Indo-China Border & LAC

[hurrians]

Instead of binaries

Very apt wording but it was not I that introduced the concept of border before boarder (as one author puts it) , iam more pragmatic than I seem, anyway what iam really interested is what was the gain by such binary approach and what will be the gain after this uturn and in my opinion Chinese needn't be sent any signal as trade was/is happening in a brisk pace even with border confrontation.

 

[Azaad]

Very apt wording but it was not I that introduced the concept of border before boarder (as one author puts it) , iam more pragmatic than I seem, anyway what iam really interested is what was the gain by such binary approach and what will be the gain after this uturn and in my opinion Chinese needn't be sent any signal as trade was/is happening in a brisk pace even with border confrontation.

What was the situation in Manipur , BD & Myanmar in Apr - June 2020 ? Once you've answered that , compare it to what's it today . And these little games of Jaishankar relenting a bit on China just before Modi's visit to Washington or some high profile meeting or statement or gesture by us on the eve of Modi visiting Xi will continue till the balloon goes up which isn't too far off.

We need as much time as we can buy till then

 

[Ultraman]

Very apt wording but it was not I that introduced the concept of border before boarder (as one author puts it) , iam more pragmatic than I seem, anyway what iam really interested is what was the gain by such binary approach and what will be the gain after this uturn and in my opinion Chinese needn't be sent any signal as trade was/is happening in a brisk pace even with border confrontation.

"border before broader" , lol indian shakespeare .

indian govt started stand off under assumption that chinese would have difficulty pushing troops to tibet and keeping them there. chinese thought same thing , indians wont be able to deploy and keep troops at high altitudes .

atleast we havent waved the white flag yet . there was news of demchok disengagement comming . lets see how that will look

 

[hurrians]

What was the situation in Manipur , BD & Myanmar in Apr - June 2020 ? Once you've answered that , compare it to what's it today . And these little games of Jaishankar relenting a bit on China just before Modi's visit to Washington or some high profile meeting or statement or gesture by us on the eve of Modi visiting Xi will continue till the balloon goes up which isn't too far off.

We need as much time as we can buy till then

.Manipur happened due to our pandering to Americans, by letting in so called refugees under American leli pressure
.I don't think GOI is a fan of Sheikh hasina ( not withstanding the temp asylum granted) tipping point may have been her threat if you don't China will invest in teesta etc
. regarding Myanmar it's a complex play of various actors including India which strives to maintain its strategic interest

And I don't believe none of this warrants shattering the semblance of protest that GOI was putting up with China while allowing trade to continue.

An interesting anecdote " the so called hot mic incident of Biden"

Biden’s hot-mic moment at Quad: ‘China behaving aggressively… testing us all’

“We believe Xi Jinping is looking to focus on domestic economic challenges and minimise the turbulence in China,” Biden told leaders at the summit while reporters were leaving the venue.

indianexpress.com

 

[Hari Sud]

View: https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/status/1837152992065376328?s=19

Forget about our Hypersonic missiles , we haven't yet developed sub sonic SS LRCM like the ITCM / Nirbhay what to speak of the ALCM version ? All this is going to come back to haunt us big time in the near future.

Chinese say more than what they deliver?

 

[Azaad]

.Manipur happened due to our pandering to Americans, by letting in so called refugees under American leli pressure
.I don't think GOI is a fan of Sheikh hasina ( not withstanding the temp asylum granted) tipping point may have been her threat if you don't China will invest in teesta etc
. regarding Myanmar it's a complex play of various actors including India which strives to maintain its strategic interest

And I don't believe none of this warrants shattering the semblance of protest that GOI was putting up with China while allowing trade to continue.

An interesting anecdote " the so called hot mic incident of Biden"

Biden’s hot-mic moment at Quad: ‘China behaving aggressively… testing us all’

“We believe Xi Jinping is looking to focus on domestic economic challenges and minimise the turbulence in China,” Biden told leaders at the summit while reporters were leaving the venue.

indianexpress.com

Manipur happened is because we don't have adequate border security infrastructure in place . Not in Manipur , not in most of the NE if not all the NE .

Did you forget the Chin tribe aligned to the Mizos streaming into Mizoram since early 2021 once there was a coup in Myanmar in spite of repeated warnings by the GoI not to take in refugees ?

Not a fan of SHW because there was no alternative . Whatever we get is either the Younus type who's 10x worse or the Khalida Zia who'd be 20x worse or some Jamaat stooge who'd be 50x worse .

SHW also used this predicament of India's to her own advantage till she ran out of luck. Trust you understand the equation better now.

Regarding China , everyone including India seems to be testing the waters & to that list I'd also include China , which should explain the mic drop .

 

[Vishnugupt]

Unlikely true for anything you say above. Surpassing with unreliable military hardware is one thing but using it with confidence is other. Numbers are Chinese way of intimidation. How many battles have they fought with these third rate numbers. That is why they do not fight but intimidate and throw numbers at people like you.

This is what Western media tells you like they were saying similar about Russian weapons.

Similarly, Western weapons were tested in many battle fields but failed to yield similar result in Ukraine.

Habit of discrediting other's sophistication in the field of military is suicidal.

In the war you need resources, rapid replacement of weapons and man power. China have everything today.

 

[Screambowl]

India China border skirmish should become biggest example of green initiative to protect environment. Both countries must get Nobel Peace Prize for Environment protection. No fire no smoke no exploitation of natural resources. Only used stones, boots, punches and bayonets.

 

[Azaad]

India China border skirmish should become biggest example of green initiative to protect environment. Both countries must get Nobel Peace Prize for Environment protection. No fire no smoke no exploitation of natural resources. Only used stones, boots, punches and bayonets.

We're preparing for a post apocalyptic war .

 

[hurrians]

"Are we prepared to accept the “new normal” created by China?"

It seems Chinese have succeeded 75% in making us accept the change of facts on the ground.

Weighing in on business as usual with China

India must decide which sectors of its economy it can selectively allow Chinese FDI, and keep in mind the interests of its national security and industrial development

www.thehindu.com

 

[Hari Sud]

"Are we prepared to accept the “new normal” created by China?"

It seems Chinese have succeeded 75% in making us accept the change of facts on the ground.

Weighing in on business as usual with China

India must decide which sectors of its economy it can selectively allow Chinese FDI, and keep in mind the interests of its national security and industrial development

www.thehindu.com

You are Rahul Gandhi follower, who believes that India has lost a huge chunk of territory, although his grandfather Nehru responsible for it.

In fact the Chinese have withdrawn 5 km from Galwan River clash point to a more defensive position.

In Pangong Lake area now an unmarked boundary is well defined at point 4.

In Despang area they have not occupied anything except prevented Indian Patrols from proceeding further.

Demchok area; the Chinese are so afraid that India will reoccupy the Kailash heights and threaten them that they sent only occasional Yak to graze in our land.

No, India has not accepted anything except whatever during Nehru era they occupied and got away.

 

[hurrians]

You are Rahul Gandhi follower, who believes that India has lost a huge chunk of territory, although his grandfather Nehru responsible for it.

In fact the Chinese have withdrawn 5 km from Galwan River clash point to a more defensive position.

In Pangong Lake area now an unmarked boundary is well defined at point 4.

In Despang area they have not occupied anything except prevented Indian Patrols from proceeding further.

Demchok area; the Chinese are so afraid that India will reoccupy the Kailash heights and threaten them that they sent only occasional Yak to graze in our land.

No, India has not accepted anything except whatever during Nehru era they occupied and got away.

"There is also some political risk. The Modi government has dismissed opposition accusations that it has accepted Chinese gains and a new normal at the border. However, domestic critics will continue to scrutinise any claims of a “return to peace and tranquillity” (the government’s stated metric) and whether concessions are made in the search for stability."

Possibility of an India- China Deal: Tactical thaw unlikely to shift strategic rivalry

Four years ago, a fatal military crisis at the India-China border took their relationship to a new low, where it has largely remained. In recent months,

organiser.org

Next you will accuse organiser of being a mouthpiece of pappu, unfortunately inspite of your age your strategic thinking is like the many teenagers on online forums.

Try to not see strategic issues through the lens of politics.

 

[Hari Sud]

"There is also some political risk. The Modi government has dismissed opposition accusations that it has accepted Chinese gains and a new normal at the border. However, domestic critics will continue to scrutinise any claims of a “return to peace and tranquillity” (the government’s stated metric) and whether concessions are made in the search for stability."

Possibility of an India- China Deal: Tactical thaw unlikely to shift strategic rivalry

Four years ago, a fatal military crisis at the India-China border took their relationship to a new low, where it has largely remained. In recent months,

organiser.org

Next you will accuse organiser of being a mouthpiece of pappu, unfortunately inspite of your age your strategic thinking is like the many teenagers on online forums.

Try to not see strategic issues through the lens of politics.

Nonsense……

 

[Ultraman]

You are Rahul Gandhi follower, who believes that India has lost a huge chunk of territory, although his grandfather Nehru responsible for it.

In fact the Chinese have withdrawn 5 km from Galwan River clash point to a more defensive position.

In Pangong Lake area now an unmarked boundary is well defined at point 4.

In Despang area they have not occupied anything except prevented Indian Patrols from proceeding further.

Demchok area; the Chinese are so afraid that India will reoccupy the Kailash heights and threaten them that they sent only occasional Yak to graze in our land.

No, India has not accepted anything except whatever during Nehru era they occupied and got away.

almost all things u wrote are wrong. please stop this fanboyism

galwan valley : most of buffer zone is on our side of LAC , LAC was not at pp14 , LOP was at pp14 - ie line of patrolling

depsang bulge : chinese salami sliced over 900 sqkm in over a 12 year period starting during upa era

demchok: chinese crossed the lac and are occupying our grazing land . this has strategic implication . they are after demchok village.

pp17a : buffer zone mostly on our side , shifted towards indian side by .5 or 1 km

pp15 : again bufferzone mostly on our side, we got kicked out entirely out the valley from pp16 , we had to shift out pp16 to so that chinese agree to the bufferzone

pangongtso was only one in our favour but even there army had to remove boat peir .

 

[Ultraman]

"Are we prepared to accept the “new normal” created by China?"

It seems Chinese have succeeded 75% in making us accept the change of facts on the ground.

Weighing in on business as usual with China

India must decide which sectors of its economy it can selectively allow Chinese FDI, and keep in mind the interests of its national security and industrial development

www.thehindu.com

govt hasnt agreed to anything so far . lets wait and see .

i dont think we will bend the knee , worst case scenario new buffer zone will be mostly on our side . not a big lose .

what ever happens in ladakh , in AP Chinese are preparing for next conflict. no option but to pour in 1000s of crores worth of infra there


View: https://x.com/Mukambo1987/status/1836434520637063643

 

[jaijaganath]

almost all things u wrote are wrong. please stop this fanboyism

galwan valley : most of buffer zone is on our side of LAC , LAC was not at pp14 , LOP was at pp14 - ie line of patrolling

depsang bulge : chinese salami sliced over 900 sqkm in over a 12 year period starting during upa era

demchok: chinese crossed the lac and are occupying our grazing land . this has strategic implication . they are after demchok village.

pp17a : buffer zone mostly on our side , shifted towards indian side by .5 or 1 km

pp15 : again bufferzone mostly on our side, we got kicked out entirely out the valley from pp16 , we had to shift out pp16 to so that chinese agree to the bufferzone

pangongtso was only one in our favour but even there army had to remove boat peir .

Yes u are right about depsang and demchok
In Gogra both sides went back from their usual patrolling and surveillance region
In pp-15 yes we went back further from alpha 3
That is bcoz having pp-16 would give no significant advantage rather a threat for us to stay there
It was our decision bcoz road leading to pp-15 is barely 1km away during conflict which seemed evident at that time we would face slaughter
Moreover pp-16 does have helipad nearby so balance is maintained

If u remember we had discussed earlier

 

[DingDong]

"There is also some political risk. The Modi government has dismissed opposition accusations that it has accepted Chinese gains and a new normal at the border. However, domestic critics will continue to scrutinise any claims of a “return to peace and tranquillity” (the government’s stated metric) and whether concessions are made in the search for stability."

Possibility of an India- China Deal: Tactical thaw unlikely to shift strategic rivalry

Four years ago, a fatal military crisis at the India-China border took their relationship to a new low, where it has largely remained. In recent months,

organiser.org

Next you will accuse organiser of being a mouthpiece of pappu, unfortunately inspite of your age your strategic thinking is like the many teenagers on online forums.

Try to not see strategic issues through the lens of politics.

After the Balakot air strike some jobless defense experts in India supported the Pakistani position that was "some trees got uprooted and few crows died". In reality, Azhar Masood and his whole family tree seems to have vanished from the material world ever since that event, never to be seen again.

Let us not treat these opinion pieces which might very well be the WIKIPEDIA-style hit jobs as the "absolute truth". Some opinion pieces even claim that we lost 2000 sqkm territory after the Galwan clashes without providing any credible information to support their claims.

People make claims and counter claims in the public space based on their affiliations and motives, making a false statement on the floor of the parliament is another matter, it constitutes a criminal offense. I would rather trust the government's official statements in the parliament over these media reports until or unless those reports are proven through facts and figures.

 

[Ultraman]

Yes u are right about depsang and demchok
In Gogra both sides went back from their usual patrolling and surveillance region
In pp-15 yes we went back further from alpha 3
That is bcoz having pp-16 would give no significant advantage rather a threat for us to stay there
It was our decision bcoz road leading to pp-15 is barely 1km away during conflict which seemed evident at that time we would face slaughter
Moreover pp-16 does have helipad nearby so balance is maintained

If u remember we had discussed earlier

we moved back at pp16 , because that is what chinese demanded .

govt says deescalation happened in gogra - all is fine , reality they were still doing build up there after , 1 regiment artys aimed directly at gogra and beyond . they are also building some tunnel just outside of lac , god know what for .

 

[jaijaganath]

we moved back at pp16 , because that is what chinese demanded .

govt says deescalation happened in gogra - all is fine , reality they were still doing build up there after , 1 regiment artys aimed directly at gogra and beyond . they are also building some tunnel just outside of lac , god know what for .

I never found any source were Chinese asked us to move back from pp-16
Afaik it was logical to move back from pp-16 as it could have be disadvantageous for us
But that doesn't shift our strategic balance bcoz as far as I remember our logistics is better here than pp-15 due to helipads and roads
Moreover these were temporary buffer zones that were made to ease tensions latter on patrolling can be done by both the sides
But I don't have any info post 2023

Coming to disengagement jumla it's just farce both sides maintaining troops and building infra for future conflict
It's just that due to temporary buffer zones situation is bit stable

 

[hurrians]

making a false statement on the floor of the parliament

Article 105(2) of the Indian Constitution

Time and again what territory is lost or not is being discussed, but iam more interested in the gains and loses due to uturn on 'border before broader'.
This policy was not my construct and no compelling explanation(officially) has been given for agreeing with Chinese advice of keeping border issues in its appropriate place.

Iam not against normalisation (but it should not be at our expense alone)and I don't view this issue politically.