Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

IAF is seriously done with Russian fighters. The maintenance nightmare faced for Su30 MKi is what made IAF to steer clear of any upcoming Russian jets especially the diesel guzzling engines. MiG 29 and Su 30 have given very hard time in hangers.
If Russian offers Su-57 then it should be Co development with using Su 57 airframe and that AL51 engine other than that all sub systems from mission computer EWS RWR AESA Radars indigenously built. Like using onix we built Brahmos we have to build our own Su 57 clone which isn’t happening. Buying F35 is like becoming yanks bitch for next 4 decades.
 
People were thinking too much hype for SU-57.

The reality will be same as all planes/tanks/weapons from Russians.

1. Will looks great on outside.
2. Once bought we will see the reality.
3. The Mission computer is stone age shit.
4. The EW system perform dogshit.
5. The overall fit and finish looks shit compared to even Tejas. Will see quality lapse and Russians will ask for extra money.
6. Radar will be PESA since they don't have any AESA for now.
7. We will proudly start the upgradation program. Replace the radar, add our own MAWS, RWR, Targeting system and EOTS. Then replace the Mission computer.
8. Finally start inducting the Astra Mk3, Rudram, HSLD, Gaurav and do the trials.
9. Because as we aware current Russian missile completely failed with us during post Balakot standoff.
10. But claim the plane is cost less. But in reality we bought in less price and put further money to make it good.

Finally.

View attachment 27075

This is not an 5th Gen plane. Spectra, Aladdin, Ninja jutjisu cannot make it stealth. Even LO, BLO, GLOW designation will not make it 5th Gen. It is an 4.5th Gen plane.

View attachment 27076

It is an 5th Gen plane on paper. But still have compromise like IRST, Partially exposed turbines. We don't know the nature of RAM, how good the russian composites were. It gives slight edge. But still F-35, F-22 can smoke it due to much better sensors and overall stealth nature.
There are so many wrong things in your post.
Listen man, su57 is not as good as f35, I would say not as as good as j20.
But it's better than rafale in stealth, and not inferior in terms of avionics even by a little but.
And those exposed engine, are for protypes, production varient is fully covered one.
Aa for spectra, it's a good suite but not some best in world suite, again it's a very good suite, but highly overhyped, many modern suites can rival it.


As for the Russian missile.
It's not just the missiles fault.
Bars radar of su30mki is easier to jam,also has significant clutter.
And pak had ew plane in the area.
And the radar and missile both are old.
Even latest Russian missiles are little bit behind, china.
But little bit only.


As for the radar of su57.
It's an GaAs aesa radar called no36 belka
Its based on su 35's irbis E radar which itself is lot better than su30mki'a no11 Bars radar.
It's the first aesa radar for fighter jets by russia so unproven, but they have experience in aesa tech in other areas, for example russia has developed and in service, early warning, long range surveillance and fire control Aesa radars for ground air defense


And su30mki is not shit that we need to upgrade it, in the last 25+ years avionics tech have evolved too fast.
It's the stupidity to churning out same standard su30 for 20 years.
Even russia moved on to su35 in mid 2010's.
eurofighters are also getting upgraded, as uk and germany made somewhat similar mistake as us, france on the other hand did the right thing, they rafale f1, rafale f2, rafale f3, now rafale f4 and in future rafale f5.
and unlike other countries where block have some advancement, in case of france these blocks had " significantly major upgrades"
Though su57 if we dif the same thing we did for su30mki, then by 2035 su57 will start getting outdated as both f35, j20 are getting continous upgrades.
russia also plans to go this continous upgrade route, that's why are not make a large single order for su57.
So far 76 orders for single seat 57 are given, while work on twin seat su57 has began Russia plans for 200+ by 2035-40.





For su57 The Mission computer is digital, the screen layout makes the cockpit look old.
And the layout is pretty old school looking, but all those screens are lcd, just not arranged together in wide signal display.


And as for the fit and finish, your probably talking about the prototypes again.

Eots= irst(flir) + Laser targeting pod in crystal dome.
Su57 doesn't have crystal dome and laser targeting pod, now crystal dome further help in some more rcs reduction
But for laser targeting there are some people who do question whether laser pods are still useful especially in future with the coming of gps/ins, EO, IR guidance.
Also su57 has side facing aesa radars array, and back facing too, the only one to have these.
It is also the only fighter to have DIRCM right now.

Now f35 will sure smoke su57, even j20 has better chances.
But f22, na.
It's a 30 year old plane that's overhyped.
It's the least capable 5th gen.
Su57 is second least capable one.
Infact the only thing "5th" gen in f22 are stealth and engines.



F22 lacks any irst/eots system.
Su57's irst, with good environmental factor will detect f22 first and track it first.
So russia did "succeeded" in making The raptor killer, though now it has to face f35 lightning2.

Plus f22 uses lot of metal in its construction
By structural weight f22 has about 37% composites, tejas has 50%, f35 has 65%.
Lot more metal, higher ir signature.

That's the reason f22 is undergoing "upgrades" to f35 standard, but avionics upgrades can't provide it the same stealth( yes unlike the propaganda, f22 is less stealthy than f35 from front, f35 is the most stealthy 5th gen fighter jet.) and reduced ir signature as f35, That's the reason usaf is testing those shiny coatings on f22, in an attempt to try to reduce it's ir signature significantly, so it can take on j20 and su57.

If this testing doesn't get any results then most likely f22 with go in retirement home, replace by f35 if usaf wants same stealth role, or f15 ex.
There's a reason there were talks about retiring f22 by 2030's.


For more detail here.
 

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Su-57 mki might sound most logical here, but how many can ruskies make rn, shifting production lines here would take time, then thereis time to modify the whole platform, if we start working on su-57 from today, its gonna take a decade.
Russkies can't supply us right now. The best they can do is ship 2-4 birds and hand over the airframe and engines for us to manufacture here. We won't be fiddling with it's design or engines even. Just replacing the radar, avionics, data link and comm standards, mission computer, cockpit displays as per usual. And test it with Indian weapons. We can do all this in less than 5 years if we want to.
 
i.e To prevent issues like pic related happening again with another G2G
This is where I want some responses frommembraans despite being a bit OT
Bhajipao cowards are really so fkng scared of this houthiya raga to even order 2nd tranche Rafale for the purposes of natl security? If so they really don't deserve to be in power, I mean all that effing 56d and aksai chin pok hamaara hai chest thumping and you can't even face hearing 'scam scam' in newspapers and media ? That despite SC giving a clean chit and saying there was no scam in Rafale g2g purchase ....these bhajipao cowards (if abv assumption is true) really are a bunch of chaddi shivering banias who care only abt business and media image and not defence of the nation.
 
So MRFA will at best happen by 2030 and we will be buying a foreign 4.5th gen at $250 a pop throughout the 2030s when many nations would have started to induct 6th gen. Our AMCA would probably have started the production and we would be needing another "STOPGAP" for the 6th gen threat.
You are too optimistic, the whole point of MRFA is to kill AMCA and keep importing upto Nth gen fighter forever....
 
You are too optimistic, the whole point of MRFA is to kill AMCA and keep importing upto Nth gen fighter forever....
Not in my opinion. Our requirement is so big that our desi fighters can't fulfill it (atleast for now). We don't make engines ourselves so there is big dependency even with our indigenous fighters. We only made LCA then planned to get AMCA then we included Mk-1A then again instered Mk-2 also. Idk how are we gonna feed three different fighter programs together when our aerospace industry is still not that mature and grown. This is why IAF is pushing for MRFA. We need numbers and swadeshi can't fulfill the requirements just now. How are you suppose to get 40-50 fighters per year to cater the needs of IAF?
 
Russkies can't supply us right now. The best they can do is ship 2-4 birds and hand over the airframe and engines for us to manufacture here. We won't be fiddling with it's design or engines even. Just replacing the radar, avionics, data link and comm standards, mission computer, cockpit displays as per usual. And test it with Indian weapons. We can do all this in less than 5 years if we want to.
To begin with their definitive Stage 2 is still under testing with the AL-51 TF . Been so since the second half of 2023 for since then we've no news of any further induction of the Su-57 in the VKS.

Whether the VKS has halted deliveries coz they want all future induction of the Su-57 to be of the Stage 2 variety or production is held up due to the war is unknown as of now.

Further we don't know how long it'd take Sukhoi to certify the Su-57 as FOC. Assuming it'd take another 4 years , that brings us to the end of the decade.

This is important as the IAF is not going to consider Work in Progress - WiP FAs as they've burnt their fingers plenty of times in the past with such FAs , the most recent examples being the MKI & the MiG-29K. Arguably this is also another important consideration why the IAF isn't considering the F-35 among other important issues.

Finally the integration & certification of all those systems you've listed won't be accomplished in 5 years , it's more like a 10 year schedule.

Su-57 as it exists now may well score over the Rafales but with their constant upgradation packages , the next technology refresh or F5 , they'd leap over the Su-57 which in turn will get its own technology refresh late next decade to give it an edge over the Rafales. This cat & mouse game is eternal.

The Rafales enjoy a first movers advantage over the Su-57 in the IAF . That's one of the main reasons among others , the IAF isn't that keen about the Su-57 over the Rafales.

Creating the logistics behind a brand new induction , training , evolving tactics etc takes a lot of resources - men , money , material but most importantly time.

It's the same reason we didn't opt for the Su-35 as the gains over the MKI are incremental not exponential whereas the hassle especially the costs don't justify the induction , as upgrades to the MKI will not only bring on par with the Su-35 but better it in most aspects.

For the IAF to consider the Su-57 , it has to come with exponential abilities over anything the IAF has in its inventory which imparts it with more than an edge if it goes up against the J-20 which the IAF in its wisdom have concluded it doesn't.

You can disagree with their conclusion but the IAF knows more about the Su-57 & the Rafales than us random guys duking it out on such platforms as DFB. In other words we ought to trust their judgement .
 
For the IAF to consider the Su-57 , it has to come with exponential abilities over anything the IAF has in its inventory which imparts it with more than an edge if it goes up against the J-20 which the IAF in its wisdom have concluded it doesn't.

You can disagree with their conclusion but the IAF knows more about the Su-57 & the Rafales than us random guys duking it out on such platforms as DFB. In other words we ought to trust their judgement
Any link or something, where iaf concluded it didn't?
imo, j20 will still has some edge over su57 in terms of radar and ir stealth.
But not too significant, especially once loyal wingman come to play.

I would completely trust Iaf'a conclusion, but where is the conclusion you say?
 
Until and unless engine for fighter jet is developed indigenously, Imports would not cater to our demands except to make a huge dent in our hard earned money.
 
Until and unless engine for fighter jet is developed indigenously, Imports would not cater to our demands except to make a huge dent in our hard earned money.
If I want to fly to a destination 1000 miles away,i n my aircraft, I have to put enough fuel in it to fly 1000. miles. If I don't I won't get to my destination. With India successive governments needed to put enough money into Kaveri to reach certification. Putting in enough to reach part the way there meant it could not succeed in getting there .To continue my analogy with a flight, the Kaveri programme needed to fly 1000 miles but GOI only put in fuel to take it 100 or 200 miles.
 
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There are so many wrong things in your post.
Listen man, su57 is not as good as f35, I would say not as as good as j20.
But it's better than rafale in stealth, and not inferior in terms of avionics even by a little but.
And those exposed engine, are for protypes, production varient is fully covered one.
Aa for spectra, it's a good suite but not some best in world suite, again it's a very good suite, but highly overhyped, many modern suites can rival it.


As for the Russian missile.
It's not just the missiles fault.
Bars radar of su30mki is easier to jam,also has significant clutter.
And pak had ew plane in the area.
And the radar and missile both are old.
Even latest Russian missiles are little bit behind, china.
But little bit only.


As for the radar of su57.
It's an GaAs aesa radar called no36 belka
Its based on su 35's irbis E radar which itself is lot better than su30mki'a no11 Bars radar.
It's the first aesa radar for fighter jets by russia so unproven, but they have experience in aesa tech in other areas, for example russia has developed and in service, early warning, long range surveillance and fire control Aesa radars for ground air defense


And su30mki is not shit that we need to upgrade it, in the last 25+ years avionics tech have evolved too fast.
It's the stupidity to churning out same standard su30 for 20 years.
Even russia moved on to su35 in mid 2010's.
eurofighters are also getting upgraded, as uk and germany made somewhat similar mistake as us, france on the other hand did the right thing, they rafale f1, rafale f2, rafale f3, now rafale f4 and in future rafale f5.
and unlike other countries where block have some advancement, in case of france these blocks had " significantly major upgrades"
Though su57 if we dif the same thing we did for su30mki, then by 2035 su57 will start getting outdated as both f35, j20 are getting continous upgrades.
russia also plans to go this continous upgrade route, that's why are not make a large single order for su57.
So far 76 orders for single seat 57 are given, while work on twin seat su57 has began Russia plans for 200+ by 2035-40.





For su57 The Mission computer is digital, the screen layout makes the cockpit look old.
And the layout is pretty old school looking, but all those screens are lcd, just not arranged together in wide signal display.


And as for the fit and finish, your probably talking about the prototypes again.

Eots= irst(flir) + Laser targeting pod in crystal dome.
Su57 doesn't have crystal dome and laser targeting pod, now crystal dome further help in some more rcs reduction
But for laser targeting there are some people who do question whether laser pods are still useful especially in future with the coming of gps/ins, EO, IR guidance.
Also su57 has side facing aesa radars array, and back facing too, the only one to have these.
It is also the only fighter to have DIRCM right now.

Now f35 will sure smoke su57, even j20 has better chances.
But f22, na.
It's a 30 year old plane that's overhyped.
It's the least capable 5th gen.
Su57 is second least capable one.
Infact the only thing "5th" gen in f22 are stealth and engines.



F22 lacks any irst/eots system.
Su57's irst, with good environmental factor will detect f22 first and track it first.
So russia did "succeeded" in making The raptor killer, though now it has to face f35 lightning2.

Plus f22 uses lot of metal in its construction
By structural weight f22 has about 37% composites, tejas has 50%, f35 has 65%.
Lot more metal, higher ir signature.

That's the reason f22 is undergoing "upgrades" to f35 standard, but avionics upgrades can't provide it the same stealth( yes unlike the propaganda, f22 is less stealthy than f35 from front, f35 is the most stealthy 5th gen fighter jet.) and reduced ir signature as f35, That's the reason usaf is testing those shiny coatings on f22, in an attempt to try to reduce it's ir signature significantly, so it can take on j20 and su57.

If this testing doesn't get any results then most likely f22 with go in retirement home, replace by f35 if usaf wants same stealth role, or f15 ex.
There's a reason there were talks about retiring f22 by 2030's.


For more detail here.


My friend. You can scream SU-57 improved in every areas, but it is an mediocre platform since Russians were shit in electronics. We already burned too much money on every Russian projects till now. You buy and it will be shit. You put money and make that turd to work. Happened with SU-30MKI, t-90, INS Vikramadithya with its WW2 era boilers, t-72s.

Russians in then HAL FGFA does not give access to Mission computer. Out of nowhere they will access now. Nice air castle building we are doing for decades now.

I don't want fighters which cannot be integrated within Indian Air command. The Americans will not give those access for an F-35 neither the Russians who declined the access of Mission computer even though HAL was an partner and spend millions on the project.

We are not some Middle east airforce where you can buy aircrafts from everywhere and operate. We need our aircrafts to be fully integrated since the adversary in PLAAF.
 
Not in my opinion. Our requirement is so big that our desi fighters can't fulfill it (atleast for now). We don't make engines ourselves so there is big dependency even with our indigenous fighters. We only made LCA then planned to get AMCA then we included Mk-1A then again instered Mk-2 also. Idk how are we gonna feed three different fighter programs together when our aerospace industry is still not that mature and grown. This is why IAF is pushing for MRFA. We need numbers and swadeshi can't fulfill the requirements just now. How are you suppose to get 40-50 fighters per year to cater the needs of IAF?

You take the red pill and work on this. Otherwise, everyone will cite the same reason and import perennially. An decade ago, OFB dominates everything from bullets, guns, tanks, IFV, Artillery. etc.

Today we have SSS, Bharat Forge, Adani, TASL, L&T will all products getting manufactured. You want an extra OEM for aircrafts get one via evaluation.


TASL will be your second OEM for aircraft. You want three then L&T at third. Anything more than 3 will not be feasible.

Now ADA/ADE needs to freeze the design. From what we an see, they freeze and waited for CCS which is sitting on its ass.

Otherwise you want our balls always on some European, American table. Then get ready to face their whims.
 
My friend. You can scream SU-57 improved in every areas, but it is an mediocre platform since Russians were shit in electronics. We already burned too much money on every Russian projects till now. You buy and it will be shit. You put money and make that turd to work. Happened with SU-30MKI, t-90, INS Vikramadithya with its WW2 era boilers, t-72s.

Russians in then HAL FGFA does not give access to Mission computer. Out of nowhere they will access now. Nice air castle building we are doing for decades now.

I don't want fighters which cannot be integrated within Indian Air command. The Americans will not give those access for an F-35 neither the Russians who declined the access of Mission computer even though HAL was an partner and spend millions on the project.

We are not some Middle east airforce where you can buy aircrafts from everywhere and operate. We need our aircrafts to be fully integrated since the adversary in PLAAF.
Well, looks like you already made up your mind.
 
IAF seems pretty relaxed about the whole affair. There seems to be no urgency on the fifth gen front.

Pretty chill all around.
 

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