LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[Spitfire IX]

Choose one

We don't have money to buy Rafales ? Excuse me sir aren't we the 5th largest economy, and soon to be 3rd ? Egypt being 31st in economy rankings has 54 Rafales, did they sell their Pyramids to buy ?

If there are no Rafales available for delivery before Tejas Mk2 and AMCA (possibly) fly, isn't it better to accept that India has screwed up on Rafale ordering? It was left too late. How could ordering more Rafale today or tomorrow mitigate India's shortage of fighters in the next few years?

 

[mist_consecutive]

“Hate, friends “ - no such things in geo politics. If others hate us so be it, as long as there is not action taken to hurt us economically or militarily. And I need not tell you there are no ‘friends’ in geo politics. Just interests and national security.

No action against us ? We are already starting to see...

• Manipur violence being fueled by CIA
• Revival of infiltration & terrorism in J&K (ofc with the blessing of America)
• GE engine delays, and we will see further such issues going forward.

Don't kid yourself about the US and the West. They only care enough about us to get us to ditch Russia. Once we do that, we have no value because then no one else would trust us and US and the West would ditch us in a jiffy and we would have lost the trust of a time trusted ally forever.

So no, I disagree with all of your points above. Modi is doing the right thing by making sure that India keeps her time tested ally and all weather friend, Russia no matter how much pressure US brings.

Do not be so short sighted.

India is too big to be "ditched" and ignored. We can always cozy up back to Russia. But we need to understand Russia is a declining state, and it has no future. Smart countries are either aligning themselves with America/Europe or China. 20-30 years from now, Russia will de-facto vassal state of China anyway, no matter how much good relations we have with them.

But I digress, this is LCA thread, and I am discussing geopolitics.

 

[Spitfire IX]

HAL officials on Thursday acknowledged the engine delay issue but said the plane maker was working towards resolving it and has plans in place to ensure that the project doesn’t suffer.

“We are hoping to get some F404 engines to deliver 16 Mk-1A aircraft in FY 2024-25. If there is more delay, HAL will still keep building the planes and fly them with Category B engines (reserve ones). When the GE engines come, we will fit those on the aircraft and deliver the planes to IAF,” an official said.

Of course the project will suffer if the correct engines to stick in the frames are absent when they should be installed.

What is the point of building Mk1A's with non-standard engines, swapping them out for IN20 engines when available, then delivering them to IAF? What bright spark came up with that idea?

 

[Azaad]

GE Aerospace says working with HAL to fix new Tejas LCA engine supply delay

New Delhi: US engine maker GE Aerospace on Friday said it is working with state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to fix issues related to the delay in the supply of its F4O4 engines for the Tejas light combat aircraft (LCA Mk-1A) programme, attributing it to supply chain bottlenecks in the aerospace industry.

The supply of the F404 engines, delayed by around ten months, has a direct bearing on the new fighter jet’s delivery timeline.

The aerospace industry continues to experience unprecedented supply chain pressures, a GE Aerospace spokesperson said. “GE Aerospace is working with our partner HAL and suppliers to resolve constraints and deliver F404-IN20 engines for the LCA Mk1 (A) program.”

The statement was in response to HT queries on the reasons for the delay and steps being taken to fix the problem, as the programme is crucial for the Indian Air Force, which is grappling with a shortage of fighter squadrons.

It came a day after HT reported that the IAF was concerned about the current pace of the LCA Mk-1A programme because of the possible risks a delay in the induction of new fighter planes could pose to the air force’s combat effectiveness, and has flagged the hot-button issue to plane maker HAL, calling for timely execution of the Rs.48,000-crore contract for 83 jets.

To be sure, the delivery of the 16 fighters and the ones to follow, however, hinges on GE Aerospace’s ability to speed up deliveries of the engines, as the few with HAL are insufficient to meet the requirement.

Many in the air force are sceptical about the LCA Mk-1A deadlines being met, and one of the main reasons for that is the lingering delay in the supply of the F404 engines. The single-engine Mk-1A will be a replacement for the IAF’s Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 fighter.

HAL officials on Thursday acknowledged the engine delay issue but said the plane maker was working towards resolving it and has plans in place to ensure that the project doesn’t suffer.

“We are hoping to get some F404 engines to deliver 16 Mk-1A aircraft in FY 2024-25. If there is more delay, HAL will still keep building the planes and fly them with Category B engines (reserve ones). When the GE engines come, we will fit those on the aircraft and deliver the planes to IAF,” an official said.

Even as doubts shroud the delivery schedule of the LCA Mk-1A jets, more are to be ordered soon. In April, the defence ministry issued a tender to HAL for the proposed acquisition of 97 more LCA Mk-1As to strengthen the air force’s capabilities. The new fighter planes are expected to cost around Rs.67,000 crore.

HAL is looking at a long-term partnership with GE Aerospace. The two firms signed a memorandum of understanding in Washington in June 2023 to produce 99 F414 engines for the future LCA Mk-2 programme during PM Narendra Modi’s visit. The deal will involve an 80% transfer of technology (ToT) and is estimated to be worth around $1 billion.

The ToT for the F414s will cover 11 critical areas many of which were entirely off-limits more than a decade ago when the US and India began talks on the possible production of the engines in the country. Back then, the US agreed to only 58% technology transfer, keeping a string of key engine technologies out of India’s reach, as previously reported by HT.

The F414 has evolved from the F404 engine that powers the existing Mk-1 aircraft and will power the new Mk-1A variants and is imported from the US. The local production of the F414 engines is expected to result in the Mk-2 jets having an indigenous content of 75% compared to 55%-60% in Mk-1A and 50% in Mk-1.

Forty Mk-1 jets operated by IAF are in the initial operational clearance (IOC) and the more advanced final operational clearance (FOC) configurations — the first variants of LCA.

HAL will set up a new engine complex for producing the F414 engines as existing capacities are insufficient for the programme.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.hi...engine-for-tejas-lca-101720787506339-amp.html

With the GE - 414 deal in the bag & the advance knowledge IAF would be placing a repeat order with HAL for 97 nos Mk-1a , I wonder why didn't MoD / GoI broach the subject about licence mfg GE - 404 TFs in India as well .

With a requirement now poised to be ~ 200 nos this is a strategic item too .

 

[Cyclops]

Its not any arm twisting, geopolitical pressure tactic or any of it.
Thanks to sanctions, China has the easiest access to Russian titanium. Them chinks are hoarding most of the titanium and charging exorbitant amounts to export - in exchange for flight computers and FPGAs for russian missiles.

There's a global shortage of titanium which has affected Indian production of AL31Fs, RD33s and Sukhoi frames. Which is why Modi went to Moscow to secure a titanium supply. Which we will then pass on to the Americans for our engines.

Welcome to the cold war 2 - where enemies sell each other stuff through baniyas.

What's quadruply annoying is that India has one of the highest deposits of titanium-iron ores in the world but we keep importing 100s of million worth because some freakin offshore-mineral Act thing hasn't been reworked to allow private players.

Bureaucracy will kill us.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

With the GE - 414 deal in the bag & the advance knowledge IAF would be placing a repeat order with HAL for 97 nos Mk-1a , I wonder why didn't MoD / GoI broach the subject about licence mfg GE - 404 TFs in India as well .

With a requirement now poised to be ~ 200 nos this is a strategic item too .

They did offer us licence manufacturing but with large orders. Basically mid life upgrade orders were needed.

 

[Azaad]

They did offer us licence manufacturing but with large orders. Basically mid life upgrade orders were needed.

If 200 nos isn't a large order I don't know what is ? Besides I think MoD wasn't interested then for they had their eyes set on the GE- 414 deal .

We need knowledge of their advanced mfg technology if we're to replicate it in the mfg of our own 110-120 KN clean sheet TF for AMCA Mk-2 .

Ideally we needed a lot more but that's a different story. Had we accepted their terms for the GE - 404 mfg it'd jeopardized our deal for the GE - 414. We definitely wouldn't have received the terms we did for the GE - 414

Once we had the GE - 414 deal in the bag it was time to attempt a similar one for the GE - 404 as well.

 

[GGBOZZ]

GE Aerospace signs MOU with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to produce fighter jet engines for Indian Air Force | GE Aerospace News

GE Aerospace’s F414 engines would be co-produced in India to power the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mk2WASHINGTON, D.C. – June 22, 2023 – GE (NYSE: GE) – GE Aerospace announced today that it has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to produce fighter...

www.geaerospace.com

This release by GE states that only 99 f414 will be manufactured in India .

If 200 nos isn't a large order I don't know what is ? Besides I think MoD wasn't interested then for they had their eyes set on the GE- 414 deal .

We need knowledge of their advanced mfg technology if we're to replicate it in the mfg of our own 110-120 KN clean sheet TF for AMCA Mk-2 .

Ideally we needed a lot more but that's a different story. Had we accepted their terms for the GE - 404 mfg it'd jeopardized our deal for the GE - 414. We definitely wouldn't have received the terms we did for the GE - 414

Once we had the GE - 414 deal in the bag it was time to attempt a similar one for the GE - 404 as well.

The fine print says that GE will only provide about 50% transfer of technology . How useful would that be in the long run considering that the new engine is developed from the learnings that were received as part of Kaveri development

 

[AYoungBrotchen]

GE Aerospace signs MOU with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to produce fighter jet engines for Indian Air Force | GE Aerospace News

GE Aerospace’s F414 engines would be co-produced in India to power the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mk2WASHINGTON, D.C. – June 22, 2023 – GE (NYSE: GE) – GE Aerospace announced today that it has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to produce fighter...

www.geaerospace.com

This release by GE states that only 99 f414 will be manufactured in India .

The fine print says that GE will only provide about 50% transfer of technology . How useful would that be in the long run considering that the new engine is developed from the learnings that were received as part of Kaveri development

GE has an earlier order for 99 F414s. It clearly states GE will manufacture them. The engines to be produced in India are to be made by HAL, not GE.

 

[GGBOZZ]

GE has an earlier order for 99 F414s. It clearly states GE will manufacture them. The engines to be produced in India are to be made by HAL, not GE.

Yeah but there's been no official announcement of a facility to manufacture these right ? Like we have been backstabbed on the topic of ToT by all these companies . Safran and dassault are one example . So like is it official ?

 

[Azaad]

GE Aerospace signs MOU with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to produce fighter jet engines for Indian Air Force | GE Aerospace News

GE Aerospace’s F414 engines would be co-produced in India to power the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Mk2WASHINGTON, D.C. – June 22, 2023 – GE (NYSE: GE) – GE Aerospace announced today that it has signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to produce fighter...

www.geaerospace.com

This release by GE states that only 99 f414 will be manufactured in India .

The fine print says that GE will only provide about 50% transfer of technology . How useful would that be in the long run considering that the new engine is developed from the learnings that were received as part of Kaveri development

I read that press release thrice. Where exactly did you read only 50% ToT will be undertaken ? Estimates range from 50% ( your version ) - 80% which is the generally accepted version .

How much ToT will this agreement actually result in only time will tell once the project is underway in India ?

 

[GGBOZZ]

I read that press release thrice. Where exactly did you read only 50% ToT will be undertaken ? Estimates range from 50% ( your version ) - 80% which is the generally accepted version .

How much ToT will this agreement actually result in only time will tell once the project is underway in India ?

My bad i was quoting the news article and read 50% for the mk1 offer . But will the ToT whatever percentage it be actually happen . Safran didn't even share 1% of it's snemca m88 tech with us which is whats concerning . Like at least we could get a testbed and the technical know how to developing a basic jet engine better than kaveri with dry thrust exceeding 105 kN and highly reliable for our weather conditions

 

[AYoungBrotchen]

Yeah but there's been no official announcement of a facility to manufacture these right ? Like we have been backstabbed on the topic of ToT by all these companies . Safran and dassault are one example . So like is it official ?

The deal has passed every bureaucratic step in the US. So it is official. The only thing which is being discussed between HAL/GE is the price and amount. Once this is concluded, we'll know more.

More probably the engines will be manufactured in or next to the Tejas line.

 

[E-195]

Don't kid yourself about the US and the West. They only care enough about us to get us to ditch Russia. Once we do that, we have no value because then no one else would trust us and US and the West would ditch us in a jiffy and we would have lost the trust of a time trusted ally forever.

So no, I disagree with all of your points above. Modi is doing the right thing by making sure that India keeps her time tested ally and all weather friend, Russia no matter how much pressure US brings.

Do not be so short sighted.

I agree, it is the same problem for all developing nations, smart policies are balanced, allowing growth with good relations, you get the engine from the USA but continue developing your technology, you will succed, the main problem is balance economic growth with peace, but i think India is a well balanced country in that regard, your polices are trying to get the technology and keeping commerce and good relations with different economic poles.

 

[TopWatcher]

HAL is not a smart body, just a babu company. Otherwise company which manufacturing AL engines for so many years can do reverse engineering and build new engine.

 

[Binayak95]

HAL is not a smart body, just a babu company. Otherwise company which manufacturing AL engines for so many years can do reverse engineering and build new engine.

OH please. Same babu company managed to refine and iterate on the titanium forging process over what the Russians had given us, reducing wastage by several folds.

The same company managed to fix a weakness in Jaguar landing gear when the initial SKD kits were being assembled, which BAe then copied without informing which led to a lawsuit which the brits then settled out of court.

Same company is able to manufacture Dhruvs at a rate that exceeds the capacity of the three services to absorb.

 

[Anants]

OH please. Same babu company managed to refine and iterate on the titanium forging process over what the Russians had given us, reducing wastage by several folds.

The same company managed to fix a weakness in Jaguar landing gear when the initial SKD kits were being assembled, which BAe then copied without informing which led to a lawsuit which the brits then settled out of court.

Same company is able to manufacture Dhruvs at a rate that exceeds the capacity of the three services to absorb.

Binayak one thing really preplexes if Midhani and Co managed to develop components for Kaveri which have better mettalurgy and charactersistics than the one being used on AL31F, why havent be tried to validate them bu building components using the new material and subsituting them in Al31 aleast for experiment sake.

 

[Binayak95]

Binayak one thing really preplexes if Midhani and Co managed to develop components for Kaveri which have better mettalurgy and charactersistics than the one being used on AL31F, why havent be tried to validate them bu building components using the new material and subsituting them in Al31 aleast for experiment sake.

That is infuriating. Sheer lack of desire or interest to violate contractual agreements.

PSUs are petrified of doing anything that even borderline illegal.
Heck the service HQs are no better. If you hear the way IAI charges IAF and IN for simple things like inspections and maintenance (which involves nothing more complicated than cleaning PCI slots) you'll all riot.

A few officers come in once a while and go to the extent of getting small start ups to reverse engineer stuff too, but then HQ gets wind of it and some 3* goes : you've made your point, shut it down


Which is why pvt industry participation is so critical.

 

[GGBOZZ]

That is infuriating. Sheer lack of desire or interest to violate contractual agreements.

PSUs are petrified of doing anything that even borderline illegal.
Heck the service HQs are no better. If you hear the way IAI charges IAF and IN for simple things like inspections and maintenance (which involves nothing more complicated than cleaning PCI slots) you'll all riot.

A few officers come in once a while and go to the extent of getting small start ups to reverse engineer stuff too, but then HQ gets wind of it and some 3* goes : you've made your point, shut it down


Which is why pvt industry participation is so critical.

we get shafted everytime anyone promises any ToT and it's impossible to catch up even remotely without copying already existing technology . The development of a jet engine is almost as crucial to india's military requirements today as nuclear powered submarines more than a decade ago

 

[Azaad]

I recall reading on BRF quite some time ago that HAL Koraput was involved in indigenising quite a few components which otherwise were imported from Russia including Titanium components & sub assemblies.

In fact they were of the unanimous opinion if push came to shove we could mfg the entire AL-31FP TF in house without any inputs whatsoever from Russia. That's not all . Apparently HAL went one step ahead & improved both the performance & the quality of said TF. And IIRC all this was in 2018.

It's highly unusual the guys at BRF would indulge in falsehood or deal in hyperbole.

Binayak one thing really preplexes if Midhani and Co managed to develop components for Kaveri which have better mettalurgy and charactersistics than the one being used on AL31F, why havent be tried to validate them bu building components using the new material and subsituting them in Al31 aleast for experiment sake.