Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Asmodeus]

I wouldn't take it at face value. We have comprehensive strategic partnership with France. They are also JV partner for 110KN engine devlopement, AIP SSN and Testing of tejas mk2 aerodynamic characteristics. Even though I am speculative about TEDBF being sabotagged in favour of imports, my gut feeling tells me its different this time. But who knows it may be the work of Chandigarh lobby. But good read actually.

$7.5 billion for 26 airframes?

View: https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1864640673145655480

 

[VictorDelta4]

We are stupid. Period.

This is the only explanation needed!

 

[Ayan Barat]

I think this format thoda deceptive hunda si..
Chinku thoda overpower lagda si..

Since it's UVLS, it's either 1SSM or 4 SAM for them. Not both at same time.
So let's say it's 1000 SSM / 3000 SAM.

Ohh koi gal nai Ji, twade waaste config config khed lewange...

We have all our front line ships, the figures would be

• 76 vessels
> around 550 AShMs
(Almost all being BrahMos with handful of Kh-35s and Termits); 850km
• around 300 Barak-1; 15km max
• around 500 Barak-8; premium AD, 90km
• around 400 VL-SRSAM, claimed range of 80km but smaller warhead
• around 350 Shtil-1; 50km ranged Okay-ish SAM
• around 250 Nova; pretty old 20km SAM
> around 1,800 SAMs in total

Let's configure the Chinese armada of 16 55s having 1,792 cells in total with primary focus on Anti-Ship mission; assigning 4x ballistic missiles and 8x cruise missile per Indian target with 80 estimated targets

> 960 AShMs in total
• 320 YJ-21 ballistic missiles; 1472 cells remaining
• 640 YJ-18 or CX-1 cruise missiles; 832 cells remaining
• 640 HHQ-9B long ranged SAM (40 per ship); 192 cells remaining
• 768 FM-3000N short ranged SAM (quad-packed); 0 cells remaining
> 1408 SAMs in total

Remark : This takes all the SAMs of Indian Navy as an aggregate which might provide a skewed figure as there are multiple ships that have absolutely no AD or just VL-SRSAM.

Each Indian ship is engaged with 12 missiles by the PLA-N but in reality just two Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles would be more than enough for a ship equipped with something like Barak-1

There's just AShMs and SAMs on the Chinese ship; they can also have ABMs or ASROCs if they configure. We can't have any of those.

NOTE : As always, there can be errors in data or calculations. Also it's more on an maximum approximation as some of the classes in Indian Navy have distinct armament for each sister ship

 

[NerVik]

Ohh koi gal nai Ji, twade waaste config config khed lewange...

We have all our front line ships, the figures would be

• 76 vessels
> around 550 AShMs
(Almost all being BrahMos with handful of Kh-35s and Termits); 850km
• around 300 Barak-1; 15km max
• around 500 Barak-8; premium AD, 90km
• around 400 VL-SRSAM, claimed range of 80km but smaller warhead
• around 350 Shtil-1; 50km ranged Okay-ish SAM
• around 250 Nova; pretty old 20km SAM
> around 1,800 SAMs in total

Let's configure the Chinese armada of 16 55s having 1,792 cells in total with primary focus on Anti-Ship mission; assigning 4x ballistic missiles and 8x cruise missile per Indian target with 80 estimated targets

> 960 AShMs in total
• 320 YJ-21 ballistic missiles; 1472 cells remaining
• 640 YJ-18 or CX-1 cruise missiles; 832 cells remaining
• 640 HHQ-9B long ranged SAM (40 per ship); 192 cells remaining
• 768 FM-3000N short ranged SAM (quad-packed); 0 cells remaining
> 1408 SAMs in total

Remark : This takes all the SAMs of Indian Navy as an aggregate which might provide a skewed figure as there are multiple ships that have absolutely no AD or just VL-SRSAM.

Each Indian ship is engaged with 12 missiles by the PLA-N but in reality just two Anti-Ship Ballistic Missiles would be more than enough for a ship equipped with something like Barak-1

There's just AShMs and SAMs on the Chinese ship; they can also have ABMs or ASROCs if they configure. We can't have any of those.

NOTE : As always, there can be errors in data or calculations. Also it's more on an maximum approximation as some of the classes in Indian Navy have distinct armament for each sister ship

Those numbers you quoted for PLAN, are they for just their 16 type 55? What about their other capital ships, that will boost their numbers even more no? That doesn't look well for IN.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Those numbers you quoted for PLAN, are they for just their 16 type 55?

Yup, just 16 Type 055

The whole point of including just one class (Type 055s) was to juxtapose the number of available missiles as compared to our whole frontline fleet; 1,792 cells.

What about their other capital ships, that will boost their numbers even more no?

One reason for not including them was the fact that except for 52Ds they don't field large U-VLS like 55s so I'd had to go through each to get the numbers. Another reason was that if I had included just one more class of PLA-N frontline ship then also I'd have looked like an absolute masscare for us.

But for a rough idea I can do a bit...
1. 16x Type 055 in the aforementioned configuration; 960 AShMs and 1408 SAMs
2. 30x Type 052D; 480 AShMs and 1520 SAMs
3. 3x Type 052C; 24 AShMs and 152 SAMs
4. 40x Type 054A; 320 AShMs and 1280 SAMs
5............
6............
Total: Way too many ships; Hella AShMs and a ton of SAMs

That doesn't look well for IN.

Currently, we're absolutely cooked with two primary pain points according to me

1. We've no means to engage them without getting engaged.
Our max AShM range is 850km and there's is 1,200km.

2. We've nothing to defend us
Their primary offensive weapon is going to be Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile and as of now there's absolutely no ABM capabilities on our ships. Barak-8 may theoretically provide some coverage with hopes and prayers but against a salvo we're just sitting ducks. They on the other hand already have ABMs.

 

[Nibbler]

Yup, just 16 Type 055

The whole point of including just one class (Type 055s) was to juxtapose the number of available missiles as compared to our whole frontline fleet; 1,792 cells.

One reason for not including them was the fact that except for 52Ds they don't field large U-VLS like 55s so I'd had to go through each to get the numbers. Another reason was that if I had included just one more class of PLA-N frontline ship then also I'd have looked like an absolute masscare for us.

But for a rough idea I can do a bit...
1. 16x Type 055 in the aforementioned configuration; 960 AShMs and 1408 SAMs
2. 30x Type 052D; 480 AShMs and 1520 SAMs
3. 3x Type 052C; 24 AShMs and 152 SAMs
4. 40x Type 054A; 320 AShMs and 1280 SAMs
5............
6............
Total: Way too many ships; Hella AShMs and a ton of SAMs

Currently, we're absolutely cooked with two primary pain points according to me

1. We've no means to engage them without getting engaged.
Our max AShM range is 850km and there's is 1,200km.

2. We've nothing to defend us
Their primary offensive weapon is going to be Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile and as of now there's absolutely no ABM capabilities on our ships. Barak-8 may theoretically provide some coverage with hopes and prayers but against a salvo we're just sitting ducks. They on the other hand already have ABMs.

Type 055 and 054 max range ~9000km (wikipedia)


Type 052 max range ~7000km


relax anon

 

[Charlie]

Not related to India but something interesting

View: https://youtu.be/XEM5qz__HOU?si=eITn0meizVZjLbXx


View: https://youtu.be/EUeryhp8HSQ?si=6Mpp00EOjw-3xv4S&t=1548

 

[randombully]

Yup, just 16 Type 055

The whole point of including just one class (Type 055s) was to juxtapose the number of available missiles as compared to our whole frontline fleet; 1,792 cells.

One reason for not including them was the fact that except for 52Ds they don't field large U-VLS like 55s so I'd had to go through each to get the numbers. Another reason was that if I had included just one more class of PLA-N frontline ship then also I'd have looked like an absolute masscare for us.

But for a rough idea I can do a bit...
1. 16x Type 055 in the aforementioned configuration; 960 AShMs and 1408 SAMs
2. 30x Type 052D; 480 AShMs and 1520 SAMs
3. 3x Type 052C; 24 AShMs and 152 SAMs
4. 40x Type 054A; 320 AShMs and 1280 SAMs
5............
6............
Total: Way too many ships; Hella AShMs and a ton of SAMs

Currently, we're absolutely cooked with two primary pain points according to me

1. We've no means to engage them without getting engaged.
Our max AShM range is 850km and there's is 1,200km.

2. We've nothing to defend us
Their primary offensive weapon is going to be Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile and as of now there's absolutely no ABM capabilities on our ships. Barak-8 may theoretically provide some coverage with hopes and prayers but against a salvo we're just sitting ducks. They on the other hand already have ABMs.

My guy in defensive we have the advantage of targeting their "supply ships" and that would hurt their longer term engagement capabilities a lot, we will be more immune to the same damage due to being closer to our shore
Plus our navy will also be backed by ground based assets and also airforce assests like su30with brahmos, their navy won't be.

 

[Nutcracker]

Type 055 and 054 max range ~9000km (wikipedia)
View attachment 17763

Type 052 max range ~7000km
View attachment 17764

relax anon

These vessels exist.

 

[Varoon4]

Pardon the naivete, but would Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore be totally detached and idle, in an outbreak of hostilities between the IN and PLAN?

 

[randombully]

These vessels exist. View attachment 17765

There vessels are their weak points and will be our primary target.

 

[randombully]

Pardon the naivete, but would Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore be totally detached and idle, in an outbreak of hostilities between the IN and PLAN?

Most likely, yes.

 

[Nibbler]

These vessels exist. View attachment 17765

Yeah

Will be hard to do in contested waters.

But they could refuel before they get to contested waters extending range.

BUT we would have a ton of time to see them coming, how many ships can their support ships even refuel, they have to get there and have fuel to actually fight its not a sightseeing cruise etc.

Point is Chinese navy, definitely its surface ships are constructed to break out of first island chain for the moment. No point hyperventilating about how many missles they carry yet.

Also their southern fleet is one of three amongst whom the totals anon above posted are divided. Are we thinking the whole chinese navy is going to jam themselves thru malacca to attack india?

Pardon the naivete, but would Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore be totally detached and idle, in an outbreak of hostilities between the IN and PLAN?

Yea they will. Amerisharts might not.

I'm trying to concieve a situation where this happens nd im not seeing it. I don't think there is any war between india and china that escalates to a naval battle.

1. Their intellegensia doesn't talk about it as much of a possibility.
2. they havent broken out of first island chain

I don't think anyone can hope to contain india in indian ocean. The landmass/coastline is too dominant. It will be the net underlying security provider. Changs will calm down and see that working with us is the only way to secure their shipping lanes. Amerifats have a different level of hubris and may need to be shown a few more capabilities before they belieb.

When they finally get the message we can do what needs to be done. The final solution to the kanglu problem IF YOU CATCH MY DRIFT

 

[Blademaster]

My guy in defensive we have the advantage of targeting their "supply ships" and that would hurt their longer term engagement capabilities a lot, we will be more immune to the same damage due to being closer to our shore
Plus our navy will also be backed by ground based assets and also airforce assests like su30with brahmos, their navy won't be.

That’s why we have that hypersonic anti ship missile that has a range of 1500 miles or something like that. If we can set up a fleet of satellites monitoring the sea lanes and choke points along with additional P-8Is carrying long range anti ship missiles it doesn’t matter whether the PLAN has more missiles than our frontline fleet. I strongly feel that the guided missile destroyers and cruisers are gonna go the way of battleships because now we have long range planes capable of carrying a dozen missiles at faster speed than the destroyers that they would just be overwhelmed. PLAN does not have the equivalent sort of Aegis system that would overcome these challenges posed by long range hypersonic cruise missiles guided by a fleet of satellites and Global Hawk types of surveillance drones.

 

[randombully]

That’s why we have that hypersonic anti ship missile that has a range of 1500 miles or something like that. If we can set up a fleet of satellites monitoring the sea lanes and choke points along with additional P-8Is carrying long range anti ship missiles it doesn’t matter whether the PLAN has more missiles than our frontline fleet. I strongly feel that the guided missile destroyers and cruisers are gonna go the way of battleships because now we have long range planes capable of carrying a dozen missiles at faster speed than the destroyers that they would just be overwhelmed. PLAN does not have the equivalent sort of Aegis system that would overcome these challenges posed by long range hypersonic cruise missiles guided by a fleet of satellites and Global Hawk types of surveillance drones.

Even aegis will struggle against LRASHM.

 

[Fatalis]

We currently have 65 vessels under construction and 63 of them (are being built) in Indian shipyards

1. Samarthak class MPV = 02
2. Kalvari class SSK = 01
3. Visakhapatnam class DDG = 01
4. Nilgiri class FFG = 07
5. Talwar class FFG = 04
6. Mahe class ASWSWC = 08
7. Arnala class ASWSWC = 08
8. Sandhyak class SVL = 02
9. Nistar class DSV = 02
10. Diving Support Craft = 05
11. Fleet Support Ship = 05
12. Cadet Training Ship = 03
13. Next Generation OPV = 11
14. Next Generation Missile Vessel = 06

Total = 65

 

[Ayan Barat]

My guy in defensive we have the advantage of targeting their "supply ships" and that would hurt their longer term engagement capabilities a lot

There vessels are their weak points and will be our primary target.

Supply ships are not Rapido that destroyers call when they're low on fuel and then one lone supply ships slowly starts moving from Dalian, location pe rahiyega Sir, aa rahein hain hum

Every single NTF has its own oiler and replenishment ship that's well protected by the overlapping layers of ADS.

Use some layman's logic, we've 70 vessels in total...they have 50 ships in just one class. Who'd be able to spare three vessels to escort one supply ship in case it's needed?

we will be more immune to the same damage due to being closer to our shore

True

But the counterpoint; our shores would be more susceptible to damage as it'd closer to our fighting forces. Even if a single naval blockade is compromised they'd use that choke point to send in barrage of long ranged cruise missile (800-2000km) and perhaps the their silver bullet, ballistic missiles (1,500km).

Pretty much exactly what happened during Trident and Python but with the tables turned.

Plus our navy will also be backed by ground based assets

Use specific terms for ground based assets...it's just ballistic missiles like Agni-P or LR-AShM or SMART.

And this brings us back to what I've already mentioned as one of biggest weak point in this whole evaluation...they have things to counter ballistic missiles, we don't.

also airforce assests like su30with brahmos

BrahMos is 850km and HQ-19 goes well beyond that.

There won't be any stand-off not to mention the amount of Su-30s you'd need to saturated the ADS

Even aegis will struggle against LRASHM

Feeling paraud Indian army is good but don't go up to this extent especially when you've just one SAM on our ships and that too with no ABM capabilities. Not to mention the fact that our ships still use arm launchers.

Just don't

 

[Ayan Barat]

Type 055 and 054 max range ~9000km

Type 052 max range ~7000km

relax anon

They've more replenishment ships than us to support this little adventure if they decide to. Not to mention the fact that they have regularly employed a huge armada of civilian ships during their wargames with Taiwan as a support element.

And all this is with the assumption that they won't use even a single "Pearl"

 

[Fatalis]

Even aegis will struggle against LRASHM.

Ye thoda jada ho gaya.

US Navy has developed multiple SAMs for different roles and now they are developing GPI for countering hypersonic threats. Each of their vessels can possibly carry:

RIM-116
ESSM
SM-2 Block III B/C
SM-6
SM-3
GPI

And we only carry:
MRSAM

 

[Ayan Barat]

I don't think anyone can hope to contain india in indian ocean.

They might in for just a hit-n-run attack to damage as much ships and infrastructure as possible and then quickly head home/nearest friendly port.

Again a tactic mastered by us during 71.

That’s why we have that hypersonic anti ship missile that has a range of 1500 miles or something like that. If we can set up a fleet of satellites monitoring the sea lanes and choke points along with additional P-8Is carrying long range anti ship missiles it doesn’t matter whether the PLAN has more missiles than our frontline fleet. I strongly feel that the guided missile destroyers and cruisers are gonna go the way of battleships because now we have long range planes capable of carrying a dozen missiles at faster speed than the destroyers that they would just be overwhelmed. PLAN does not have the equivalent sort of Aegis system that would overcome these challenges posed by long range hypersonic cruise missiles guided by a fleet of satellites and Global Hawk types of surveillance drones.

Even I myself had proposed something similar with Andaman and Nicobar as the base for this "rapid action group" after the test of LR-AShM
We can find some post in conversation with Blood

But as always, the biggest weak point is still that fact that our SAM goes up to just Barak-8 and their to HQ-19.
And same for AShMs; it's BrahMos against YJ-21 or even in the case of LR-AShM it's against YJ-21.

They might not have Aegis but what they have is magazine depth. You fire 8 LR-AShM at 55 and it assign two HQ-19s per missile...and it still has 24 SAMs left.
What will happen is let's say a Vishakhapatnam is engaged by 8 YJ-21s?