Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[randombully]

mki variant is definitely not getting manufactured by 2030.

What extensive changes except avionics will be In su57mki that it won't be produced by 2030?
Not to mention even if it turned out to be true, then we can just produced the mki varient with less indigenous content, and slowly increase it with different lot of aircrafr as production continue.

 

[Azaad]

The government got the cold feet after allegations of the Rafale scam. Had that not happened, we would have been in a much better state today.
One thing I dislike about this government is the staggered approach to buying stuff which has led to many cost overruns.

That was our preliminary reading of the situation. However by 2021 , we read reports where the then CDS the late Gen Rawat had voiced his displeasure in public at the IAF stance of insisting on getting the MTFA ( read Rafales ) in 1 shot thru a tender whereas the MoD wanted to pursue a piece meal procurement a la the MKI.

If they're going in for a tender at this stage they need all the abuse they get & more. This could've been accomplished anytime between 2016 - 2022 . What's the point in going in for it now ?

Meanwhile this is what the IAF chief has to say about the proposed F-35 acquisition.


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1898252376806445303

Hope that puts the matter to rest .

 

[mist_consecutive]

Did anyone pay attention to the nose if the crashed An-32 ?

The point which everyone missed is, its nose is modified to carry something, probably new radars (Virupaksha?).

 

[Migflug]

That was our preliminary reading of the situation. However by 2021 , we read reports where the then CDS the late Gen Rawat had voiced his displeasure in public at the IAF stance of insisting on getting the MTFA ( read Rafales ) in 1 shot thru a tender whereas the MoD wanted to pursue a piece meal procurement a la the MKI.

If they're going in for a tender at this stage they need all the abuse they get & more. This could've been accomplished anytime between 2016 - 2022 . What's the point in going in for it now ?

Meanwhile this is what the IAF chief has to say about the proposed F-35 acquisition.


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1898252376806445303

Hope that puts the matter to rest .

This piecemeal order is why we couldn't make a proper bargain with any country. Had we gone all out and ordered 126 of them at one go, we could have also negotiated for the AMCA engines co-development, an M88-3 which could have powered MK1A. But we have never had any strategic vision regarding defense procurements, it was always tactical. This is the reason why we are the biggest arms importers in the world.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

This piecemeal order is why we couldn't make a proper bargain with any country. Had we gone all out and ordered 126 of them at one go, we could have also negotiated for the AMCA engines co-development, an M88-3 which could have powered MK1A. But we have never had any strategic vision regarding defense procurements, it was always tactical. This is the reason why we are the biggest arms importers in the world.

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

For ex... we acquired 2x F3R... then we could have acquired 2x F4 & later 2x F5... and in future all would not have became obsolete at once and required upgrade at once... such arrangement not possible in large contracts(bcoz you cannot expect Dassault to put a price for Radars & Engines of F5 version which are not even in existence)

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

The 1st & last MKI rolling out of HAL facility were on exact same specifications... 14 yrs apart.

 

[Migflug]

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

Well if upgraded MKI to Super Sukhoi, there wouldn't have been obsolescence. Even after a decade, there is no concrete movement on that front. Many claim it was because IAF was hell-bent on having MRFA.

I don't think anyone believes we will get full ToT on the engine deal, but a co-development co-produced Sakhti Engine M88-3 variant would have been a better deal than complete import dependency like we currently have.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Su-57 takes say

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

For ex... we acquired 2x F3R... then we could have acquired 2x F4 & later 2x F5... and in future all would not have became obsolete at once and required upgrade at once... such arrangement not possible in large contracts(bcoz you cannot expect Dassault to put a price for Radars & Engines of F5 version which are not even in existence)

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

The 1st & last MKI rolling out of HAL facility were on exact same specifications... 14 yrs apart.

Block Obsolescence is a thing because it's a sub-standard piece of junk from onset.

 

[AbRaj]

34 Air Force accidents in 5 years, 19 due to human error: Parliamentary panel
The Indian Air Force
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-error-parliamentary-panel-2652755-2024-12-20

Human Error (Aircrew): 19 incidents
Technical Defects: 9 incidents
Other Causes: Including bird strikes and foreign object damage

Sign of unProfessional Airforce- Human error

 

[Azaad]

This piecemeal order is why we couldn't make a proper bargain with any country.

This piece meal order was coz Leaderji increased the CAPEX of the Defence Budget piece meal as opposed to exponentially. Had he been more generous things would've been different.

Otherwise with 25-30 billion USD to be shelled out over a period of 12 years @2.5 billion USD per year means except for the IAF which would've it good , the IN & the IA would have to make do with peanuts.

Had we gone all out and ordered 126 of them at one go, we could have also negotiated for the AMCA engines co-development, an M88-3 which could have powered MK1A.

As of now they're not linked to the MRFA tender. That was the case when around 2010 , not anymore. Look at the way the world is rapidly changing.

France which used to have a neo colonial empire in Africa has now been booted out by most of them .

Like UK they can't afford the high cost of development. I'd argue except for the US & China that's true of every nation but more true of some nations going ahead than others.

All these nations want India in their corner . What happened when the F/A-18 lost out in the MRCBF tender to the Rafales? Did the US kick up a storm. If they did we didn't hear it . Hence collaboration with India for the 120 KN TF is the harbinger of many more things to come to whosoever gets the contract.

But we have never had any strategic vision regarding defense procurements, it was always tactical. This is the reason why we are the biggest arms importers in the world.

Yes that's part of the problem. No strategic vision translates to ad hoc budgets which in turn translates to sub standard procurement which in turn jacks up the price & leads to longer delivery period , etc .

That's how it has always been except for a brief period in the 1980s when IG was preparing for the final showdown with Paxtan but got ambushed by Bhindranwale & her idiot son sh@t in his pants when Gen Sundarji was at the cusp of handing him a victory vide Operation Brass Tacks.

Since then Dhotis have been discreet at the cost of valour just as IG was the only male PM the Congress (I) ever had except for PVNR who was half man ....

 

[Azaad]

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

For ex... we acquired 2x F3R... then we could have acquired 2x F4 & later 2x F5... and in future all would not have became obsolete at once and required upgrade at once... such arrangement not possible in large contracts(bcoz you cannot expect Dassault to put a price for Radars & Engines of F5 version which are not even in existence)

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

The 1st & last MKI rolling out of HAL facility were on exact same specifications... 14 yrs apart.

Actually while this may seem the case especially when we procured 36 nos Rafales , that came about only coz the MMRCA tender was cancelled .

Otherwise we were to get the whole lot as per the prevailing standard which IIRC was the F3.

Subsequently we opted to go in for the procurement thru the MRFA tender. It's another matter that the tendering process went nowhere after the RFI was announced & this was way back in 2016-17.

I've given the reason for piece meal procurement in the previous post.

 

[Azaad]

View: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1898053018417012737?s=19



Everybody seems to be at the expense of the vardi , babudumb, Dhotis etc

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

View: https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/1898053018417012737?s=19



Everybody seems to be at the expense of the vardi , babudumb, Dhotis etc

babus are still giving us chooran about "muh tot", while we getting scammed left and right by import khors. tot at this point might as well be stand-in for Screwdrivergiri.

that being said, chatgpt's answer isn't exactly that good, first it says to fast track tejas mk1a induction, which is impossible until unkill sam ensure smooth supply of engines.

The quagmire we're in didn't happen because of one single reason, it combination of many decades of incompetence from both babus and airForce. IMO i would support current opposition if they demand a investigation into sorry state of IAF.

 

[randombully]

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1898444300179910987

With this both alpha defense, and defense matrix.
Seems to agree with my conclusion of su57 over rafale.
It was fuckin stupid that there was even a debate over capabilities of rafale vs su57.

Now it's up to iaf if thet wanna go for a stealth jet or they feel non stealth jet like rafale can still be decent choice in the current situation.

But f35 and US are the biggest variable here.

 

[Migflug]

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1898444300179910987

With this both alpha defense, and defense matrix.
Seems to agree with my conclusion of su57 over rafale.
It was fuckin stupid that there was even a debate over capabilities of rafale vs su57.

Now it's up to iaf if thet wanna go for a stealth jet or they feel non stealth jet like rafale can still be decent choice in the current situation.

But f35 and US are the biggest variable here.

Besides bringing a private ecosystem in India and Spectra EW, Rafale has no edge over Su57.

 

[Migflug]

This piece meal order was coz Leaderji increased the CAPEX of the Defence Budget piece meal as opposed to exponentially. Had he been more generous things would've been different.

Otherwise with 25-30 billion USD to be shelled out over a period of 12 years @2.5 billion USD per year means except for the IAF which would've it good , the IN & the IA would have to make do with peanuts.


As of now they're not linked to the MRFA tender. That was the case when around 2010 , not anymore. Look at the way the world is rapidly changing.

France which used to have a neo colonial empire in Africa has now been booted out by most of them .

Like UK they can't afford the high cost of development. I'd argue except for the US & China that's true of every nation but more true of some nations going ahead than others.

All these nations want India in their corner . What happened when the F/A-18 lost out in the MRCBF tender to the Rafales? Did the US kick up a storm. If they did we didn't hear it . Hence collaboration with India for the 120 KN TF is the harbinger of many more things to come to whosoever gets the contract.


Yes that's part of the problem. No strategic vision translates to ad hoc budgets which in turn translates to sub standard procurement which in turn jacks up the price & leads to longer delivery period , etc .

That's how it has always been except for a brief period in the 1980s when IG was preparing for the final showdown with Paxtan but got ambushed by Bhindranwale & her idiot son sh@t in his pants when Gen Sundarji was at the cusp of handing him a victory vide Operation Brass Tacks.

Since then Dhotis have been discreet at the cost of valour just as IG was the only male PM the Congress (I) ever had except for PVNR who was half man ....

Agree with this point, moving forward no country barring China and the USA will be able to maintain a large cutting-edge military-industrial complex due to the sheer high cost of development. Russians, a former superpower are already struggling on that front. All their current tech are vestiges of the Soviet era. The French/UK/Europeans may collate their resource, but their EURO projects often have faced many hiccups in the past.
This brings India in a unique position to bargain with them to share their coveted IPs with our economic muscle. This has never happened before, but engine technology is the pinnacle of any MIC, so it is to be seen how these great powers of the past respond.

 

[Migflug]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1898583522383937922?t=PdltDVull0VaVIZof0ZiaQ&s=19

 

[DumbPilot]

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1898444300179910987

With this both alpha defense, and defense matrix.
Seems to agree with my conclusion of su57 over rafale.
It was fuckin stupid that there was even a debate over capabilities of rafale vs su57.

Now it's up to iaf if thet wanna go for a stealth jet or they feel non stealth jet like rafale can still be decent choice in the current situation.

But f35 and US are the biggest variable here.

"easily desi-fied like the Su-30MKI", lol

 

[ArjunMK1A]

People were thinking too much hype for SU-57.

The reality will be same as all planes/tanks/weapons from Russians.

1. Will looks great on outside.
2. Once bought we will see the reality.
3. The Mission computer is stone age shit.
4. The EW system perform dogshit.
5. The overall fit and finish looks shit compared to even Tejas. Will see quality lapse and Russians will ask for extra money.
6. Radar will be PESA since they don't have any AESA for now.
7. We will proudly start the upgradation program. Replace the radar, add our own MAWS, RWR, Targeting system and EOTS. Then replace the Mission computer.
8. Finally start inducting the Astra Mk3, Rudram, HSLD, Gaurav and do the trials.
9. Because as we aware current Russian missile completely failed with us during post Balakot standoff.
10. But claim the plane is cost less. But in reality we bought in less price and put further money to make it good.

Finally.



This is not an 5th Gen plane. Spectra, Aladdin, Ninja jutjisu cannot make it stealth. Even LO, BLO, GLOW designation will not make it 5th Gen. It is an 4.5th Gen plane.



It is an 5th Gen plane on paper. But still have compromise like IRST, Partially exposed turbines. We don't know the nature of RAM, how good the russian composites were. It gives slight edge. But still F-35, F-22 can smoke it due to much better sensors and overall stealth nature.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Also, do we have exact dimensions of the AMCA IWB. We have Length and width. What will be its depth?

 

[DumbPilot]

People were thinking too much hype for SU-57.

The reality will be same as all planes/tanks/weapons from Russians.

1. Will looks great on outside.
2. Once bought we will see the reality.
3. The Mission computer is stone age shit.
4. The EW system perform dogshit.
5. The overall fit and finish looks shit compared to even Tejas. Will see quality lapse and Russians will ask for extra money.
6. Radar will be PESA since they don't have any AESA for now.
7. We will proudly start the upgradation program. Replace the radar, add our own MAWS, RWR, Targeting system and EOTS. Then replace the Mission computer.
8. Finally start inducting the Astra Mk3, Rudram, HSLD, Gaurav and do the trials.
9. Because as we aware current Russian missile completely failed with us during post Balakot standoff.
10. But claim the plane is cost less. But in reality we bought in less price and put further money to make it good.

Finally.

View attachment 27075

This is not an 5th Gen plane. Spectra, Aladdin, Ninja jutjisu cannot make it stealth. Even LO, BLO, GLOW designation will not make it 5th Gen. It is an 4.5th Gen plane.

View attachment 27076

It is an 5th Gen plane on paper. But still have compromise like IRST, Partially exposed turbines. We don't know the nature of RAM, how good the russian composites were. It gives slight edge. But still F-35, F-22 can smoke it due to much better sensors and overall stealth nature.

so much hype that the people seem to forget we ourselves pulled out of the FGFA program in the first place because it was designed to be shitty

Sukhoi/HAL FGFA - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org