Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[randombully]

My larger point was the spin off benefits our defence industry can exploit thru advertising such systems. How many countries can develop an HGV or a 1500 km IRBM or even a > 5000 km MIRV IRBM ?

That effect shines off on a Pralay or a 155 mm ATAGS or MGS or the various radar systems & so on that we've developed & mfgd.

The countries buying equipment put people with decades of military experience in charge, marketing BM or missile tech will not help in other areas, that's why nobody fuckin does it.

 

[Azaad]

Longer lifetime here means non stealth airframes will be retired before 5th gen vlo aircrafts, 5th gen aircraft will serve way past 4th gen, though exceptions can exists for niche roles.
Buying a 5th gen means we can use it for more decades.
After 2050, continue using rafale will be equivalent of using mig 21 right now no matter how much it's upgraded.

I'm referring to the TTSL of existing Russian FA. That they have a notoriously shorter lifespan as compared to western FAs is not conjecture , it's a fact.

Besides we're inducting the Mk-2 in the 2030s apart from 200 nos Mk-1a . All these are expected to serve for at least 3 decades if not more .

Are you aware of the OPEX of 5th Gen FA ? You can probably maintain 5 squadrons of 4.5 Gen FA at the cost of maintaining 1 squadron of 5th Gen FA.

So I really don't know what's the point you're making.

FOC depends on requirements of airforce.
J20 got foc before f35, f35 even without foc is multirole capable while j20 even after foc is only air to air Capable, it is only now chinese are making it multirole.

What ? Who says the J-20 has got the FOC ? They've been fitted with the WS-15 TF just a couple of years back much like the Su-57 was equipped with the Izdeliye 30 TFs . It's still being tested with these new TFs.

We need a 5th Gen Air Superiority & Air Strike FA. Right now the Rafale fits the bill. The F-35 would be ideal but as of now their order book is full plus with the kind of strings attached they come with it's not worth the effort.

I'n it's current configuration su57 is already integrated with.
K77m(bvr), r74m2(wvr), izdelyie 810( awacs killers), means su57 is fully air to air Capable, will only need to integrate domestic missiles, like how we are integrating them with tejas, su30mki right now, the same integration we will have to do with rafale.

Su57 is also integrated with
Kh 38m, kh 35 U, kh 58usk, kh 69
Which means su57 is also anti ship, anti radiation and anti surface Capable.

So it's already multirole right now, the only thing missing for foc is al51 which is in final stages of testing, and as said before even with al41 it's far surpasses rafale.

You highly underestimate how ready su57, it is already a fully multirole production aircraft, waiting for an engine upgrade.
It's no different than su30mki waiting for engine upgrade.

You need to convince the IAF of your argument not me. Up until now there's no indication the IAF is interested in the Su-57 whereas we've plenty of indications they're interested in more Rafales.

And I'd trust the IAF on their judgement for they've plenty of experience in dealing with the Russians , know what the Su-57 is capable of & also the Rafales.

I would argue that su57 with al51 even with our own avionics integrated like Virupaksha
can start delivery by 2030, and rafale won't start delivery before 2028-2030.

There you go again. The Virupaksha is still under testing. The Super Sukhoi upgrades is expected to begin in 2030-32 & go on for 8 years for only 80 odd FAs .

And you're proposing we fit in the Virupaksha onto the Su-57 when we don't even know whether what the Russians have fitted in is good enough for the job or whether they'd agree to us fitting in the Virupaksha.

What you're proposing is the MKI ization of the Su-57 which as I've pointed out in my previous post will be once the VKS has certified the Su-57 FOC which should be closer to 2030 & then we'd get into the act assuming we're interested with the entire process taking us a good 10 years if not more.

That issue being resolved by 2030s, is your speculation, acting on it as a fact will be just stupid.

So what dates are you proposing for FOC for the Su-57 which got the Izdeliye 30 only around 2023 ?

Another thing is Russians will be more willing to share more tot and more local production than France ever will, and tot of su57 will be more useful than tot of rafale for future projects.

I doubt we're at the stage wherein which we need ToT from the Russians whereas we definitely need mfg ToT from the French coz our R&D has reached at least European standards or is within sniffing distance of them .

The LCA Mk-2 will see a lot of tech which the Rafales we've gotten has which is F3R standards & is definitely more advanced than its counterpart the J-39 Gripen E.

What you're referring to may have been true in the late 2000s when we signed the JV with Russia for joint development of the Su-57 / FGFA.

Russians will also be more open to customization of su57 , just like they are more open to customization and domestic upgrades of su30mki.
France on the other hand will never be as open.

I don't think you understand the emphasis on time & the fact that this particular requirement is ONLY a China specific requirement that I'm stressing. Our war with China will be over this time in 2035 one way or another.

All these pie in the skies we're discussing here & the IAF is discussing with the MoD is of little use if the FAs we're thinking of procuring won't arrive within 3 years and the only FA which fits the bill as of today is the Rafale.

Dassault can STILL accommodate us if we move fast and we can have at least 36 nos before or by 2030 as well as the 26 nos the IN has finalized on Dassault. Everything else is a waste of time as of now.

 

[Azaad]

The countries buying equipment put people with decades of military experience in charge, marketing BM or missile tech will not help in other areas, that's why nobody fuckin does it.

What ? BMs , CMs upto 300 kms doesn't fall under the prohibited category of the MTCR. Those were on display at the exhibition too apart from the HGVs , Agni , BM-03 , NASAMs , Helina , artillery , armoured vehicles , radar systems , the whole shebang.

Except the Agni , HGV & the BM-03 all the other systems if not most of them are exports worthy. As of now all these countries are flocking to RoK or Turkiye to fulfill these & other requirements which could be a function of to begin with reach which means either those cos have an office in these countries or / a military attache in their embassies there , better' marketing , better presence at international exhibitions & so on .

We've none of the above & the GoI is having us believe we're doing great things in exports which is happening more out of default than design. The least we could do was to have DRDO participate in a full fledged manner in the AI-25 for it's one of the few international defence expos we host .

 

[randombully]

I'm referring to the TTSL of existing Russian FA. That they have a notoriously shorter lifespan as compared to western FAs is not conjecture , it's a fact.

Besides we're inducting the Mk-2 in the 2030s apart from 200 nos Mk-1a . All these are expected to serve for at least 3 decades if not more .

Are you aware of the OPEX of 5th Gen FA ? You can probably maintain 5 squadrons of 4.5 Gen FA at the cost of maintaining 1 squadron of 5th Gen FA.

So I really don't know what's the point you're making.


What ? Who says the J-20 has got the FOC ? They've been fitted with the WS-15 TF just a couple of years back much like the Su-57 was equipped with the Izdeliye 30 TFs . It's still being tested with these new TFs.

We need a 5th Gen Air Superiority & Air Strike FA. Right now the Rafale fits the bill. The F-35 would be ideal but as of now their order book is full plus with the kind of strings attached they come with it's not worth the effort.



You need to convince the IAF of your argument not me. Up until now there's no indication the IAF is interested in the Su-57 whereas we've plenty of indications they're interested in more Rafales.

And I'd trust the IAF on their judgement for they've plenty of experience in dealing with the Russians , know what the Su-57 is capable of & also the Rafales.


There you go again. The Virupaksha is still under testing. The Super Sukhoi upgrades is expected to begin in 2030-32 & go on for 8 years for only 80 odd FAs .

And you're proposing we fit in the Virupaksha onto the Su-57 when we don't even know whether what the Russians have fitted in is good enough for the job or whether they'd agree to us fitting in the Virupaksha.

What you're proposing is the MKI ization of the Su-57 which as I've pointed out in my previous post will be once the VKS has certified the Su-57 FOC which should be closer to 2030 & then we'd get into the act assuming we're interested with the entire process taking us a good 10 years if not more.

So what dates are you proposing for FOC for the Su-57 which got the Izdeliye 30 only around 2023 ?

I doubt we're at the stage wherein which we need ToT from the Russians whereas we definitely need mfg ToT from the French coz our R&D has reached at least European standards or is within sniffing distance of them .

The LCA Mk-2 will see a lot of tech which the Rafales we've gotten has which is F3R standards & is definitely more advanced than its counterpart the J-39 Gripen E.

What you're referring to may have been true in the late 2000s when we signed the JV with Russia for joint development of the Su-57 / FGFA.

I don't think you understand the emphasis on time & the fact that this particular requirement is ONLY a China specific requirement that I'm stressing. Our war with China will be over this time in 2035 one way or another.

All these pie in the skies we're discussing here & the IAF is discussing with the MoD is of little use if the FAs we're thinking of procuring won't arrive within 3 years and the only FA which fits the bill as of today is the Rafale.

Dassault can STILL accommodate us if we move fast and we can have at least 36 nos before or by 2030 as well as the 26 nos the IN has finalized on Dassault. Everything else is a waste of time as of now.

I'm referring to the TTSL of existing Russian FA. That they have a notoriously shorter lifespan as compared to western FAs is not conjecture , it's a fact.

The existing russian FA you are talking is decades old tech.
The engines al31 of su30mki are later 3rd gen engine, same with engines of mig29.

Al41 of su35 and su57 already matches m88 of rafale in terms of reliability and life span while better twr than m88.

Besides we're inducting the Mk-2 in the 2030s apart from 200 nos Mk-1a . All these are expected to serve for at least 3 decades if not more .

And 5th gen ones can serve beyond 3 decades, 4-5 decades and still be relevant.
Not to mention in those 3 decades having a stealth jet is better than non stealth jet.

Are you aware of the OPEX of 5th Gen FA ? You can probably maintain 5 squadrons of 4.5 Gen FA at the cost of maintaining 1 squadron of 5th Gen FA.

What ? Who says the J-20 has got the FOC ? They've been fitted with the WS-15 TF just a couple of years back much like the Su-57 was equipped with the Izdeliye 30 TFs . It's still being tested with these new TFs.

Chinks gave it foc in 2021.
Foc is full operational clearance, means it can do every operations It was designed to do, even with worse engine.

The ws15 is more of a engine upgrade.
It's like saying su30mki is not foc certified because it uses older worse al31 engine instead of newer al41.

We need a 5th Gen Air Superiority & Air Strike FA. Right now the Rafale fits the bill

Su 57 is a 5th gen multirole( air Superiority and stRike) rafale is at most 4.5+ gen, it doesn't fit the bill of 5th gen air Superiority and strike fighter, su57 is better than it in both roles in its current configuration.

And I'd trust the IAF on their judgement for they've plenty of experience in dealing with the Russians , know what the Su-57 is capable of & also the Rafales.

If IAF genuinely beleifs rafale is better than su57 as a fighter jet, then airforce is fucked beyond saving.

There you go again. The Virupaksha is still under testing. The Super Sukhoi upgrades is expected to begin in 2030-32 & go on for 8 years for only 80 odd FAs .

And you're proposing we fit in the Virupaksha onto the Su-57 when we don't even know whether what the Russians have fitted in is good enough for the job or whether they'd agree to us fitting in the Virupaksha.

What you're proposing is the MKI ization of the Su-57 which as I've pointed out in my previous post will be once the VKS has certified the Su-57 FOC which should be closer to 2030 & then we'd get into the act assuming we're interested with the entire process taking us a good 10 years if not more.

If time is that much of the essence then we can just buy the current varient as it is, the current varient with al41 is already better than Rafale
Also rafale also doesn't have foc by that logic as rafale F5 is under development will only start delivery beyond 2030+, rafale is work in progress.
That's how dumb that foc argument is.
Current f4 varient of rafale is not capable of loyal wingman operations, f5 varient will be, su57 currently is capable of it( tho Russian okhotnic wingman is not)

So what dates are you proposing for FOC for the Su-57 which got the Izdeliye 30 only around 2023 ?

Don't know, tho I'm fine with current varient of su57 too Over rafale.
Tho I do propose foc of rafale to be granted beyond 2030+ when f5 varient will finally come, currently rafale is work in progress, as you said before we shouldn't get a not fully developed jet.

I doubt we're at the stage wherein which we need ToT from the Russians whereas we definitely need mfg ToT from the French coz our R&D has reached at least European standards or is within sniffing distance of them .

The LCA Mk-2 will see a lot of tech which the Rafales we've gotten has which is F3R standards & is definitely more advanced than its counterpart the J-39 Gripen E.

What you're referring to may have been true in the late 2000s when we signed the JV with Russia for joint development of the Su-57 / FGFA.

Russians have a working 5th gen, least stealthy of 5th gen but still a working and in production 5th gen with full multirole capabilities, we do not.
We have made leaps in progress and match Russia in lot and surpass them in few areas, but we're not ahead of russia in fighter jets.
That's the reality.

European standards? What standard?
You need to fucking understand the "latest "stuff of russia is not lower standard in terms of quality than Europeans,
Russian latest stuff is "technological" inferior to americans, but neither technological or qualitatively inferior to Europeans, older Russian stuff definitely is lower quality and russia uses lots of older stuff and relatively less latest stuff in service, but latest stuff qualitatively matches europe, just like rest of the world if you continue to put money in development quality improve, it's not some western magic.

don't think you understand the emphasis on time & the fact that this particular requirement is ONLY a China specific requirement that I'm stressing. Our war with China will be over this time in 2035 one way or another.

In that case just buying the current varient of su57 should be faster as unlike rafale whose order books are full, su57 is waiting for orders.

All these pie in the skies we're discussing here & the IAF is discussing with the MoD is of little use if the FAs we're thinking of procuring won't arrive within 3 years and the only FA which fits the bill as of today is the Rafale.

Rafale f4 ain't coming in 3 years, the only way for it to come is for production line to set up in india as production is full, plus it's work in progress F5 varient is in development, it will get foc in 2030+ when rafale f5 is developed, we will be buying a wip aircraft.
With su57 with al41 we can get initial lot directly from Russia with 3 years while domestic production lines are being set up, maybe if al51 I operationalised later varients could be fitted with it.

Dassault can STILL accommodate us if we move fast

Russia "will easily" accommodate us.

 

[randombully]

What ? BMs , CMs upto 300 kms doesn't fall under the prohibited category of the MTCR. Those were on display at the exhibition too apart from the HGVs , Agni , BM-03 , NASAMs , Helina , artillery , armoured vehicles , radar systems , the whole shebang.

Except the Agni , HGV & the BM-03 all the other systems if not most of them are exports worthy. As of now all these countries are flocking to RoK or Turkiye to fulfill these & other requirements which could be a function of to begin with reach which means either those cos have an office in these countries or / a military attache in their embassies there , better' marketing , better presence at international exhibitions & so on .

We've none of the above & the GoI is having us believe we're doing great things in exports which is happening more out of default than design. The least we could do was to have DRDO participate in a full fledged manner in the AI-25 for it's one of the few international defence expos we host .

Your point was advertising " startegic ballistic missiles" to help in sales in other missiles and systems, and it doesn't work that way.
As for missiles within mtcr requirement, we already advertise them and looking for customers, like brahmos, Akash, etc
And other systems like radars, artillary, APC are all being advertised and offered by respective parties.

 

[Azaad]

The existing russian FA you are talking is decades old tech.
The engines al31 of su30mki are later 3rd gen engine, same with engines of mig29.

So what exactly prompts you think that the new TFs they've come up with meets western standards or even betters it in terms of TTSL ?

Al41 of su35 and su57 already matches m88 of rafale in terms of reliability and life span while better twr than m88.

Says who ? You? On what basis ? I ask for the AL-41 has just made its appearance . Even the Russians wouldn't know the exact TTSL irrespective what they claim or portray in the media .

And 5th gen ones can serve beyond 3 decades, 4-5 decades and still be relevant.
Not to mention in those 3 decades having a stealth jet is better than non stealth jet.

Yes & which stealth FA are you proposing keeping in mind we need it for a war against China & we need it before 2030 ?

Chinks gave it foc in 2021.
Foc is full operational clearance, means it can do every operations It was designed to do, even with worse engine.

I'd like to see some citations . Not that it matters coming as it does from the Chinese past masters at propaganda. But nevertheless a citation helps.

The ws15 is more of a engine upgrade.
It's like saying su30mki is not foc certified because it uses older worse al31 engine instead of newer al41.

So you mean to say the system doesn't require a certification if a new component is introduced especially if it is as vital as a power plant that literally powers the FA ?

What sort of stupid logic are you employing to put your point across ? Are you arguing for the sake it ?

Su 57 is a 5th gen multirole( air Superiority and stRike) rafale is at most 4.5+ gen, it doesn't fit the bill of 5th gen air Superiority and strike fighter, su57 is better than it in both roles in its current configuration.

It's a LO FA without being a VLO FA. That's the long & short of it. It's still under testing . It's NOT a proven platform.

Rafale is a proven platform . Its SPECTRA suite is what is its USP . Besides the IAF are already using it & are impressed enough by it to want it to fulfill their MRFA requirements. Which part of it didn't you understand ?

If IAF genuinely beleifs rafale is better than su57 as a fighter jet, then airforce is fucked beyond saving.

The very fact that you don't hear the IAF speak about the Su-57 should tell you a tale of its own unless you require them to send you a signed affidavit.

If time is that much of the essence then we can just buy the current varient as it is, the current varient with al41 is already better than Rafale

I don't know quite how old you are but by making the same point repeatedly without any refences or citations neither are you going to convince me nor anybody else out here & certainly not the IAF ?

And if buying the Rafales were so easy we could have done it by now isn't it so as to prevent us not having this conversation ?

Also rafale also doesn't have foc by that logic as rafale F5 is under development will only start delivery beyond 2030+, rafale is work in progress.
That's how dumb that foc argument is.
Current f4 varient of rafale is not capable of loyal wingman operations, f5 varient will be, su57 currently is capable of it( tho Russian okhotnic wingman is not)

Yes , once the F5 standards are adopted the Rafales will undergo re certification. Same would be true for once our MKIs undergo Super Sukhoi upgrades. Aren't you aware of these bare basics ? How old are you anyway?

The issue here is the FA . Not the wingman . It's only once the FA is evaluated that extraneous issues like wingman are looked into . Is it important ? Yes. Is it a deal breaker ? No .

Don't know, tho I'm fine with current varient of su57 too Over rafale.
Tho I do propose foc of rafale to be granted beyond 2030+ when f5 varient will finally come, currently rafale is work in progress, as you said before we shouldn't get a not fully developed jet.

The F5 is an upgradation of the Rafales which has already been certified every time it undergoes an upgrade. I get that you're a great fanboy of the Su-57 . But as of now it's WiP. Just like the F-35. Does that mean both can't fight a war ? No they can . But as opposed to the Rafales they're not proven platforms which means there's a degree of risk in deploying them whether minor or major.

That's the whole purpose or FOC certification & the difference between a mature platform & a relatively newer one like say the LCA Mk-1 which we've had for nearly a decade now.

Russians have a working 5th gen, least stealthy of 5th gen but still a working and in production 5th gen with full multirole capabilities, we do not.
We have made leaps in progress and match Russia in lot and surpass them in few areas, but we're not ahead of russia in fighter jets.
That's the reality.

Russia is a declining power whichever way you dice it . We're a rising power. They're still massively behind in electronics & avionics to the extent that practically all their SMC requirements are imported . We'd be mfg them in house shortly.

European standards? What standard?
You need to fucking understand the "latest "stuff of russia is not lower standard in terms of quality than Europeans,

I think I'm wasting my time on you if you're arguing Russian FAs have a better TTSL than western FAs. That was the crux of the argument. Performance wise they have an edge in certain areas like the aerodynamics of Russian FAs are definitely better than it's counterparts but that's a function of design philosophy not technology. There's a big difference between the two.

If the west chose they could match the Russians in every such aerodynamic quality but they have different needs to fulfill from their FAs .

Russian latest stuff is "technological" inferior to americans, but neither technological or qualitatively inferior to Europeans, older Russian stuff definitely is lower quality and russia uses lots of older stuff and relatively less latest stuff in service, but latest stuff qualitatively matches europe, just like rest of the world if you continue to put money in development quality improve, it's not some western magic

Let's see. The latest FAs from Russia are the Su-35s which in itself is an upgrade of the Su-30 . On all parameters it doesn't compare well to the Rafales & the Eurofighters which is the reason the IAF hasn't gone for it nor was it included in the MRFA tender for the tech specs were deliberately drawn to keep Su-27 & it's various derivatives like the Su -30 & the Su-35 out.

Aerodynamics wise & in terms of kinematics it may score over the European FAs but besides that it has little to offer. It's turn around time like the MKI is low so is its TTSL . Rafales turn around time is a few hours which means it can fly 4-5 sorties a day which neither can the MKI do nor the Su-35 . In fact most if not all Russian FAs have a very high turn around time which means it needs more servicing post every sortie as compared to any European FA.

That's just the way the Russians & Europeans have built their FAs which once again is a function of their design philosophy. The Russians believe in mass ( quantity has a quality of its own ) & the Europeans believe in class . As of now the latter's design philosophy is not just multi role but omni role FAs. As of now none of the Russian FAs are omni role. The Russians claim the Su-57 is. Whether it actually is so is something time will tell.

In that case just buying the current varient of su57 should be faster as unlike rafale whose order books are full, su57 is waiting for orders.

Did you forget training logistics tactics familiarisation with the Rafales etc ? We seem to be going around in circles .

Rafale f4 ain't coming in 3 years, the only way for it to come is for production line to set up in india as production is full, plus it's work in progress F5 varient is in development, it will get foc in 2030+ when rafale f5 is developed, we will be buying a wip aircraft.
With su57 with al41 we can get initial lot directly from Russia with 3 years while domestic production lines are being set up, maybe if al51 I operationalised later varients could be fitted with it.

Rafale F4 is already out. They're building it to F4 specs for the UAE. If we were to buy the Rafale without much negotiations we'd have to buy the F3R standards the same as the previous lot.

In my conversations with French members on Strat Front one of whom was an ex senior functionary in Dassault , the latter can churn out 4 FAs in a month if need be meaning they can have 4 lines at Merignac . Right now they're juggling between 2-3 lines.

It seems clear you're a Su-57 fanboy & are arguing from the same PoV. You're also repeating a lot of your arguments . Your foundational knowledge is questionable & many a times you're arguing for the sake of it .

Consider this my last response to you on this topic.

 

[randombully]

So what exactly prompts you think that the new TFs they've come up with meets western standards or even betters it in terms of TTSL ?

Says who ? You? On what basis ? I ask for the AL-41 has just made its appearance . Even the Russians wouldn't know the exact TTSL irrespective what they claim or portray in the media .

Yes & which stealth FA are you proposing keeping in mind we need it for a war against China & we need it before 2030 ?



I'd like to see some citations . Not that it matters coming as it does from the Chinese past masters at propaganda. But nevertheless a citation helps.

So you mean to say the system doesn't require a certification if a new component is introduced especially if it is as vital as a power plant that literally powers the FA ?

What sort of stupid logic are you employing to put your point across ? Are you arguing for the sake it ?



It's a LO FA without being a VLO FA. That's the long & short of it. It's still under testing . It's NOT a proven platform.

Rafale is a proven platform . Its SPECTRA suite is what is its USP . Besides the IAF are already using it & are impressed enough by it to want it to fulfill their MRFA requirements. Which part of it didn't you understand ?


The very fact that you don't hear the IAF speak about the Su-57 should tell you a tale of its own unless you require them to send you a signed affidavit.



I don't know quite how old you are but by making the same point repeatedly without any refences or citations neither are you going to convince me nor anybody else out here & certainly not the IAF ?

And if buying the Rafales were so easy we could have done it by now isn't it so as to prevent us not having this conversation ?


Yes , once the F5 standards are adopted the Rafales will undergo re certification. Same would be true for once our MKIs undergo Super Sukhoi upgrades. Aren't you aware of these bare basics ? How old are you anyway?

The issue here is the FA . Not the wingman . It's only once the FA is evaluated that extraneous issues like wingman are looked into . Is it important ? Yes. Is it a deal breaker ? No .



The F5 is an upgradation of the Rafales which has already been certified every time it undergoes an upgrade. I get that you're a great fanboy of the Su-57 . But as of now it's WiP. Just like the F-35. Does that mean both can't fight a war ? No they can . But as opposed to the Rafales they're not proven platforms which means there's a degree of risk in deploying them whether minor or major.

That's the whole purpose or FOC certification & the difference between a mature platform & a relatively newer one like say the LCA Mk-1 which we've had for nearly a decade now.


Russia is a declining power whichever way you dice it . We're a rising power. They're still massively behind in electronics & avionics to the extent that practically all their SMC requirements are imported . We'd be mfg them in house shortly.



I think I'm wasting my time on you if you're arguing Russian FAs have a better TTSL than western FAs. That was the crux of the argument. Performance wise they have an edge in certain areas like the aerodynamics of Russian FAs are definitely better than it's counterparts but that's a function of design philosophy not technology. There's a big difference between the two.

If the west chose they could match the Russians in every such aerodynamic quality but they have different needs to fulfill from their FAs .


Let's see. The latest FAs from Russia are the Su-35s which in itself is an upgrade of the Su-30 . On all parameters it doesn't compare well to the Rafales & the Eurofighters which is the reason the IAF hasn't gone for it nor was it included in the MRFA tender for the tech specs were deliberately drawn to keep Su-27 & it's various derivatives like the Su -30 & the Su-35 out.

Aerodynamics wise & in terms of kinematics it may score over the European FAs but besides that it has little to offer. It's turn around time like the MKI is low so is its TTSL . Rafales turn around time is a few hours which means it can fly 4-5 sorties a day which neither can the MKI do nor the Su-35 . In fact most if not all Russian FAs have a very high turn around time which means it needs more servicing post every sortie as compared to any European FA.

That's just the way the Russians & Europeans have built their FAs which once again is a function of their design philosophy. The Russians believe in mass ( quantity has a quality of its own ) & the Europeans believe in class . As of now the latter's design philosophy is not just multi role but omni role FAs. As of now none of the Russian FAs are omni role. The Russians claim the Su-57 is. Whether it actually is so is something time will tell.



Did you forget training logistics tactics familiarisation with the Rafales etc ? We seem to be going around in circles .



Rafale F4 is already out. They're building it to F4 specs for the UAE. If we were to buy the Rafale without much negotiations we'd have to buy the F3R standards the same as the previous lot.

In my conversations with French members on Strat Front one of whom was an ex senior functionary in Dassault , the latter can churn out 4 FAs in a month if need be meaning they can have 4 lines at Merignac . Right now they're juggling between 2-3 lines.

It seems clear you're a Su-57 fanboy & are arguing from the same PoV. You're also repeating a lot of your arguments . Your foundational knowledge is questionable & many a times you're arguing for the sake of it .

Consider this my last response to you on this topic.

"Design philosophy of rafale is not multirole but omnirole"

Hampe daya kariye bhai, aur kisi bhi fighter discussion me aaj ke baad bhaag na le kiypya, Vinti Karte hai apse.

Again regardless of whatever you beleif the current varient of su57 with alf41 is certified and in production with multirole capabilities and is better than omni rafale f4.

As for su57 not being a VLO but only LO

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Also the af41 in su35 and su57 is not latest Russian engine, it is already in production for almost a decade.


And again,vinti hai fighter discussion me bhaag na le

 

[Azaad]

"Design philosophy of rafale is not multirole but omnirole"

This is what I wrote in the previous post

That's just the way the Russians & Europeans have built their FAs which once again is a function of their design philosophy. The Russians believe in mass ( quantity has a quality of its own ) & the Europeans believe in class . As of now the latter's design philosophy is not just multi role but omni role FAs. As of now none of the Russian FAs are omni role. The Russians claim the Su-57 is. Whether it actually is so is something time will tell.

What did you understand from the above ?


This is the reason I said your foundational knowledge is questionable which in terms you can understand means you don't know much & the worst part is you don't know you don't know much

Google Search

The Rafale, a fully “Omnirole” fighter, is available in three variants:

• the Rafale C single-seater operated from land bases,
• the Rafale M single-seater for carrier operations,
• the Rafale B two-seater flown from land bases.

The Rafale, a fully optimized airframe

The Rafale, a fully “omnirole” plane, comes in three variants: the Rafale C single-seater, Rafale M single-seater for carrier operations and Rafale B two-seater.

www.dassault-aviation.com

Hampe daya kariye bhai, aur kisi bhi fighter discussion me aaj ke baad bhaag na le kiypya, Vinti Karte hai apse.

Again regardless of whatever you beleif the current varient of su57 with alf41 is certified and in production with multirole capabilities and is better than omni rafale f4.

As for su57 not being a VLO but only LO

Su-57 Radar scattering simulation

Introduction Su-57 is the first aircraft in Russian military service designed with stealth technology, it is intended to replace Su-27/30/35 family and server as the Russian answer to the American …

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Conclusion of the very paper you quoted.

In conclusion, while Su-57 is likely the most agile fifth generation fighter till date, its VLO characteristic leave much to be desired.

Also the af41 in su35 and su57 is not latest Russian engine, it is already in production for almost a decade.

AL-41 had the first flight in 2000 after which the program was shut down . It was revived to power both the Su-35 & later the Su-57.

The Su-35 made its first flight in 2007-08 with trials accompanying production in what is known as concurrent production & the Su-35 S received it's FOC in 2018 , just 7 years from today & a full 9-10 yrs after the First Flight.

This means they're still evaluating the TF . They must know by now the MTBO & the TTSL of the FA but this information hasn't been made public yet.


Jawab aisa de sakta hoon ki agli baar 4 martaba sochoge quote karne ke pehle . Tere kacche umr ka lihaaz kar raha hoon . Galat nahin samajhna aur na galat fayda uthana.

And again,vinti hai fighter discussion me bhaag na le

 

[randombully]

This is what I wrote in the previous post

What did you understand from the above ?


This is the reason I said your foundational knowledge is questionable which in terms you can understand means you don't know much & the worst part is you don't know you don't know much

Google Search

The Rafale, a fully optimized airframe

The Rafale, a fully “omnirole” plane, comes in three variants: the Rafale C single-seater, Rafale M single-seater for carrier operations and Rafale B two-seater.

www.dassault-aviation.com

Conclusion of the very paper you quoted.



AL-41 had the first flight in 2000 after which the program was shut down . It was revived to power both the Su-35 & later the Su-57.

The Su-35 made its first flight in 2007-08 with trials accompanying production in what is known as concurrent production & the Su-35 S received it's FOC in 2018 , just 7 years from today & a full 9-10 yrs after the First Flight.

This means they're still evaluating the TF . They must know by now the MTBO & the TTSL of the FA but this information hasn't been made public yet.


Jawab aisa de sakta hoon ki agli baar 4 martaba sochoge quote karne ke pehle . Tere kacche umr ka lihaaz kar raha hoon . Galat nahin samajhna aur na galat fayda uthana.

In that same paper, there was a comment by the guy who created the paper, the comment whose screenshot I shared in previous reply.
It's a least stealthy vlo aircrafts, but still a vlo aircraft.
It's not a LO aircrafts loke superhornet blk 3, rafale etc.

You said " rafale design Philosophy is omni role not multirole" .
You don't need to say anymore.
Please stop arguing in aeronautics discussion, vinti hai apse.

Your fucking fully optimised rafale airframe is not capable of awacs killers role, with radar range limited to only 200km due to small size of its nose cone hence small radar, and not capable of SEAD/Anti radiation role either.
Su57, f15, j16, j20 etc are all capable of both
Su57 can do " every" thing that rafale can do and even do things rafale can't.
Like su57 is not as stealthy as f35,j20 is not avionics wide sophisticated as f35, but it's miles better than "sophisticated omni role rafale".


As long as you guys Don't understand what foc is, and believe rafale f4 is better than current su57 with al41, you Don't need to say anymore.

Also do you know, su57, j20, j16, j15, eurofighter can use their own radar to track a corvette size ship at 300+km, but the great superior omni role rafale can't.



It's fucking frustrating just overhyped rafale is, it's a good 4.5+ gen aircraft
But for a aircraft not able to do awacs/tanker killer role, not able to do SEAD missions, not able to do medium range anti shipping using its own radar to be called "omni" role is lie.
Not to mention omni is just a fancy word baguette people invented because they didn't like the sound of multi role

 

[Azaad]

In that same paper, there was a comment by the guy who created the paper, the comment whose screenshot I shared in previous reply.
It's a least stealthy vlo aircrafts, but still a vlo aircraft.
It's not a LO aircrafts loke superhornet blk 3, rafale etc.

Yeah , a random guy making two different assessments in the same article he wrote with one in the comments section. Tells me all I need to know .

Super hornet is LO ? Good , I learnt something knew today.

You said " rafale design Philosophy is omni role not multirole" .
You don't need to say anymore.
Please stop arguing in aeronautics discussion, vinti hai apse.

Yes , it's omni role . I've quoted from Dassault's site . Didn't you read it ? Besides , do you know the difference between omni role & multi role ? I don't think you do .

Your fucking fully optimised rafale airframe is not capable of awacs killers role, with radar range limited to only 200km due to small size of its nose cone hence small radar, and not capable of SEAD/Anti radiation role either.

It's not my fucking Rafale , kid . It's Dassault's unlike your mother fucking Su-57 . Got it ?

The radar is more than decade old due for a GaN upgradation which'd precede the F5 & is expected in the next 2-3 years.

ISE enables our Rafales to carry SAAW , Rudram etc . The French design philosophy worked differently . Their theory was SPECTRA would cancel the radar signal enabling them to get close enough to knock off the radars. That's how the Rafales were able to conduct SEAD / DEAD missions in Libya . Can you get me any such examples of the Su-57 & F-35 ?

Given new improvements in radar developments , they're now coming up with an ARM . Whether it precedes the F5 or it is part of it , I'm unaware of the developments in this matter. Once again this is what the French members informed me .

Su57, f15, j16, j20 etc are all capable of both

Su57 can do every thing that rafale can even and thing rafale can't.

Who denied it ? I'm just saying it's WiP & an unproven platform . You want me to type this in any other language in case you don't understand English , I can oblige.

Like su57 is not as stealthy as f35,j20 is not avionics wide sophisticated as f35, but it's miles better than "sophisticated omni role rafale".

Yup. Since you said the Su-57 is better than the Rafale I accept it at face value . Now go on & convince the IAF of your choice & tell them how did you arrive at your conclusion.

As long as you guys Don't understand what foc is, and believe rafale f4 is better than current su57 with al41, you Don't need to say anymore.

Yes , I think it's best for everyone concerned especially you if you put this matter behind you & move on .

 

[randombully]

Yeah , a random guy making two different assessments in the same article he wrote with one in the comments section. Tells me all I need to know .

Super hornet is LO ? Good , I learnt something knew today.



Yes , it's omni role . I've quoted from Dassault's site . Didn't you read it ? Besides , do you know the difference between omni role & multi role ? I don't think you do .


It's not my fucking Rafale , kid . It's Dassault's unlike your mother fucking Su-57 . Got it ?

The radar is more than decade old due for a GaN upgradation which'd precede the F5 & is expected in the next 2-3 years.

ISE enables our Rafales to carry SAAW , Rudram etc . The French design philosophy worked differently . Their theory was SPECTRA would cancel the radar signal enabling them to get close enough to knock off the radars. That's how the Rafales were able to conduct SEAD / DEAD missions in Libya . Can you get me any such examples of the Su-57 & F-35 ?

Given new improvements in radar developments , they're now coming up with an ARM . Whether it precedes the F5 or it is part of it , I'm unaware of the developments in this matter. Once again this is what the French members informed me .




Who denied it ? I'm just saying it's WiP & an unproven platform . You want me to type this in any other language in case you don't understand English , I can oblige.


Yup. Since you said the Su-57 is better than the Rafale I accept it at face value . Now go on & convince the IAF of your choice & tell them how did you arrive at your conclusion.



Yes , I think it's best for everyone concerned especially you if you put this matter behind you & move on .

All right what's the difference between omni and multirole?
And no matter what GAN you put that small nose cone is a hurdle.
Again the wip is the newer varient of su57 with al51 engine.
Wip is the twin seater su57.
Current su57 with al41 is not wip.
Just like rafale f5 is wip, but f4 is not.


Tho ultimately you did finally agree that su57 is better, still some sense left


As for that assisment, his assessment is same in both.
Su 57 is stealthy enough to be called a vlo aircraft, but compared to other vlo aircrafts( f22, f35 even j20) it's stealth leaves lot be desired.
But compared LO aircrafts(in clean configuration) like rafale, superhornet, tejas mk2, su57 is miles more stealthier.

The current blk3 superhornet has one of the lowest if not the lowest frontal rcs out of all non stealth jets, the clean superhornet's frontal rcs is in range of 0.1m2-0.2m2
This is also reason boing offered a stealth pod to carry missiles for super hornet.
And not only frontal rcs, in frontal rcs rafale and tejas mk2 can match it, but super hornet's low rcs features extend in sides, top, bottom, back everywhere.
Not other non stealth airframes is as stealthy from sides, back as superhornet.
And in terms of IR stealth, it can rival f35( except from back)
With that all said all these features does not provide much advantage over jets like rafale, typhoons as they are also decently LO and ultimately all non stealth jets will carry weapons externally.
The stealth pod was rejected by US navy

 

[Azaad]

All right what's the difference between omni and multirole?

That's what I thought that you didn't know the difference between omni role & multi role , yet you kept arguing.

Multi role refers to the different roles a FA can perform like air domination , air superiority , CAP , air strike meaning air to ground , deep pentration strike etc.

However in the past all such multi role FAs could only execute one such role at any given time which meant if a party of 6 nos Mirage 2000 was tasked with say striking Balakote , 4 x Mirage 2000s would be armed only with WVR & BVR AAMs whereas the strike payload would be carried by only 2 nos Mirage 2000s. This was done because the MC - Mission Computer could be programmed to carry out only one given task at a time .

Omni role means such FA were designed to perform multiple roles at the same time. Eurofighter & Gripens are omni role too. The MKI is not & neither is the Su-35. The Su-57 may well be omni role but that's only natural & to be expected. However let's wait for confirmation which'd come in due course of time.

And no matter what GAN you put that small nose cone is a hurdle.

You seem to be under the impression only the hardware matters & not the software to tell the target from the noise / back ground clutter which is where the real mystery sauce of the AESA radar lies.

Again the wip is the newer varient of su57 with al51 engine.
Wip is the twin seater su57.
Current su57 with al41 is not wip.
Just like rafale f5 is wip, but f4 is not.

I don't think you've understood the entire PAKFA program. The real deal was always the second stage or the Su-57 which is being tested with the Izdeliye 30 or 117S TF.

Just like the RoK KAI -21 Boromae Project is split into 2 phases where the first phase will be a 4.75 / quasi 5th Gen FA while the real deal would be the upcoming 5th Gen FA which is still under development aka WiP.

So it really doesn't matter if the first stage of the Su-57 is FOC or not since we're not looking out for it either way.

Trust that clarifies , kid.

Tho ultimately you did finally agree that su57 is better, still some sense left

Did I ? Good . Now go pursuade the IAF.

 

[randombully]

That's what I thought that you didn't know the difference between omni role & multi role , yet you kept arguing.

Multi role refers to the different roles a FA can perform like air domination , air superiority , CAP , air strike meaning air to ground , deep pentration strike etc.

However in the past all such multi role FAs could only execute one such role at any given time which meant if a party of 6 nos Mirage 2000 was tasked with say striking Balakote , 4 x Mirage 2000s would be armed only with WVR & BVR AAMs whereas the strike payload would be carried by only 2 nos Mirage 2000s. This was done because the MC - Mission Computer could be programmed to carry out only one given task at a time .

Omni role means such FA were designed to perform multiple roles at the same time. Eurofighter & Gripens are omni role too. The MKI is not & neither is the Su-35. The Su-57 may well be omni role but that's only natural & to be expected. However let's wait for confirmation which'd come in due course of time.




You seem to be under the impression only the hardware matters & not the software to tell the target from the noise / back ground clutter which is where the real mystery sauce of the AESA radar lies.



I don't think you've understood the entire PAKFA program. The real deal was always the second stage or the Su-57 which is being tested with the Izdeliye 30 or 117S TF.

Just like the RoK KAI -21 Boromae Project is split into 2 phases where the first phase will be a 4.75 / quasi 5th Gen FA while the real deal would be the upcoming 5th Gen FA which is still under development aka WiP.

So it really doesn't matter if the first stage of the Su-57 is FOC or not since we're not looking out for it either way.

Trust that clarifies , kid.

Did I ? Good . Now go pursuade the IAF.

You see, the rest of the world except baugette people still uses "multirole for" eurofighter, gripen, f35 etc.

No matter how good the software, ain't gonna Overcome size limits.
There's a reason chinks went with 2000trm in j20, US with 1600+ in f35.
Other countries can do software too, but they also do hardware too along with gan
France is limited in terms of size increase which is limit software ain't gonna overcome.
More trm and more power not only provide greater range, but also greater detection and tracking range of same rcs target.

Even if the real deal is not here. The smaller deal( al 41 su 57) is already better than rafale.

As for persuading IAF? That's ruskies job.

My goal was to inform about the truth of su57 being a choice capabilities,tot, customizablity and long term future wise.

 

[Azaad]

You see, the rest of the world except baugette people still uses "multirole for" eurofighter, gripen, f35 etc.

Leaving the nomenclature part aside which is a matter of semantics , the question should be can the Rafale , Eurofighter , Gripen , F-35 perform more than one role in a mission ? The answer is yes it can . Can their analogues in the VKS like the Su-30 M2 & the Su-35S perform such a role ? The answer is no , they cannot .

Only the Su-57 can perform such a role though this is more speculation since it's not been proven but is a logical progression & expected of a Russian 5th Gen FA .

No matter how good the software, ain't gonna Overcome size limits.
There's a reason chinks went with 2000trm in j20, US with 1600+ in f35.
Other countries can do software too, but they also do hardware too along with gan
France is limited in terms of size increase which is limit software ain't gonna overcome.
More trm and more power not only provide greater range, but also greater detection and tracking range of same rcs target.

You seem to be under the impression that TRMs can only be located in the nose. F5 upgrades comes with DAS & EODAS with GaN antennas. Plus a brand new TF.

Even if the real deal is not here. The smaller deal( al 41 su 57) is already better than rafale.

The 1st stage Su-57 will eventually be upgraded to 2nd stage Su-57 . Rafales will be continuously upgraded up until 2050 & beyond. The French plan to retain it upto 2060-65. There's already talk of F6 package specifications being drawn up.

As for persuading IAF? That's ruskies job.

So far they haven't been successful. So why are you breaking your head here & eating up bandwidth ? Bring it up when there's credible news the IAF is in discussions with the Russians for the Su-57.

My goal was to inform about the truth of su57 being a choice capabilities,tot, customizablity and long term future wise.

Thanks but no thanks , this information is available on the net.

 

[randombully]

Leaving the nomenclature part aside which is a matter of semantics , the question should be can the Rafale , Eurofighter , Gripen , F-35 perform more than one role in a mission ? The answer is yes it can . Can their analogues in the VKS like the Su-30 M2 & the Su-35S perform such a role ? The answer is no , they cannot .

Only the Su-57 can perform such a role though this is more speculation since it's not been proven but is a logical progression & expected of a Russian 5th Gen FA .



You seem to be under the impression that TRMs can only be located in the nose. F5 upgrades comes with DAS & EODAS with GaN antennas. Plus a brand new TF.



The 1st stage Su-57 will eventually be upgraded to 2nd stage Su-57 . Rafales will be continuously upgraded up until 2050 & beyond. The French plan to retain it upto 2060-65. There's already talk of F6 package specifications being drawn up.


So far they haven't been successful. So why are you breaking your head here & eating up bandwidth ? Bring it up when there's credible news the IAF is in discussions with the Russians for the Su-57.


Thanks but no thanks , this information is available on the net.

Yes their russian analogous can.
Here's a pic below of su35 carrying air to air, air to surface/Anti ship missiles and wing tip jammers in the same mission.
Like seriously that's basic stuff for modern fighter jets.
Arguing with you feels and more pathetic.

DAS( distributed aperture system) and EODAS( electronic optical distributed aperture system, basically irst+DAS) are IR( infra red system) why the fuck will they come with GAN antennas?
Whyyyy the fuck an Infrared system have gan antennas? Does fucking irst have gan or gas trm?
Bhai maaf karde galti hogayi tere se argue Kar liye hum.


And that 1st of su57 is better than future rafale f5, because it already has more powerful radar, DAS( not as as goods as DAS of f35 and not as integrated), su57 right now also has DIRCM that rafale f4 lacks.
Along with being a stealth jet.


Bhai tu womao chinks se lad, aeronautics me mat ghus, vinti hai

 

[mist_consecutive]

More details pls?

I have heard army will sign QRSAM contract soon

plus in AeroIndia 25 many radars were revealed.

Aside from these two nothing much but I get updates from defense bros i've followed on twitter and strategicfront some times.

> 95% of Airbases & critical installations have 3+ layered ADs if not 100%.

Additional Anti-Drone Layer (if available) : Detectors, Jammers, EO, Soft-Kill solutions.
First Layer : ZSU-23 & L70 AA guns with Flycatcher FCR, Igla MANPADS.
Second Layer : SPYDER, Akash
Third Layer : MRSAM
Additional Layer (if available) : S-400

Doctrine is requirement of point-defence fighters are minimised so that attacks like Feb 27th can be handled by AD without taking fighters airborne.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Leaving the nomenclature part aside which is a matter of semantics , the question should be can the Rafale , Eurofighter , Gripen , F-35 perform more than one role in a mission ? The answer is yes it can . Can their analogues in the VKS like the Su-30 M2 & the Su-35S perform such a role ? The answer is no , they cannot .

Only the Su-57 can perform such a role though this is more speculation since it's not been proven but is a logical progression & expected of a Russian 5th Gen FA .



You seem to be under the impression that TRMs can only be located in the nose. F5 upgrades comes with DAS & EODAS with GaN antennas. Plus a brand new TF.



The 1st stage Su-57 will eventually be upgraded to 2nd stage Su-57 . Rafales will be continuously upgraded up until 2050 & beyond. The French plan to retain it upto 2060-65. There's already talk of F6 package specifications being drawn up.


So far they haven't been successful. So why are you breaking your head here & eating up bandwidth ? Bring it up when there's credible news the IAF is in discussions with the Russians for the Su-57.


Thanks but no thanks , this information is available on the net.

I am no air aviation expert, but why WOULDNT YOU send in a strike team of six planes for A2G missions with 2-3 being exclusively A2G and the rest being A2A ??
Whatever missiles or bombs you drop on ground are like 20x heavier than the ones you shoot planes with, so why wouldnt you want your escort jets to be 100% optimized for escorting ??
Seems to me there is nothing to be gained by sharing payload of A2G package between all the six planes - congrats, you now have six planes who can all do A2G mission but all have 1 bomb each and now all the planes are suboptimal for the A2A role due to significantly heavier A2G missile stuck to it.

Why would you want this option ???

 

[Azaad]

Yes their russian analogous can.
Here's a pic below of su35 carrying air to air, air to surface/Anti ship missiles and wing tip jammers in the same mission.
Like seriously that's basic stuff for modern fighter jets.
Arguing with you feels and more pathetic.

Yes the Su-35S is omni role. I stand corrected.

DAS( distributed aperture system) and EODAS( electronic optical distributed aperture system, basically irst+DAS) are IR( infra red system) why the fuck will they come with GAN antennas?
Whyyyy the fuck an Infrared system have gan antennas? Does fucking irst have gan or gas trm?
Bhai maaf karde galti hogayi tere se argue Kar liye hum.

Didn't you see DAS in that very post there there ? You're talking to someone who's working & posting here simultaneously. Cut me some slack. Or are you a pedant ? Look up the word if you don't know it's meaning .

And thanks for informing me what the EODAS consists of . This is the first time I've come across it .

And that 1st of su57 is better than future rafale f5, because it already has more powerful radar, DAS( not as as goods as DAS of f35 and not as integrated), su57 right now also has DIRCM that rafale f4 lacks.
Along with being a stealth jet.


Bhai tu womao chinks se lad, aeronautics me mat ghus, vinti hai

How do you know their radar is more powerful than Rafales ? Let me guess . You counted their TRMs. So the more the TRMs the better the range & the better the resolution . I read you very well.

Did you or didn't you read what I wrote before about the Time lines & the fact that we're already familiar with the Rafales having set up 2 bases here catering to 72 nos Rafales for which we've already spent a billion USD if not more plus the training as well as evolved tactics in how this FA is deployed.

Which AF will undertake all this repeatedly for marginal gains at higher costs which is basically duplicating the infrastructure when they can get all this through upgrades which proves economical ? Sort of the same logic why we didn't go in for the Su-35 when it was offered to us since we already had the Su-30

Ever thought of being a paid agent for the Russian ? Feel free to contact them. They'd be delighted to have shill for them on board. As it is they're pretty isolated & miserable.