Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[ezsasa]

Build up defensively against them? That seems to be Indian govt strategy?? brahmos, Barak , P8I etc....

from strategic point of view, this paper helps..
======
Conclusion

Comparing Indian and Chinese military capabilities in isolation from the broader transregional context can lead to inaccurate assessments. China faces security challenges at a much larger scale than India. Moreover, India currently also benefits from strategic partnerships with countries such as the United States, Japan, and France that give it greater latitude in the Indian Ocean, which is its principal area of interest. Growing power disparity will certainly keep Indian strategic thinkers worried for some time to come, but they should not lose sight of the strategic advantages India currently enjoys. These reflect India’s fewer supply-chain vulnerabilities in its own backyard, the nature of other security threats the two countries face, and, most important, the enormous geographical advantage India has over China in the Indian Ocean. Any Chinese naval flotilla sent to engage the Indian navy would be without reliable air cover and, due to logistical constraints, would only be able to sustain combat operations for a few weeks.

These critical Indian advantages are extremely difficult for Beijing to overcome, especially when one considers that the Indian Ocean is not its primary area of strategic concern. While the United States is China’s principal rival, Pakistan, despite its nuclear arsenal, does not compete with India in the Indian Ocean. What is more, Taiwan, the South China Sea, and the Asia-Pacific region more broadly are far more vital for Chinese national interests than the Indian Ocean at this time. While India is asserting its place as the resident power in the Indian Ocean, it is also coordinating its efforts with the U.S. Navy, which gives India additional leverage against China in the region. The Chinese navy is slowly working to overcome its strategic liabilities in the Indian Ocean, but for at least the next couple of decades, India will likely hold a critical advantage over China there.

It’s Still the Indian Ocean: Parsing Sino-Indian Naval Competition Where It Counts - War on the Rocks

Editor's Note: This is part of a short series examining maritime geography and strategic challenges in specific bodies of water, ranging from the Arctic

warontherocks.com

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

To reach that level we really would need to spend disproportionately more on defense as compared to what china does.

We are already spending 13% into defence buddy how much more you want

 

[LETHALFORCE]

All Pakistani ports are within strike range. The ships there will be a liability, not an asset.

Best case for them, they can use it to host some submarines, still limited usefulness for a major attack on us.

I never said we don't need to improve our power, just that it's not an immediate critical threat like our weakness in army/air force is.

Indeed, I am a strong proponent of a stronger navy so we can put a partial blockade around the Indonesian gap, this forcing Chinese ships to go from tip of SA all the way to Australia if they want to pass. Effectively denying the IOR.

I was discussing the same exact things more than 25 years ago , funny how no progress has been made.
Simple fact is China is not considered a blue water navy(by western measure)

 

[shauryaman65]

We are already spending 13% into defence buddy how much more you want

100%

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

100%

 

[Binayak95]

except when pakistan gives them a base let's be lazy and care free until then attittude

China could project military power from Pakistan's Gwadar port

The most commonly cited motive has to do with energy security, that is, as insurance against a blockade of the Strait of Malacca, a crucial shipping route for importing petroleum and liquefied natural gas. Even though overland transit is still highly vulnerable to disruption and is...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Even then, they wont enjoy local superiority. We retain the ability to smash any concentration of chinese forces in the IOR.

 

[Binayak95]

What I mean by the last para :-

View attachment 4130

This is the map of the IR region, which we need to dominate (to ensure trade lines)

These are the routes one can take to get across :-
View attachment 4131
(these are just my crude hand drawn lines, for actual routes look online but this covers the basic paths and is good enough for the point Im trying to make)

The red routes are ones we can control without changing much wrt current structure and procurement strategy.

The yellow route is also feasible, but may need a slight increase in naval power.

The orange one will be difficult, but if we build strong aircraft carrier fleets it is acheivable in future to control that gap also, especially if we can get basing in Aus for resupply.

Controlling the pink one I conside unacheivable in the short term, aside from sporadic interception of hostile ships.


Still, pushing chinese ships into using only the pink route will be a good win by itself, and will put a great strain on them. Assuming Australia lets them berth, it will still be an 8000km route without resupply, passing through antarctic region (doesnt look like that on the map, but you can check on a globe) and a difficult passage.

However, this is from a non naval background, with only online analysis et cetera to go off of. Maybe @Binayak95 or someone can correct me if I have missed something important.

the Idea of PLAN units not using the Malacca, instead going for the Sunda and Lombok straits is not new.
Chinese SSBNs and some of their larger units have used these in the recent past.

Which is why IN has ramped up cross deployment of P8Is to Australian bases, Japanese bases and USN base at Changi.

And likewise why you see those navies' P8s coming here.

And that reach requirement is why the IN is pursuing the MQ9B purchase vigorously.

 

[Binayak95]

from strategic point of view, this paper helps..
======
Conclusion

Comparing Indian and Chinese military capabilities in isolation from the broader transregional context can lead to inaccurate assessments. China faces security challenges at a much larger scale than India. Moreover, India currently also benefits from strategic partnerships with countries such as the United States, Japan, and France that give it greater latitude in the Indian Ocean, which is its principal area of interest. Growing power disparity will certainly keep Indian strategic thinkers worried for some time to come, but they should not lose sight of the strategic advantages India currently enjoys. These reflect India’s fewer supply-chain vulnerabilities in its own backyard, the nature of other security threats the two countries face, and, most important, the enormous geographical advantage India has over China in the Indian Ocean. Any Chinese naval flotilla sent to engage the Indian navy would be without reliable air cover and, due to logistical constraints, would only be able to sustain combat operations for a few weeks.

These critical Indian advantages are extremely difficult for Beijing to overcome, especially when one considers that the Indian Ocean is not its primary area of strategic concern. While the United States is China’s principal rival, Pakistan, despite its nuclear arsenal, does not compete with India in the Indian Ocean. What is more, Taiwan, the South China Sea, and the Asia-Pacific region more broadly are far more vital for Chinese national interests than the Indian Ocean at this time. While India is asserting its place as the resident power in the Indian Ocean, it is also coordinating its efforts with the U.S. Navy, which gives India additional leverage against China in the region. The Chinese navy is slowly working to overcome its strategic liabilities in the Indian Ocean, but for at least the next couple of decades, India will likely hold a critical advantage over China there.

It’s Still the Indian Ocean: Parsing Sino-Indian Naval Competition Where It Counts - War on the Rocks

Editor's Note: This is part of a short series examining maritime geography and strategic challenges in specific bodies of water, ranging from the Arctic

warontherocks.com

These articles are so full of hot air and just empty words it makes me shake my head in wonder that they get published with such confidence.

I am not denying the conclusions. But where is your analysis? Where is your at sea time calculation? where is your estimate of Chinese task forces' ability to sustain at sea while sailing from their bases in SCS to Djibouti? Where is your estimate of Chinese forward logistics ability to sustain said task forces in Gwadar ?

Leave aside MR sustenance, the ability or lack thereof of QUAD navies to track hostile chinese subs, woh sab choddo - basic logisitcs toh study karo.

Isse ache analysis toh INA mai 5th term cadets karte hai.

 

[ezsasa]

These articles are so full of hot air and just empty words it makes me shake my head in wonder that they get published with such confidence.

I am not denying the conclusions. But where is your analysis? Where is your at sea time calculation? where is your estimate of Chinese task forces' ability to sustain at sea while sailing from their bases in SCS to Djibouti? Where is your estimate of Chinese forward logistics ability to sustain said task forces in Gwadar ?

Leave aside MR sustenance, the ability or lack thereof of QUAD navies to track hostile chinese subs, woh sab choddo - basic logisitcs toh study karo.

Isse ache analysis toh INA mai 5th term cadets karte hai.

haven't been looking into indo-pacific related papers for past few months, because of our elections.

but pentagon is still in early stages of trying to get the full buy-in from DC crowd, for their indo-pacific programme. for now most of the literature is from IR wallahs, i suppose the closer they get to D-Day, more info drip feed will happen.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Can the Indian Navy warship INS Brahmaputra sail again? Here’s what we know so far

Officials told The Indian Express that efforts would be made to repair the ship and make her sailworthy as soon as possible.

They said that while the extent of the damage was yet to be ascertained, it was likely to be less than an accident involving, say, a collision or a dry dock fall, which is often irreparable. (A dry dock is a small basin or enclosed space in a shipyard into which a vessel that is being built or is in need of repairs is emptied of water, so that the entire vessel can be worked on.)

The officials added that in all likelihood, attempts to douse the fire on board led to an accumulation of water in the upper compartment of the ship, which caused it to become unstable and to ultimately keel over to one side.

https://indianexpress.com/article/explained/can-ins-brahmaputra-sail-again-explained-9473475/

 

[Azaad]

These articles are so full of hot air and just empty words it makes me shake my head in wonder that they get published with such confidence.

I am not denying the conclusions. But where is your analysis? Where is your at sea time calculation? where is your estimate of Chinese task forces' ability to sustain at sea while sailing from their bases in SCS to Djibouti? Where is your estimate of Chinese forward logistics ability to sustain said task forces in Gwadar ?

Leave aside MR sustenance, the ability or lack thereof of QUAD navies to track hostile chinese subs, woh sab choddo - basic logisitcs toh study karo.

Isse ache analysis toh INA mai 5th term cadets karte hai.

A 6 carrier fleet will be ready by the mid 2030s . That's when PLAN will set sail in the IOR & try to dominate it . All the concerns you're raising will be addressed by then .

That's when whatever power we're projecting in the IOR will be challenged & IN knows it doesn't have the wherewithal to challenge the PLAN then except to adopt a defensive posture , tie up with the Navies of other nations suspicious of China & who're in a position to do something about it , which we are undertaking at the moment.

The only good news is that the China problem will most likely be resolved by then , one way or another.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

A 6 carrier fleet will be ready by the mid 2030s . That's when PLAN will set sail in the IOR & try to dominate it . All the concerns you're raising will be addressed by then .

That's when whatever power we're projecting in the IOR will be challenged & IN knows it doesn't have the wherewithal to challenge the PLAN then except to adopt a defensive posture , tie up with the Navies of other nations suspicious of China & who're in a position to do something about it , which we are undertaking at the moment.

The only good news is that the China problem will most likely be resolved by then , one way or another.

By the mid 30s these shops
Would be completed

• Ngc
• Ngmv
• Replenishment tankers
• Rafale-m
• Hopefully 3rd carrier would be in an advanced state of building
• Ngd would start rolling probably in 37-38
• We would have huge number of Nilgiris
• Shitty soviet hulls would be replaced
• Andaman would be far better re-enforced
• Predator aquired
• C-295 based maritime survalance aircraft aquired
• Tedbf would be in testing/production too
• All our ssbn(arihant+s4) would be in sea
• Probably some ssn too
• S5 would be in advance stage of building/sea trials
• All asw shallow water craft and opvs would be completed and in seas

Regarding sensors uvls,lrmfr,vlsrsam,project kusha naval varient would be rolling too economy would be better thus we can make more ships then
Basically power projection aint gonna change that much

 

[samsaptaka]

Mumbai Dockyard sees way too many mishaps. Are there some saboteur/saboteurs inside who have not been detected so far? Need to have strong background checks there

Pathetic sarkari babu work culture, no accountability, no responsibility, no sense of shame, chalta hai attitude, no sense that you're working on an important naval asset. Mix this with reservations and reservation of promotion to undeserving candidates with merit thrown in the dustbin, this is what you get. Has the MD of this particular shipyard made any stmt, had ever been held accountable for previous accidents, any investigation and results of these investigations of previous accidents ? GoI, shipyard playing I scratch urs you scratch mine, IN gets screwed as mute bystander.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

Pathetic sarkari babu work culture, no accountability, no responsibility, no sense of shame, chalta hai attitude, no sense that you're working on an important naval asset. Mix this with reservations and reservation of promotion to undeserving candidates with merit thrown in the dustbin, this is what you get. Has the MD of this particular shipyard made any stmt, had ever been held accountable for previous accidents, any investigation and results of these investigations of previous accidents ? GoI, shipyard playing I scratch urs you scratch mine, IN gets screwed as mute bystander.

Sell this shipyard to mdl tbh they could bring better practices here

 

[vampyrbladez]

Frigate INS Brahmaputra that turned to a side after a fire onboard while undergoing a refit at Naval Dockyard, Mumbai has listed by about 40-45 degrees on the port side and is expected to take up to three months to get it upright and on even keel depending on approvals, defence officials said.

“The frigate turned to a side likely due to imbalance during the firefighting efforts with water. However, it has only listed at an angle and not entirely like in the case of INS Betwa,” an official in the know said. It is expected to take 2-3 months to get it upright and on even keel, the official stated.

Guided missile frigate INS Brahmaputra that was undergoing refit at Mumbai experienced severe listing to one side (port side) after a fire broke out on board the ship on July 21. A sailor was killed in the incident. There isn’t major ingress of water as the ship has listed at an angle and not completely to the side, officials stated.

Preliminary assessment which will determine the manner of getting it upright will be carried out very soon, an official said. The damage of Brahmaputra is not as much as in the case of Betwa, the official added. Once the ship is upright, the Navy will undertake a precise estimation on the damage to the ship and what needs to be done to make it fully operational and battle worthy once again.

Righting INS Brahmaputra could take up to three months
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...e-up-to-three-months/article68450851.ece/amp/

 

[Gandaberunda]

View: https://x.com/thelegatein/status/1817077117558960359?s=46&t=DQ2dLQSizRMeJsHSEVcJGg

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

View: https://x.com/thelegatein/status/1817077117558960359?s=46&t=DQ2dLQSizRMeJsHSEVcJGg

damn less damage then betwa its good news i guess

 

[VictorDelta4]

damn less damage then betwa its good news i guess

Yup hopefully quicker turnaround time to bring her back to service.
Are there no Indian firms capable of getting her upright that we always have to reach out to others? did the same thing for INS Betwa

 

[Suryavanshi]

Yup hopefully quicker turnaround time to bring her back to service.
Are there no Indian firms capable of getting her upright that we always have to reach out to others? did the same thing for INS Betwa

Mostly America and China Expertise in these.

 

[VictorDelta4]

Mostly America and China Expertise in these.

Guess this is one capability the navy can now focus on in housing!