indication the IAF is interested in the Su-57 whereas we've plenty of indications they're interested in more Rafales.

And I'd trust the IAF on their judgement for they've plenty of experience in dealing with the Russians , know what the Su-57 is capable of & also the Rafales.

I would argue that su57 with al51 even with our own avionics integrated like Virupaksha
can start delivery by 2030, and rafale won't start delivery before 2028-2030.

There you go again. The Virupaksha is still under testing. The Super Sukhoi upgrades is expected to begin in 2030-32 & go on for 8 years for only 80 odd FAs .

And you're proposing we fit in the Virupaksha onto the Su-57 when we don't even know whether what the Russians have fitted in is good enough for the job or whether they'd agree to us fitting in the Virupaksha.

What you're proposing is the MKI ization of the Su-57 which as I've pointed out in my previous post will be once the VKS has certified the Su-57 FOC which should be closer to 2030 & then we'd get into the act assuming we're interested with the entire process taking us a good 10 years if not more.

That issue being resolved by 2030s, is your speculation, acting on it as a fact will be just stupid.

So what dates are you proposing for FOC for the Su-57 which got the Izdeliye 30 only around 2023 ?

Another thing is Russians will be more willing to share more tot and more local production than France ever will, and tot of su57 will be more useful than tot of rafale for future projects.

I doubt we're at the stage wherein which we need ToT from the Russians whereas we definitely need mfg ToT from the French coz our R&D has reached at least European standards or is within sniffing distance of them .

The LCA Mk-2 will see a lot of tech which the Rafales we've gotten has which is F3R standards & is definitely more advanced than its counterpart the J-39 Gripen E.

What you're referring to may have been true in the late 2000s when we signed the JV with Russia for joint development of the Su-57 / FGFA.

Russians will also be more open to customization of su57 , just like they are more open to customization and domestic upgrades of su30mki.
France on the other hand will never be as open.

I don't think you understand the emphasis on time & the fact that this particular requirement is ONLY a China specific requirement that I'm stressing. Our war with China will be over this time in 2035 one way or another.

All these pie in the skies we're discussing here & the IAF is discussing with the MoD is of little use if the FAs we're thinking of procuring won't arrive within 3 years and the only FA which fits the bill as of today is the Rafale.

Dassault can STILL accommodate us if we move fast and we can have at least 36 nos before or by 2030 as well as the 26 nos the IN has finalized on Dassault. Everything else is a waste of time as of now.

 

[Azaad]

The countries buying equipment put people with decades of military experience in charge, marketing BM or missile tech will not help in other areas, that's why nobody fuckin does it.

What ? BMs , CMs upto 300 kms doesn't fall under the prohibited category of the MTCR. Those were on display at the exhibition too apart from the HGVs , Agni , BM-03 , NASAMs , Helina , artillery , armoured vehicles , radar systems , the whole shebang.

Except the Agni , HGV & the BM-03 all the other systems if not most of them are exports worthy. As of now all these countries are flocking to RoK or Turkiye to fulfill these & other requirements which could be a function of to begin with reach which means either those cos have an office in these countries or / a military attache in their embassies there , better' marketing , better presence at international exhibitions & so on .

We've none of the above & the GoI is having us believe we're doing great things in exports which is happening more out of default than design. The least we could do was to have DRDO participate in a full fledged manner in the AI-25 for it's one of the few international defence expos we host .

 

[randombully]

I'm referring to the TTSL of existing Russian FA. That they have a notoriously shorter lifespan as compared to western FAs is not conjecture , it's a fact.

Besides we're inducting the Mk-2 in the 2030s apart from 200 nos Mk-1a . All these are expected to serve for at least 3 decades if not more .

Are you aware of the OPEX of 5th Gen FA ? You can probably maintain 5 squadrons of 4.5 Gen FA at the cost of maintaining 1 squadron of 5th Gen FA.

So I really don't know what's the point you're making.


What ? Who says the J-20 has got the FOC ? They've been fitted with the WS-15 TF just a couple of years back much like the Su-57 was equipped with the Izdeliye 30 TFs . It's still being tested with these new TFs.

We need a 5th Gen Air Superiority & Air Strike FA. Right now the Rafale fits the bill. The F-35 would be ideal but as of now their order book is full plus with the kind of strings attached they come with it's not worth the effort.



You need to convince the IAF of your argument not me. Up until now there's no indication the IAF is interested in the Su-57 whereas we've plenty of indications they're interested in more Rafales.

And I'd trust the IAF on their judgement for they've plenty of experience in dealing with the Russians , know what the Su-57 is capable of & also the Rafales.


There you go again. The Virupaksha is still under testing. The Super Sukhoi upgrades is expected to begin in 2030-32 & go on for 8 years for only 80 odd FAs .

And you're proposing we fit in the Virupaksha onto the Su-57 when we don't even know whether what the Russians have fitted in is good enough for the job or whether they'd agree to us fitting in the Virupaksha.

What you're proposing is the MKI ization of the Su-57 which as I've pointed out in my previous post will be once the VKS has certified the Su-57 FOC which should be closer to 2030 & then we'd get into the act assuming we're interested with the entire process taking us a good 10 years if not more.

So what dates are you proposing for FOC for the Su-57 which got the Izdeliye 30 only around 2023 ?

I doubt we're at the stage wherein which we need ToT from the Russians whereas we definitely need mfg ToT from the French coz our R&D has reached at least European standards or is within sniffing distance of them .

The LCA Mk-2 will see a lot of tech which the Rafales we've gotten has which is F3R standards & is definitely more advanced than its counterpart the J-39 Gripen E.

What you're referring to may have been true in the late 2000s when we signed the JV with Russia for joint development of the Su-57 / FGFA.

I don't think you understand the emphasis on time & the fact that this particular requirement is ONLY a China specific requirement that I'm stressing. Our war with China will be over this time in 2035 one way or another.

All these pie in the skies we're discussing here & the IAF is discussing with the MoD is of little use if the FAs we're thinking of procuring won't arrive within 3 years and the only FA which fits the bill as of today is the Rafale.

Dassault can STILL accommodate us if we move fast and we can have at least 36 nos before or by 2030 as well as the 26 nos the IN has finalized on Dassault. Everything else is a waste of time as of now.

I'm referring to the TTSL of existing Russian FA. That they have a notoriously shorter lifespan as compared to western FAs is not conjecture , it's a fact.

The existing russian FA you are talking is decades old tech.
The engines al31 of su30mki are later 3rd gen engine, same with engines of mig29.

Al41 of su35 and su57 already matches m88 of rafale in terms of reliability and life span while better twr than m88.

Besides we're inducting the Mk-2 in the 2030s apart from 200 nos Mk-1a . All these are expected to serve for at least 3 decades if not more .

And 5th gen ones can serve beyond 3 decades, 4-5 decades and still be relevant.
Not to mention in those 3 decades having a stealth jet is better than non stealth jet.

Are you aware of the OPEX of 5th Gen FA ? You can probably maintain 5 squadrons of 4.5 Gen FA at the cost of maintaining 1 squadron of 5th Gen FA.

What ? Who says the J-20 has got the FOC ? They've been fitted with the WS-15 TF just a couple of years back much like the Su-57 was equipped with the Izdeliye 30 TFs . It's still being tested with these new TFs.

Chinks gave it foc in 2021.
Foc is full operational clearance, means it can do every operations It was designed to do, even with worse engine.

The ws15 is more of a engine upgrade.
It's like saying su30mki is not foc certified because it uses older worse al31 engine instead of newer al41.

We need a 5th Gen Air Superiority & Air Strike FA. Right now the Rafale fits the bill

Su 57 is a 5th gen multirole( air Superiority and stRike) rafale is at most 4.5+ gen, it doesn't fit the bill of 5th gen air Superiority and strike fighter, su57 is better than it in both roles in its current configuration.

And I'd trust the IAF on their judgement for they've plenty of experience in dealing with the Russians , know what the Su-57 is capable of & also the Rafales.

If IAF genuinely beleifs rafale is better than su57 as a fighter jet, then airforce is fucked beyond saving.

There you go again. The Virupaksha is still under testing. The Super Sukhoi upgrades is expected to begin in 2030-32 & go on for 8 years for only 80 odd FAs .

And you're proposing we fit in the Virupaksha onto the Su-57 when we don't even know whether what the Russians have fitted in is good enough for the job or whether they'd agree to us fitting in the Virupaksha.

What you're proposing is the MKI ization of the Su-57 which as I've pointed out in my previous post will be once the VKS has certified the Su-57 FOC which should be closer to 2030 & then we'd get into the act assuming we're interested with the entire process taking us a good 10 years if not more.

If time is that much of the essence then we can just buy the current varient as it is, the current varient with al41 is already better than Rafale
Also rafale also doesn't have foc by that logic as rafale F5 is under development will only start delivery beyond 2030+, rafale is work in progress.
That's how dumb that foc argument is.
Current f4 varient of rafale is not capable of loyal wingman operations, f5 varient will be, su57 currently is capable of it( tho Russian okhotnic wingman is not)

So what dates are you proposing for FOC for the Su-57 which got the Izdeliye 30 only around 2023 ?

Don't know, tho I'm fine with current varient of su57 too Over rafale.
Tho I do propose foc of rafale to be granted beyond 2030+ when f5 varient will finally come, currently rafale is work in progress, as you said before we shouldn't get a not fully developed jet.

I doubt we're at the stage wherein which we need ToT from the Russians whereas we definitely need mfg ToT from the French coz our R&D has reached at least European standards or is within sniffing distance of them .

The LCA Mk-2 will see a lot of tech which the Rafales we've gotten has which is F3R standards & is definitely more advanced than its counterpart the J-39 Gripen E.

What you're referring to may have been true in the late 2000s when we signed the JV with Russia for joint development of the Su-57 / FGFA.

Russians have a working 5th gen, least stealthy of 5th gen but still a working and in production 5th gen with full multirole capabilities, we do not.
We have made leaps in progress and match Russia in lot and surpass them in few areas, but we're not ahead of russia in fighter jets.
That's the reality.

European standards? What standard?
You need to fucking understand the "latest "stuff of russia is not lower standard in terms of quality than Europeans,
Russian latest stuff is "technological" inferior to americans, but neither technological or qualitatively inferior to Europeans, older Russian stuff definitely is lower quality and russia uses lots of older stuff and relatively less latest stuff in service, but latest stuff qualitatively matches europe, just like rest of the world if you continue to put money in development quality improve, it's not some western magic.

don't think you understand the emphasis on time & the fact that this particular requirement is ONLY a China specific requirement that I'm stressing. Our war with China will be over this time in 2035 one way or another.

In that case just buying the current varient of su57 should be faster as unlike rafale whose order books are full, su57 is waiting for orders.

All these pie in the skies we're discussing here & the IAF is discussing with the MoD is of little use if the FAs we're thinking of procuring won't arrive within 3 years and the only FA which fits the bill as of today is the Rafale.

Rafale f4 ain't coming in 3 years, the only way for it to come is for production line to set up in india as production is full, plus it's work in progress F5 varient is in development, it will get foc in 2030+ when rafale f5 is developed, we will be buying a wip aircraft.
With su57 with al41 we can get initial lot directly from Russia with 3 years while domestic production lines are being set up, maybe if al51 I operationalised later varients could be fitted with it.

Dassault can STILL accommodate us if we move fast

Russia "will easily" accommodate us.

 

[randombully]

What ? BMs , CMs upto 300 kms doesn't fall under the prohibited category of the MTCR. Those were on display at the exhibition too apart from the HGVs , Agni , BM-03 , NASAMs , Helina , artillery , armoured vehicles , radar systems , the whole shebang.

Except the Agni , HGV & the BM-03 all the other systems if not most of them are exports worthy. As of now all these countries are flocking to RoK or Turkiye to fulfill these & other requirements which could be a function of to begin with reach which means either those cos have an office in these countries or / a military attache in their embassies there , better' marketing , better presence at international exhibitions & so on .

We've none of the above & the GoI is having us believe we're doing great things in exports which is happening more out of default than design. The least we could do was to have DRDO participate in a full fledged manner in the AI-25 for it's one of the few international defence expos we host .

Your point was advertising " startegic ballistic missiles" to help in sales in other missiles and systems, and it doesn't work that way.
As for missiles within mtcr requirement, we already advertise them and looking for customers, like brahmos, Akash, etc
And other systems like radars, artillary, APC are all being advertised and offered by respective parties.

 

[Azaad]

The existing russian FA you are talking is decades old tech.
The engines al31 of su30mki are later 3rd gen engine, same with engines of mig29.

So what exactly prompts you think that the new TFs they've come up with meets western standards or even betters it in terms of TTSL ?

Al41 of su35 and su57 already matches m88 of rafale in terms of reliability and life span while better twr than m88.

Says who ? You? On what basis ? I ask for the AL-41 has just made its appearance . Even the Russians wouldn't know the exact TTSL irrespective what they claim or portray in the media .

And 5th gen ones can serve beyond 3 decades, 4-5 decades and still be relevant.
Not to mention in those 3 decades having a stealth jet is better than non stealth jet.

Yes & which stealth FA are you proposing keeping in mind we need it for a war against China & we need it before 2030 ?

Chinks gave it foc in 2021.
Foc is full operational clearance, means it can do every operations It was designed to do, even with worse engine.

I'd like to see some citations . Not that it matters coming as it does from the Chinese past masters at propaganda. But nevertheless a citation helps.

The ws15 is more of a engine upgrade.
It's like saying su30mki is not foc certified because it uses older worse al31 engine instead of newer al41.

So you mean to say the system doesn't require a certification if a new component is introduced especially if it is as vital as a power plant that literally powers the FA ?

What sort of stupid logic are you employing to put your point across ? Are you arguing for the sake it ?

Su 57 is a 5th gen multirole( air Superiority and stRike) rafale is at most 4.5+ gen, it doesn't fit the bill of 5th gen air Superiority and strike fighter, su57 is better than it in both roles in its current configuration.

It's a LO FA without being a VLO FA. That's the long & short of it. It's still under testing . It's NOT a proven platform.

Rafale is a proven platform . Its SPECTRA suite is what is its USP . Besides the IAF are already using it & are impressed enough by it to want it to fulfill their MRFA requirements. Which part of it didn't you understand ?

If IAF genuinely beleifs rafale is better than su57 as a fighter jet, then airforce is fucked beyond saving.

The very fact that you don't hear the IAF speak about the Su-57 should tell you a tale of its own unless you require them to send you a signed affidavit.

If time is that much of the essence then we can just buy the current varient as it is, the current varient with al41 is already better than Rafale

I don't know quite how old you are but by making the same point repeatedly without any refences or citations neither are you going to convince me nor anybody else out here & certainly not the IAF ?

And if buying the Rafales were so easy we could have done it by now isn't it so as to prevent us not having this conversation ?

Also rafale also doesn't have foc by that logic as rafale F5 is under development will only start delivery beyond 2030+, rafale is work in progress.
That's how dumb that foc argument is.
Current f4 varient of rafale is not capable of loyal wingman operations, f5 varient will be, su57 currently is capable of it( tho Russian okhotnic wingman is not)

Yes , once the F5 standards are adopted the Rafales will undergo re certification. Same would be true for once our MKIs undergo Super Sukhoi upgrades. Aren't you aware of these bare basics ? How old are you anyway?

The issue here is the FA . Not the wingman . It's only once the FA is evaluated that extraneous issues like wingman are looked into . Is it important ? Yes. Is it a deal breaker ? No .

Don't know, tho I'm fine with current varient of su57 too Over rafale.
Tho I do propose foc of rafale to be granted beyond 2030+ when f5 varient will finally come, currently rafale is work in progress, as you said before we shouldn't get a not fully developed jet.

The F5 is an upgradation of the Rafales which has already been certified every time it undergoes an upgrade. I get that you're a great fanboy of the Su-57 . But as of now it's WiP. Just like the F-35. Does that mean both can't fight a war ? No they can . But as opposed to the Rafales they're not proven platforms which means there's a degree of risk in deploying them whether minor or major.

That's the whole purpose or FOC certification & the difference between a mature platform & a relatively newer one like say the LCA Mk-1 which we've had for nearly a decade now.

Russians have a working 5th gen, least stealthy of 5th gen but still a working and in production 5th gen with full multirole capabilities, we do not.
We have made leaps in progress and match Russia in lot and surpass them in few areas, but we're not ahead of russia in fighter jets.
That's the reality.

Russia is a declining power whichever way you dice it . We're a rising power. They're still massively behind in electronics & avionics to the extent that practically all their SMC requirements are imported . We'd be mfg them in house shortly.

European standards? What standard?
You need to fucking understand the "latest "stuff of russia is not lower standard in terms of quality than Europeans,

I think I'm wasting my time on you if you're arguing Russian FAs have a better TTSL than western FAs. That was the crux of the argument. Performance wise they have an edge in certain areas like the aerodynamics of Russian FAs are definitely better than it's counterparts but that's a function of design philosophy not technology. There's a big difference between the two.

If the west chose they could match the Russians in every such aerodynamic quality but they have different needs to fulfill from their FAs .

Russian latest stuff is "technological" inferior to americans, but neither technological or qualitatively inferior to Europeans, older Russian stuff definitely is lower quality and russia uses lots of older stuff and relatively less latest stuff in service, but latest stuff qualitatively matches europe, just like rest of the world if you continue to put money in development quality improve, it's not some western magic

Let's see. The latest FAs from Russia are the Su-35s which in itself is an upgrade of the Su-30 . On all parameters it doesn't compare well to the Rafales & the Eurofighters which is the reason the IAF hasn't gone for it nor was it included in the MRFA tender for the tech specs were deliberately drawn to keep Su-27 & it's various derivatives like the Su -30 & the Su-35 out.

Aerodynamics wise & in terms of kinematics it may score over the European FAs but besides that it has little to offer. It's turn around time like the MKI is low so is its TTSL . Rafales turn around time is a few hours which means it can fly 4-5 sorties a day which neither can the MKI do nor the Su-35 . In fact most if not all Russian FAs have a very high turn around time which means it needs more servicing post every sortie as compared to any European FA.

That's just the way the Russians & Europeans have built their FAs which once again is a function of their design philosophy. The Russians believe in mass ( quantity has a quality of its own ) & the Europeans believe in class . As of now the latter's design philosophy is not just multi role but omni role FAs. As of now none of the Russian FAs are omni role. The Russians claim the Su-57 is. Whether it actually is so is something time will tell.

In that case just buying the current varient of su57 should be faster as unlike rafale whose order books are full, su57 is waiting for orders.

Did you forget training logistics tactics familiarisation with the Rafales etc ? We seem to be going around in circles .

Rafale f4 ain't coming in 3 years, the only way for it to come is for production line to set up in india as production is full, plus it's work in progress F5 varient is in development, it will get foc in 2030+ when rafale f5 is developed, we will be buying a wip aircraft.
With su57 with al41 we can get initial lot directly from Russia with 3 years while domestic production lines are being set up, maybe if al51 I operationalised later varients could be fitted with it.

Rafale F4 is already out. They're building it to F4 specs for the UAE. If we were to buy the Rafale without much negotiations we'd have to buy the F3R standards the same as the previous lot.

In my conversations with French members on Strat Front one of whom was an ex senior functionary in Dassault , the latter can churn out 4 FAs in a month if need be meaning they can have 4 lines at Merignac . Right now they're juggling between 2-3 lines.

It seems clear you're a Su-57 fanboy & are arguing from the same PoV. You're also repeating a lot of your arguments . Your foundational knowledge is questionable & many a times you're arguing for the sake of it .

Consider this my last response to you on this topic.