Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Ayan Barat]

I don't think anyone can hope to contain india in indian ocean.

They might in for just a hit-n-run attack to damage as much ships and infrastructure as possible and then quickly head home/nearest friendly port.

Again a tactic mastered by us during 71.

That’s why we have that hypersonic anti ship missile that has a range of 1500 miles or something like that. If we can set up a fleet of satellites monitoring the sea lanes and choke points along with additional P-8Is carrying long range anti ship missiles it doesn’t matter whether the PLAN has more missiles than our frontline fleet. I strongly feel that the guided missile destroyers and cruisers are gonna go the way of battleships because now we have long range planes capable of carrying a dozen missiles at faster speed than the destroyers that they would just be overwhelmed. PLAN does not have the equivalent sort of Aegis system that would overcome these challenges posed by long range hypersonic cruise missiles guided by a fleet of satellites and Global Hawk types of surveillance drones.

Even I myself had proposed something similar with Andaman and Nicobar as the base for this "rapid action group" after the test of LR-AShM
We can find some post in conversation with Blood

But as always, the biggest weak point is still that fact that our SAM goes up to just Barak-8 and their to HQ-19.
And same for AShMs; it's BrahMos against YJ-21 or even in the case of LR-AShM it's against YJ-21.

They might not have Aegis but what they have is magazine depth. You fire 8 LR-AShM at 55 and it assign two HQ-19s per missile...and it still has 24 SAMs left.
What will happen is let's say a Vishakhapatnam is engaged by 8 YJ-21s?

 

[randombully]

Supply ships are not Rapido that destroyers call when they're low on fuel and then one lone supply ships slowly starts moving from Dalian, location pe rahiyega Sir, aa rahein hain hum

Every single NTF has its own oiler and replenishment ship that's well protected by the overlapping layers of ADS.

Use some layman's logic, we've 70 vessels in total...they have 50 ships in just one class. Who'd be able to spare three vessels to escort one supply ship in case it's needed?

True

But the counterpoint; our shores would be more susceptible to damage as it'd closer to our fighting forces. Even if a single naval blockade is compromised they'd use that choke point to send in barrage of long ranged cruise missile (800-2000km) and perhaps the their silver bullet, ballistic missiles (1,500km).

Pretty much exactly what happened during Trident and Python but with the tables turned.

Use specific terms for ground based assets...it's just ballistic missiles like Agni-P or LR-AShM or SMART.

And this brings us back to what I've already mentioned as one of biggest weak point in this whole evaluation...they have things to counter ballistic missiles, we don't.

BrahMos is 850km and HQ-19 goes well beyond that.

There won't be any stand-off not to mention the amount of Su-30s you'd need to saturated the ADS

Feeling paraud Indian army is good but don't go up to this extent especially when you've just one SAM on our ships and that too with no ABM capabilities. Not to mention the fact that our ships still use arm launchers.

Just don't

Ye thoda jada ho gaya.

US Navy has developed multiple SAMs for different roles and now they are developing GPI for countering hypersonic threats. Each of their vessels can possibly carry:

RIM-116
ESSM
SM-2 Block III B/C
SM-6
SM-3
GPI

And we only carry:
MRSAM

"developing GPI for countering hypersonic threats. "
"Developing"

 

[Ayan Barat]

"developing GPI for countering hypersonic threats. "
"Developing"

There was everything from SM-3 to SM-6 to even THAAD to quad packed ESSMs in his argument...but the only thing that attracted your attention was "developing"

I always like the fact that how you conveniently pick up just one single point from the whole argument and then draw a tangent from that

My Guy in Vishwakarma, the LR-AShM we're discussing since I don't know how many posts is also "developing"

 

[randombully]

There was everything from SM-3 to SM-6 to even THAAD to quad packed ESSMs in his argument...but the only thing that attracted your attention was "developing"

I always like the fact that how you conveniently pick up just one single point from the whole argument and then draw a tangent from that

My Guy in Vishwakarma, the LR-AShM we're discussing since I don't know how many posts is also "developing"

My guy, according to that paper that the German institute published, THAAD had a success rate of about 25% in intercepting " kinzhal" that too when entire battery Worth of missiles(30+) were lobed towards kinzhal.

View: https://youtu.be/E2pqC7_eW8k?si=4sKHpq8CEkKtPDvN
From 2:50.

 

[Ayan Barat]

My guy, according to that paper that the German institute published, THAAD had a success rate of about 25% in intercepting " kinzhal" that too when entire battery Worth of missiles(30+) were lobed towards kinzhal.

View: https://youtu.be/E2pqC7_eW8k?si=4sKHpq8CEkKtPDvN
From 2:50.

See, again this

I always like the fact that how you conveniently pick up just one single point from the whole argument and then draw a tangent from that

We were discussing what and you came up with what

 

[randombully]

See, again this

We were discussing what and you came up with what

Because none of these systems are effective against hypersonic.
SM6 on a US navy ship would have the highest chances against Hypersonics given it's being provided with real time guidance and tracking by Aegis, but still those chances are still low against modern hypersonis, which means lots of missiles would need to be lobed to even have decent chance of intercepting it.
And seeing the result of thaad those lots og missile could be dozen sm6 to intercept a single target.
So why should I focus on sm6, sm2, those quad packed short to medium range ESSM? When they are pretty ineffective against the missiles were talking about.

Their their THAAD which is deisgned to intercept medium range hypersonic ballistic/quasi-ballistic in their terminal only has success rate of 25% even when entire battery Worth of missiles are lobed towards kinzhal.

So Aegis will struggle.

 

[Nibbler]

They've more replenishment ships than us to support this little adventure if they decide to. Not to mention the fact that they have regularly employed a huge armada of civilian ships during their wargames with Taiwan as a support element.

And all this is with the assumption that they won't use even a single "Pearl"

>huge armada
>malacca

wont be a surprise attack at least

the "pearls" have like 2 or 3 ships docked there ever. if you mean for replenishment they have to get there first. also really the only "pearl" thats panned out the way they wanted it to is ream.

myanmar is basket case, kanglu is too scared, sri lanka is too scared, gwadar is on wrong side

 

[Ayan Barat]

At this point if I engage with you then each time you'd just come up with something completely different and I'd more or less just spam this thread.
I've first hand experience of trying to make you understand basics of firearms.

So just gonna concede and leave you in your paradise.

So Aegis will struggle

Yes my Guy, Aegis will struggle
Meanwhile we with our Orekhs and arm launchers would intercept all YJ-21s
Done then

 

[randombully]

At this point if I engage with you then each time you'd just come up with something completely different and I'd more or less just spam this thread.
I've first hand experience of trying to make you understand basics of firearms.

So just gonna concede and leave you in your paradise.

Yes my Guy, Aegis will struggle
Meanwhile we with our Orekhs and arm launchers would intercept all YJ-21s
Done then

Meanwhile we with our Orekhs and arm launchers would intercept all YJ-21s
Done then

I never Said we wouldn't struggle, our airdefense is pathetic against modern threats of our enemies, though we are working on that.
You on other hand were only focusing on our struggle
I just Said "the fact" that Aegis will struggle against LRASHM.
And you were basically offended, how dare I say it.
@Fatalis
The fuck is short-medium range ESSM gonna do against LRASHM?
The fuck will SM2 do against LRASHM, LRASHM will not go near space in its midcourse, it will fly a lot lower.
Now taking the example of THAAD which has such low interception rate against a missile it was literally designed to intercept, kinzhal is not very manurable or have cruise missile like low flight path so similarly SM6 will also struggle, even If its designed to intercept hypersonics in terminal.
Now let's "assume" sm 6 is better than thaad interceptor missiles, specially given it's gonna be given real time data and track of target by Aegis, and it can take on targets of much higher speed and manurablility
But then how much better can it be compared to thaad for its target?" At best"that 25% chances thaad has when all 30+ missiles are launched to intercept( kinzhal) will increase to 35-40%( and i'm assuming these chances against a faster/, more manurable/ less predictable target for sm6) and let's say 12-15 sm6 missiles?
Now, can you call 35-40% chances of hitting a target even when more than dozens of missiles are launched towards the target and " good chance"?

There Is a reason Ameriki's are working on a new missile to take on modern hypersonics.

 

[Fatalis]

I never Said we wouldn't struggle, our airdefense is pathetic against modern threats of our enemies, though we are working on that.
You on other hand were only focusing on our struggle
I just Said "the fact" that Aegis will struggle against LRASHM.
And you were basically offended, how dare I say it.
The fuck is short-medium range ESSM gonna do against LRASHM?
The fuck will SM2 do against LRASHM, LRASHM will not go near space in its midcourse, it will fly a lot lower.
Now taking the example of THAAD which has such low interception rate against a missile it was literally designed to intercept, kinzhal is not very manurable or have cruise missile like low flight path so similarly SM6 will also struggle, even If its designed to intercept hypersonics in terminal.
Now let's "assume" sm 6 is better than thaad interceptor missiles, specially given it's gonna be given real time data and track of target by Aegis, and it can take on targets of much higher speed and manurablility
But then how much better can it be compared to thaad for its target?" At best"that 25% chances thaad has when all 30+ missiles are launched to intercept( kinzhal) will increase to 35-40%( and i'm assuming these chances against a faster/, more manurable/ less predictable target for sm6) and let's say 12-15 sm6 missiles?
Now, can you call 35-40% chances of hitting a target even when more than dozens of missiles are launched towards the target and " good chance"?

There Is a reason Ameriki's are working on a new missile to take on modern hypersonics.

Good thing we are developing a Hypersonic weapon but if the topic is how US Navy gonna defend against LRAShM then we also have to remember that they have ~100 destroyers and each have a megazine depth of 96 cells. How many LRAShM we are planning on building and firing against them. Hypersonic is a niche technology and there is niche counter being developed to counter it. Both of which will be very costly to operate.

 

[randombully]

Good thing we are developing a Hypersonic weapon but if the topic is how US Navy gonna defend against LRAShM then we also have to remember that they have ~100 destroyers and each have a megazine depth of 96 cells. How many LRAShM we are planning on building and firing against them. Hypersonic is a niche technology and there is niche counter being developed to counter it. Both of which will be very costly to operate.

I'm not saying were gonna win against US.
My point was just about LR-ASHM being highly effective against even Aegis

I know our air defense is pathetic with max 80-90km range of barak and being somewhat effective against missiles like iskander Compared to china and US

 

[Nibbler]

Good thing we are developing a Hypersonic weapon but if the topic is how US Navy gonna defend against LRAShM then we also have to remember that they have ~100 destroyers and each have a megazine depth of 96 cells. How many LRAShM we are planning on building and firing against them. Hypersonic is a niche technology and there is niche counter being developed to counter it. Both of which will be very costly to operate.

its not about sinking the whole USN. its about being being credibly able to sink a few ships.

how many is a few?

just sit down and ask yourself. how many kanglu lives is one arleigh burke worth

 

[Nibbler]

people need to get out of mindset of ww2 total war scenario.

the goal should be to dominate south asia and no power should feel comfortable interveining in any kinetic action taken here.

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Twin Engine Deck-Based Fighter (TEDBF) Program Gets MoD Clearance, CCS Approval Expected in 2025 – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Indian navy it seems require above 100 TEDF aircrafts.
I hope they must instead of framing the aircraft with "always sanction hungry US" engines. They should frame aircraft with Kaveri afterburner version.

 

[Anants]

They might in for just a hit-n-run attack to damage as much ships and infrastructure as possible and then quickly head home/nearest friendly port.

Again a tactic mastered by us during 71.

Even I myself had proposed something similar with Andaman and Nicobar as the base for this "rapid action group" after the test of LR-AShM
We can find some post in conversation with Blood

But as always, the biggest weak point is still that fact that our SAM goes up to just Barak-8 and their to HQ-19.
And same for AShMs; it's BrahMos against YJ-21 or even in the case of LR-AShM it's against YJ-21.

They might not have Aegis but what they have is magazine depth. You fire 8 LR-AShM at 55 and it assign two HQ-19s per missile...and it still has 24 SAMs left.
What will happen is let's say a Vishakhapatnam is engaged by 8 YJ-21s?

Ayan what I think surprise from China shall be their fishing boats and USVs swarms - which shall neutralize or tie up your naval assets. All those big swarm of fishing boats supposedly trawling for fishes around world - are something else in nature - I have huge hunch. I know @Binayak95 would say - they shall be blow out of water in no time. China knows it. Their use is to hold your attention enough for other war element to sneak in. Very frankly Kind of Mongolian war tactic.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Ayan what I think surprise from China shall be their fishing boats and USVs swarms - which shall neutralize or tie up your naval assets. All those big swarm of fishing boats supposedly trawling for fishes around world - are something else in nature - I have huge hunch. I know @Binayak95 would say - they shall be blow out of water in no time. China knows it. Their use is to hold your attention enough for other war element to sneak in. Very frankly Kind of Mongolian war tactic.

Yup, I already touched on that subject but no one seemed to be interested in that.

they have regularly employed a huge armada of civilian ships during their wargames with Taiwan as a support element.

If I may focus a bit on this topic...
• Maritime Safety Administration ≈ 55
• Coast Guard ≈ 350
• Aux Fleet ≈ 150
• Maritime Transport Border Defence ≈ 40

Definitely a single vessel won't be absolutely any threat for us like a single 55 or 52 would be but the quality here comes from quantity...they have 600 of these. Almost half of them have a good sized flight deck, can be equipped with ground based weapons and if nothing else, then can be a formidable support fleet.

Now the best part is that these are just those that we know would definitely be absorbed by PLA-N the day war breaks out like say CRPF or BSF. And after this comes those infamous "fishing boats" you mentioned; "the ghost fleet" which no one knows about with surety.

• Total estimation is north of 5,00,000 vessels
• Definitely most of them are wooden, car engined, short ranged ones but some 15,000 of these are pretty potent from improvised naval use
• Out of these some 2,000 are considered to a serious threat by Naval Intelligence as they have a history of island hopping far from mainland China. So much so that the big ones are continuously monitored and Navies of SoKo or JMSDF are alerted as soon as they start getting closer.

People consider battle to be a 1:1 thing like 100 T-90s are better than 500 T-64s. But the fact is that in reality everything happens pretty much in assymetry.
A Chinese fishing boats doesn't need to have hidden AShM or a weapon with warhead big enough to even puncture the hull...it just needs to "engage" the weapons-sensors or even easier, the humans long enough for a YJ-21 Ballistic Missiles to impact it. And fishing boat can very easily do this by discreetly utilising an USV/USuV/torpedo.
The Bayraktar was in no way capable of even damaging the Moskva but it was enough of a diversion for the Neptunes to strike.

 

[Blademaster]

Yup, I already touched on that subject but no one seemed to be interested in that.

If I may focus a bit on this topic...
• Maritime Safety Administration ≈ 55
• Coast Guard ≈ 350
• Aux Fleet ≈ 150
• Maritime Transport Border Defence ≈ 40

Definitely a single vessel won't be absolutely any threat for us like a single 55 or 52 would be but the quality here comes from quantity...they have 600 of these. Almost half of them have a good sized flight deck, can be equipped with ground based weapons and if nothing else, then can be a formidable support fleet.

Now the best part is that these are just those that we know would definitely be absorbed by PLA-N the day war breaks out like say CRPF or BSF. And after this comes those infamous "fishing boats" you mentioned; "the ghost fleet" which no one knows about with surety.

• Total estimation is north of 5,00,000 vessels
• Definitely most of them are wooden, car engined, short ranged ones but some 15,000 of these are pretty potent from improvised naval use
• Out of these some 2,000 are considered to a serious threat by Naval Intelligence as they have a history of island hopping far from mainland China. So much so that the big ones are continuously monitored and Navies of SoKo or JMSDF are alerted as soon as they start getting closer.

People consider battle to be a 1:1 thing like 100 T-90s are better than 500 T-64s. But the fact is that in reality everything happens pretty much in assymetry.
A Chinese fishing boats doesn't need to have hidden AShM or a weapon with warhead big enough to even puncture the hull...it just needs to "engage" the weapons-sensors or even easier, the humans long enough for a YJ-21 Ballistic Missiles to impact it. And fishing boat can very easily do this by discreetly utilising an USV/USuV/torpedo.
The Bayraktar was in no way capable of even damaging the Moskva but it was enough of a diversion for the Neptunes to strike.

Sorry these boats simply do not have the range to make it past the 1st island chain and you would seriously need lot of support ships to support these type of fleets on a long term basis. They have no staying power. As the saying goes, amateurs think tactics, professionals think logistics. And that is true and applicable here.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Valid argument but there are some nuances

Sorry these boats simply do not have the range to make it past the 1st island chain and you would seriously need lot of support ships to support these type of fleets on a long term basis. They have no staying power.

Yes but what are "these" boats? There are 5,00,000 boats, about which exactly are you talking

A wooden fishing trawler? Then you're absolutely correct in your assessment.
A Sucha-II class patrol ship of the coast guard? It has a reported range of more than 10,000km

There was reason why I excluded 4,98,000 ships and mentioned just 2,000 instead of outright saying China has half a million boats. Or why I counted just Maritime Safety Administration, Coast Guard, Aux Fleet and Maritime Transport Border Defence and excluded things like Ministry of Transport, Scientific Vessels and Maritime Militia.
Because by reducing the number to I don't know, maybe 1% we can kind of filter out most of the low endurance vessels. Again I'm not saying that all 2,500 of these vessels would be able to go as far away as mainland America because this number would definitely include some things like inshore patrol vessels; but it would be way smaller in terms of percentage.

Since yesterday I'm playing the devil's advocate for PLA-N but as of now only mentioned ships like 55s and 52s...and completely ignored those Type 22s. Those are tiny, fast, carries 8x AShMs but perhaps the most dangerous stats is the fact that China has more than 80 of those.
Endurance was the primary reason why I excluded them, followed by the fact that they've a comical air defence.
So yeah, I'm well aware of this endurance point that you're trying to highlight.

As the saying goes, amateurs think tactics, professionals think logistics. And that is true and applicable here.

Exactly
And that was the whole point for bringing this specific topic, they've quite a robust support element.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Type 055 and 054 max range ~9000km (wikipedia)
View attachment 17763

Type 052 max range ~7000km
View attachment 17764

relax anon

Yes. A&N is critical if we want to dictate the war at Malacca strait. But problem we are facing is numerical advantage of PLAN Ships.

On the other hand ships at our end still do not have UVLS. Our AD systems lacks ABM. Our ships still not armed sufficiently due to lack of UVLS/ Cost factor.

We have expensive . But no Subsonic missile in large numbers. Nirbhay, ITCM were in development state right now. Hypersonic kid is new one, but currently not ship launched.

Navy/DRDO needs to develop the UVLS to improve the packaging. Otherwise we are bleeding money due to some basic mistakes.

 

[Blademaster]

Valid argument but there are some nuances

Yes but what are "these" boats? There are 5,00,000 boats, about which exactly are you talking

A wooden fishing trawler? Then you're absolutely correct in your assessment.
A Sucha-II class patrol ship of the coast guard? It has a reported range of more than 10,000km

There was reason why I excluded 4,98,000 ships and mentioned just 2,000 instead of outright saying China has half a million boats. Or why I counted just Maritime Safety Administration, Coast Guard, Aux Fleet and Maritime Transport Border Defence and excluded things like Ministry of Transport, Scientific Vessels and Maritime Militia.
Because by reducing the number to I don't know, maybe 1% we can kind of filter out most of the low endurance vessels. Again I'm not saying that all 2,500 of these vessels would be able to go as far away as mainland America because this number would definitely include some things like inshore patrol vessels; but it would be way smaller in terms of percentage.

Since yesterday I'm playing the devil's advocate for PLA-N but as of now only mentioned ships like 55s and 52s...and completely ignored those Type 22s. Those are tiny, fast, carries 8x AShMs but perhaps the most dangerous stats is the fact that China has more than 80 of those.
Endurance was the primary reason why I excluded them, followed by the fact that they've a comical air defence.
So yeah, I'm well aware of this endurance point that you're trying to highlight.

Exactly
And that was the whole point for bringing this specific topic, they've quite a robust support element.

Even with these boats they need significant logistic support. I mean sustaining a fleet of 2000 boats is no easy task and will set off every bell and alarm. No way it’s gonna happen.