LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[SKC]

Each production line will have capacity to rollout 8 jets/year

2 x production lines in HAL , Bengaluru
1 x Production line in HAL , Nashik
3 production lines are currently present so 3 x 8 = 24 jets per year is possible


FYI , 4th tejas production line is being planned/under discussion.....so 32 jets/year too is possible if GE delivers 32 F404 per year......



View: https://youtu.be/90RB188PSAY?si=FimNwYZgHd0n7-bZ



Listen to first 40 seconds of this video

View: https://youtu.be/fXvQaWmyoRI?si=Eou4hv3azTR1A2xp


View attachment 26076
HAL has ability to produce 30 jet engines per year.....so Tejas MK2 might have production rate of 32 jets per year.......Yes producing AL31 & F414 will be different but the same work force would be made to adapt and new jet engine components manufacturing machines will be inducted.....



Ability to produce 30 jet engine per year and 4 x Assemble lines with production rate of 32 jets per year I want you to connect the dots....IMO Tejas mk2 production would start by 2032 with low initial production and gradually increasing production rate to 32 jets/year.....so by 2038 all 180 Tejas MK 2 would be delivered.....



So inshort you have infrastructure to produce 32 jet per year and skilled work force to Assemble 30 jets a year......when trying to add Additional production line all Jigs , skilled work force would be planned in advance


Only issue here is AMCA production thats why MOD wasted 3 years for SPV & Private production line

Pls introduce yourself in New Members thread!

 

[Spitfire IX]

Ah , so that was what the entire game plan was all about ! The ACM's outburst caught on camera was a carefully crafted ploy to prepare the grounds for the second tranche of the 97 Mk-1a's to either be distributed between HAL & the Pvt Sector or be exclusively handed over to the Pvt Sector.

Makes sense IMHO. There's no way HAL can sustain final assembly lines for 73 Mk-1a , 97 Mk-1a & 108 Mk-2 , all to be delivered by 2035. Do remember this isn't considering exports. Then there're the AMCA Mk-1 & TEDBF too.

I think that anything that can put pressure on HAL to speed up production in the short term is useful.

Longer term, handing over production to a private company would end HAL's monopoly. A good thing to me.

Regarding exports, the best time to seek these was during the renewal cycle for MiG-21/Mirage roughly 2000-2020. Potential buyers have mostly bought by now.

Any news on interest from Brazil? Unfortunately the delay in MTA may mean any window for a Mk1A/C-390 deal may close before India is in a position to decide on MTA - and with it, the chance of exporting Mk1A to Brazil.

 

[Nutcracker]

TBH I don't see 97 LCA ordersize as something set on stone. MoD / IAF will watch MK2 development and align the MK1A's ordersize to match when MK2 becomes production ready.

 

[Azaad]

TBH I don't see 97 LCA ordersize as something set on stone. MoD / IAF will watch MK2 development and align the MK1A's ordersize to match when MK2 becomes production ready.

I don't think IAF has the luxury of waiting that long. The first shots have been fired by the ACM - IAF in Aero India 25.

What you'd see is the formation of a committee to look into HAL's ability to deliver the additional 97 nos ? We've a fair idea how they'd conclude.

Then we'd have the MoD come up with an EoI for a FAL of the Mk-1a in the Pvt Sector followed by inspection of facilities , awarding of certificate pre qualifying any one bidder for said work & then they'd be issued the usual tender to fill in for the assembly of the Mk-1a , negotiations etc .

You may also see competition with HAL for once the proposal of a Pvt Sector for a FAL of Mk-1a crops up , the opposition will seize the opportunity to put pressure on the GoI to also issue a tender to HAL for the said work which would defeat the very purpose of establishing a second assembly line in the Pvt Sector. However the latter mustn't succumb to it else the entire exercise will go down the drain.

The only issue is this exercise shouldn't take more than a year or two for the said party has to also undertake setting up of facilities for such work which'd take at least 2 years & place orders for these sub systems from vendors in India & abroad after negotiations , otherwise the entire exercise will be fruitless which in turn means all these exercises must be concluded by this time 2027.

The IAF absolutely MUST induct the first of the 97 Mk-1a's alongside the LRIP versions of the Mk-2 which is in 2029 .

As you can see all this is easier said than done.

 

[RocketMan]

Nothing will improve with committees and conferences. It is Babu Raj which need to be ended. At the moment the DRDO and HAL etc. are considered as extension of government department, where service rule of no discipline, accountability or responsibility prevail. Nobody is responsible for anything. Just pass the buck is the motivation. Hence which committee will improve …… probably none.

India can make all kinds of missiles & even SSBNs & we can't reorganize our manufacturing to mass produce a puny fighter jet ? Babudumbs need to be given 100 lashes as per Sharia !

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

MoD babus cannot leach money off public infrastructure projects!

Small defense parts supplier used to tell me of how difficult it can get to grease all moving parts. Even the last guy taking physical delivery at maintenance depot will be brutal. Guy would say he can count only 19 parts on the table even though 20 were neatly arranged and clearly visible as required by the contract.

They cannot do this to a PSU employee, which is why they want to interface with Pvt. sector who can smoothly route back the extra cream added into the contract (if import pipeline is strangled off)

But we can't have the cake and eat it too isn't it. Look at USA, everything is inflated. Private sector guarantees innovation, quality and assured deliveries and if 10% is eaten, then it's better than DPSUs.

 

[Bleh]

I read HAL's max is delivering 42 Mig-21 Bis in a single year (forgot which)

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

I don't think IAF has the luxury of waiting that long. The first shots have been fired by the ACM - IAF in Aero India 25.

What you'd see is the formation of a committee to look into HAL's ability to deliver the additional 97 nos ? We've a fair idea how they'd conclude.

Then we'd have the MoD come up with an EoI for a FAL of the Mk-1a in the Pvt Sector followed by inspection of facilities , awarding of certificate pre qualifying any one bidder for said work & then they'd be issued the usual tender to fill in for the assembly of the Mk-1a , negotiations etc .

You may also see competition with HAL for once the proposal of a Pvt Sector for a FAL of Mk-1a crops up , the opposition will seize the opportunity to put pressure on the GoI to also issue a tender to HAL for the said work which would defeat the very purpose of establishing a second assembly line in the Pvt Sector. However the latter mustn't succumb to it else the entire exercise will go down the drain.

The only issue is this exercise shouldn't take more than a year or two for the said party has to also undertake setting up of facilities for such work which'd take at least 2 years & place orders for these sub systems from vendors in India & abroad after negotiations , otherwise the entire exercise will be fruitless which in turn means all these exercises must be concluded by this time 2027.

The IAF absolutely MUST induct the first of the 97 Mk-1a's alongside the LRIP versions of the Mk-2 which is in 2029 .

As you can see all this is easier said than done.

if HAL will successfully make tejas mark 2 production ready in 2029. i dont think than we should go with 97 tejas mark 1a deal. coz we will hv already 83 tejas mark 1a nd 40 tejas mark 1 (which will upgraded in tejas mark 1a)..so total near 123 tejas mark 1a or 6 squad, to replace mig 21. our jaguar, mirage 2000 nd mig 29 fleet will ready to retire from 2030-32....so much capable tejas mark 2 is ideal aircraft to replace them.

right now we hv 31 squad. our two squad of mig 21 is going to retire. that make total 29 squads. untill 2030 we r going to get 4 squads of tejas mark 1a....that makes 33 squad in our air force. add 2-3 squad of 5 genration aircraft, if we serious to pakistani 5 genration threat. that makes 35-36 squads. that many squad we can get in 2029 to 2032 (dont know our 5 genration delivery timeline). so airforce is in comfortable stage near 2029, they can afford 1-2 year delay of tejas mark 2 for induction ready.

 

[Asmodeus]

so airforce is in comfortable stage near 2029, they can afford 1-2 year delay of tejas mark 2 for induction ready.

Everything foreign like Mirage, jaguars and migs are slated to retire before 2035. We only have 272 su-30's to start with after 2030(that too only 76 upgraded and ready). I personally won't count on jets that are about to retire in a full blown conflict. we need mk1a, mk2, amca every single jet that we can get in air in coming years. no matter how capable it is, getting it in air matters more!

 

[Gandaberunda]

if HAL will successfully make tejas mark 2 production ready in 2029. i dont think than we should go with 97 tejas mark 1a deal. coz we will hv already 83 tejas mark 1a nd 40 tejas mark 1 (which will upgraded in tejas mark 1a)..so total near 123 tejas mark 1a or 6 squad, to replace mig 21. our jaguar, mirage 2000 nd mig 29 fleet will ready to retire from 2030-32....so much capable tejas mark 2 is ideal aircraft to replace them.

right now we hv 31 squad. our two squad of mig 21 is going to retire. that make total 29 squads. untill 2030 we r going to get 4 squads of tejas mark 1a....that makes 33 squad in our air force. add 2-3 squad of 5 genration aircraft, if we serious to pakistani 5 genration threat. that makes 35-36 squads. that many squad we can get in 2029 to 2032 (dont know our 5 genration delivery timeline). so airforce is in comfortable stage near 2029, they can afford 1-2 year delay of tejas mark 2 for induction ready.

IAF is on right course with additional 97 MK1A order with MK2 gearing up. Even if MK2 is ready by 2029 for production we need MK1A in numbers for western border. The operating cost will be lesser and free up other fighters. 180 MK1A will be sufficient to bully porks JF17 bunder. Also we need 220+ MK2 but as of now IAF is looking for 90 MK2 initial order.

 

[shade2]

Defence Ministry forms five-member panel to resolve Tejas delivery delays: Reports

There has been ongoing concern over the steady decline in the number of operational squadrons, with the IAF banking on the 83 LCA jets ordered to fulfil the requirement.

www.indiatvnews.com

Defence Ministry forms five-member panel to resolve Tejas delivery delays: Reports​

Looks like the whole thing with the ACM giving a "tongue lashing"( as per media walas ) to HAL in public has been a setup by the GoI to go for another "emergency procurement" as a "stop gap" since " lazy DPSU HAL is still delaying Tejas deliveries " whether this is of 36 Rafales or some large order F-16s is only known to those in the corridors of power.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Everything foreign like Mirage, jaguars and migs are slated to retire before 2035. We only have 272 su-30's to start with after 2030(that too only 76 upgraded and ready). I personally won't count on jets that are about to retire in a full blown conflict. we need mk1a, mk2, amca every single jet that we can get in air in coming years. no matter how capable it is, getting it in air matters more!

near 2030 we hv:-
1:- 272 su 30 mki (15 squad).
2:- 36 rafale (2 squad).
3:- 40 tejas mark 1 (2 squad).
4:- 83 tejas mark 1a (4 squad).
leave mirage 2000, jaguar nd mig 29.
so we hv total aircraft in 2030:-
total = 431aircraft or 23 squads.
add 2-3 fifth generation aircraft in it, as we r planning. that makes 25-26 squads in 2030-33. perfect time to induct 200+ tejas mark 2 from 2030..so they can replace jaguar, mig 29 nd mirage 2000. that makes 35-36 squads. later 6 squad of AMCA makes total squads near 42 squads in 2040. our first batch of su 30 mki is going to retire from 2042, if they will give 40 year of service. perfect time to make a single engine desi 5 genration medium weight fighter (just like su75) to replace su 30 mki.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

IAF is on right course with additional 97 MK1A order with MK2 gearing up. Even if MK2 is ready by 2029 for production we need MK1A in numbers for western border. The operating cost will be lesser and free up other fighters. 180 MK1A will be sufficient to bully porks JF17 bunder. Also we need 220+ MK2 but as of now IAF is looking for 90 MK2 initial order.

look tejas mark 1a 83 aircraft is going to deliver near 2030 (coz its 1-2 year late from its delivery timeline of 2029). so if we make deal of additional 97 tejas mark 1a, they will going to start delivering only after 2030-31. if that time we make deal of delivering 24 tejas mark 1a per year....or even 30 aircraft per year. our production line will be busy untill 2033-34. so u can get tejas mark 2 only after 2033-34. i dont think u suggest 4.5 genration fighter (tejas mark 2) induction after 2040. coz 200+ tejas mark 2 will take 7-8 year to deliver.

tejas mark 1a nd tejas mark 2 will not that huge cost difference. if we look tejas mark 2 specs, its far better than tejas mark 1a. i mean near or below par rafale capabilities. i think deploying 150 tejas mark 2 in pakistan border is far better than 180 tejas mark 1a. we hv already 40+83=123 tejas mark 1 nd 1a , which is good number. beside this if we compare:-
1:- tejas mark 2 will hv MAWS.
2:- tejas mark 2 will hv 11 hardpoint. tejas mark 1a hv 8 hardpoint.
3:- tejas mark 2 will hv 6000 kg weapon payload. compaire to 4500 kg of tejas mark 1a.
4:- tejas mark 2 will hv infrared sensor.
5:- may be tejas mark 2 use GAN based uttam aesa radar.
6:- tejas mark 2 will hv better thrust to weight ratio engine.
7:- tejas mark 2 can carry more missiles like brahmos ng, BVR, rudram series, SAAW etc.

 

[Patriots]

look tejas mark 1a 83 aircraft is going to deliver near 2030 (coz its 1-2 year late from its delivery timeline of 2029). so if we make deal of additional 97 tejas mark 1a, they will going to start delivering only after 2030-31. if that time we make deal of delivering 24 tejas mark 1a per year....or even 30 aircraft per year. our production line will be busy untill 2033-34. so u can getting tejas mark 2 only after 2033-34.
tejas mark 1a nd tejas mark 2 will not that huge cost difference. if we look tejas mark 2 specs, its far better than tejas mark 1a. i mean near or below par rafale capabilities. i think deploying 150 tejas mark 2 in pakistan border is far better than 180 tejas mark 1a. we hv already 40+83=123 tejas mark 1 nd 1a , which is good number. beside this if we compare:-
1:- tejas mark 2 will hv MAWS.
2:- tejas mark 2 will hv 11 hardpoint. tejas mark 1a hv 8 hardpoint.
3:- tejas mark 2 will hv 6000 kg weapon payload. compaire to 4500 kg of tejas mark 1a.
4:- tejas mark 2 will hv infrared sensor.
5:- may be tejas mark 2 use GAN based uttam aesa radar.
6:- tejas mark 2 will hv better thrust to weight ratio.
7:- tejas mark 2 can carry more missiles like brahmos ng, BVR, rudram series, SAAW etc.

Tejas mk1a is to replace mig21 , mig23s mig27s

Tejas mk2 is to replace mirage 2000 mig 29s
It's always better to have mk2 than mk1a but mk1a will do the task of mig 21 , deployed in forward areas ,to intercept enemy fighters.
Then I don't believe hal will be able to do first flight soon, atleast 5 years from now for production, 2030...if everything goes as planned
...

 

[shade2]

near 2030 we hv:-
1:- 272 su 30 mki (15 squad).
2:- 36 rafale (2 squad).
3:- 40 tejas mark 1 (2 squad).
4:- 83 tejas mark 1a (4 squad).
leave mirage 2000, jaguar nd mig 29.
so we hv total aircraft in 2030:-
total = 431aircraft or 23 squads.
add 2-3 fifth generation aircraft in it, as we r planning. that makes 25-26 squads in 2030-33. perfect time to induct 200+ tejas mark 2 from 2030..so they can replace jaguar, mig 29 nd mirage 2000. that makes 35-36 squads. later 6 squad of AMCA makes total squads near 42 squads in 2040. our first batch of su 30 mki is going to retire from 2042, if they will give 40 year of service. perfect time to make a single engine desi 5 genration medium weight fighter (just like su75) to replace su 30 mki.

Problem with this line of thinking is it's not possible with the || Today's Not the Era of War || budgets.
F-35 will eat the MWF/Tejas Mk2's budget and not even leave crumbs.

gold-plated imports are not the solution to the numbers game, 1 Mard -e- Amrikeen F-35 is not equivalent to 20 Yellow Commie Ch!nku J-20s as Import Bahadurs and shill patrakars would have us believe...

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Tejas mk1a is to replace mig21 , mig23s mig27s

Tejas mk2 is to replace mirage 2000 mig 29s
It's always better to have mk2 than mk1a but mk1a will do the task of mig 21 , deployed in forward areas ,to intercept enemy fighters.
Then I don't believe hal will be able to do first flight soon, atleast 5 years from now for production, 2030...if everything goes as planned
...

mig 23 nd mig 27 already retired. we hv to only retire 1-2 squad of mig 21 now. we hv already induct 40 tejas mark 1, which will going to upgrade in tejas mark 1a standard. beside this we hv order of 83 tejas mark 1a. that makes total 123 tejas mark 1a in our inventory. that is pritty good number. additional 97 tejas mark 1a, delivery only going to complete near 2033 (if we deliver 30 aircraft per year), coz our 83 tejas mark 1a delivery date already delayed for 1-2 year. so expect their delivery timeline in 2030-31.
now look at this perfect delivery timeline (without any delay).
1:- 83 tejas mark 1a = 2031.
2:- 97 tejas mark 2 (30 aircraft per year delivery) = 2034.
3:- 200 tejas mark 2 (32 aircraft per year delivery) = 2041.
so if we add additional 97 tejas mark 1a order...we were delivering 4.5 genration tejas mark 2, untill 2040-41. keep it mind, its without any delay.
i dont think we should make 4.5 genration aircraft after 2038. we r only country in the world, who were delivering 4.5 genration fighter untill 2040-41.

 

[silentassassin265]

Tejas mk1a is to replace mig21 , mig23s mig27s

Tejas mk2 is to replace mirage 2000 mig 29s
It's always better to have mk2 than mk1a but mk1a will do the task of mig 21 , deployed in forward areas ,to intercept enemy fighters.
Then I don't believe hal will be able to do first flight soon, atleast 5 years from now for production, 2030...if everything goes as planned
...

Mk1a has one of the lowest operating cost in the world so it makes sense to have at least 200 of them.
If iaf actually places orders until next year for 97 mk1a HAL can open additional production line to speed up manufacturing

 

[Asmodeus]

look tejas mark 1a 83 aircraft is going to deliver near 2030 (coz its 1-2 year late from its delivery timeline of 2029). so if we make deal of additional 97 tejas mark 1a, they will going to start delivering only after 2030-31.

that 2029 can be shortnened to 2027 with 32jets/year(4 assembly lines) if 97 more are ordered, economics of scale kinda thing.
anything below 28-29 sqauds is red alert. open invitation to things like pathankot.
2 sqads of 5th gen? we don't have that kind of money, should never happen, will cost you more than arm and a leg + compromises everything from strats to maps to comms to fututre jets(cannot trust anyone other than India)

 

[ArjunMK1A]

I read HAL's max is delivering 42 Mig-21 Bis in a single year (forgot which)

MIG 21 at peak is 874 Unit for IAF. So HAL can deliver 42 aircraft per year. The production line ran for 15-20 years.

Now for 83 Tejas MK1A. HAL at present go for 8 per year meaning 10 years to deliver 83 planes. If we order extra 97. Then 83+97 = 180 aircraft.

Now 18-20 aircraft per year can be done.

Remember at the end of day HAL needs to run the production at its optimum level. If they overcooked, then they will run out of jets to produce. This will result in idle workers, idle suppliers. Similar to the Submarine line, MDL got the extension of 3 subs retaining the supply base and skilled workers.

Question is end of day, If IAF or MOD gave an plan of procurement for next decade, then HAL can overdeliver. Otherwise there is problem.

For that Tejas MK2, AMCA prototype should come out in proper timeline with min delay.

 

[Gandaberunda]

look tejas mark 1a 83 aircraft is going to deliver near 2030 (coz its 1-2 year late from its delivery timeline of 2029). so if we make deal of additional 97 tejas mark 1a, they will going to start delivering only after 2030-31. if that time we make deal of delivering 24 tejas mark 1a per year....or even 30 aircraft per year. our production line will be busy untill 2033-34. so u can get tejas mark 2 only after 2033-34. i dont think u suggest 4.5 genration fighter (tejas mark 2) induction after 2040. coz 200+ tejas mark 2 will take 7-8 year to deliver.

tejas mark 1a nd tejas mark 2 will not that huge cost difference. if we look tejas mark 2 specs, its far better than tejas mark 1a. i mean near or below par rafale capabilities. i think deploying 150 tejas mark 2 in pakistan border is far better than 180 tejas mark 1a. we hv already 40+83=123 tejas mark 1 nd 1a , which is good number. beside this if we compare:-
1:- tejas mark 2 will hv MAWS.
2:- tejas mark 2 will hv 11 hardpoint. tejas mark 1a hv 8 hardpoint.
3:- tejas mark 2 will hv 6000 kg weapon payload. compaire to 4500 kg of tejas mark 1a.
4:- tejas mark 2 will hv infrared sensor.
5:- may be tejas mark 2 use GAN based uttam aesa radar.
6:- tejas mark 2 will hv better thrust to weight ratio engine.
7:- tejas mark 2 can carry more missiles like brahmos ng, BVR, rudram series, SAAW etc.

You think IAF doesn’t know the capabilities of MK1A and MK2 and what role they play in highly contested Airspace? IAF desperately need fighters and so they are going with repeat orders for MK1A knowing the present order will be completed beyond 2030. The fighters are inducted based on enemy strengths and MK1A in numbers is enough for Pakistan JF17s. If we are going to import 5th gen aircraft’s then MK1As will play crucial role in operating cost. We fight based on the doctrine and IAF needs Mig 21 replacement which is MK1A.
MK2 will replace Mirage/Jaguars and also will be work horse for IAF in future despite having 5th gen fighters. Both MK1A and MK2 will be inducted in numbers as front line jets.