Operation Sindoor & Aftermath (75 Viewers)

[hurrians]

.War gaming was let's say not upto mark (apparantly)
.all though all situations can't be predicted but if the next day recalibration gives success then war gaming efforts have to be closely checked
.hope info war is part of war gaming
.Good that china factor is atleast now mentioned albeit not so direct as Turkish anyway far better than when , some wanted to join with the Chinese to form a block
.american lunch to field Marshal
. regarding Russians

Pakistan-Russia transport agreement: Strategic rail, road project aims to link South Asia with Eurasia, warm-water ports - Times of India

Infrastructure News: Pakistan and Russia have agreed to jointly develop a rail and road network, aiming to connect South Asia with Central Asia and Russia, providing landl

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

But yes the brahmos aka P-800 Oniks were useful in the fight
. aircraft engine, tank etc technology can't develop in vaccum only drdo/hal/nal can't develop its a whole of nation effort - private sector, academia,civil sector etc
If we take oxford vaccine and rebrand it as our own we are not going to achieve any scientific breakthrough. Basic research,quality control and safety of made a way of life in all fields maybe we will be closer to self sufficiency in science and technology.

 

[Cereal Killer]

but why can't we bring these known killers to justice

They are useless, cannon fodder. Real enemy is Pakistani military. That is the head of the snake.
You have to crush them for a lasting impact

 

[Adibot]

First of all, I want to say I’m extremely proud of our armed forces for the successful execution of Operation Sindoor. It was a bold and decisive move that not only showed Pakistan its place but also demonstrated India's strength and strategic capability on the global stage.

But amidst this pride, I’m still left with a burning question — why have the terrorists responsible for the Pahalgam massacre not been eliminated or captured yet? We have their names, their origins, even their roles:

• Hashim Musa – Pakistan (ex-para SF)
• Ali Bhai (Talha) – Pakistan, Shooter/infiltrator
• Adil Hussain Thoker – Anantnag
• Asif Sheikh (Fauji) – Pulwama
• Saifullah Kasuri – Pakistan (LeT handler), Mastermind

Despite sketches, demolitions, and public outrage — not one of them has been neutralized. It is deeply frustrating and heartbreaking that months after such a horrific attack, the perpetrators continue to roam free.

We can strike deep into enemy territory, but why can't we bring these known killers to justice?

This is the question that bothers me as well
Musa is ex ssg though and is most probably waiting for orders for next attack
Indian can't win this war if we don't develop trageted assassination and raiding abilities like israel

 

[Ajatshatru]

Tejas will carry an even smaller warhead . It's just not a high damage weapon.

As an example , the Tomohawk has a bigger warhead and the Americans use hundreds of them for SEAD and to disable airbases. We can't afford to use hundreds of brahmos.

The military knows that which is why they asked for the Prahaar.

Yes I know but, With 183 Tejas Mk1A jets, Indian Air Force will be capable of striking Pakistani ground targets with air-launched BrahMos missiles and various other indigenous weapons. However, to maintain superiority in air-to-air combat, the IAF urgently needs a fifth-generation fighter and a clear beyond-visual-range (BVR) advantage over Pakistan.

 

[IRDefense]

First of all, I want to say I’m extremely proud of our armed forces for the successful execution of Operation Sindoor. It was a bold and decisive move that not only showed Pakistan its place but also demonstrated India's strength and strategic capability on the global stage.

But amidst this pride, I’m still left with a burning question — why have the terrorists responsible for the Pahalgam massacre not been eliminated or captured yet? We have their names, their origins, even their roles:

• Hashim Musa – Pakistan (ex-para SF)
• Ali Bhai (Talha) – Pakistan, Shooter/infiltrator
• Adil Hussain Thoker – Anantnag
• Asif Sheikh (Fauji) – Pulwama
• Saifullah Kasuri – Pakistan (LeT handler), Mastermind

Despite sketches, demolitions, and public outrage — not one of them has been neutralized. It is deeply frustrating and heartbreaking that months after such a horrific attack, the perpetrators continue to roam free.

We can strike deep into enemy territory, but why can't we bring these known killers to justice?

There was subsequent news that the initial suspects were different than the actual perpetrators based on information from arrested OGWs, but that also doesn’t have any official confirmation.

Sometimes it is notoriously hard to get individuals who don’t want to be found. How long did it take the Americans to find bin laden? Eventually they will get caught if they have not managed to cross back.

But the public should keep asking this question & not let the government sidestep it.

 

[Tshering22]

They are useless, cannon fodder. Real enemy is Pakistani military. That is the head of the snake.
You have to crush them for a lasting impact

Crushing them = flattening their hierarchical pyramid. Flattening the pyramid creates enough competition from lower levels who then descend into chaos with infighting. That's why it was a smart move to target so close to GHQ pindi during OS.

While Pakistanis have an upper hand with the Americans and Chinese backing them in the field of information warfare (US is damn good at it as we saw initially in the Ukraine-Russia Conflict), we will eventually gain an upper hand.

If OS is any indicator, I seriously believe that standoff warfare is going to be the future format of combat. I don't see columns of Arjuns and T-90s storming into Pakistan to raze them. It will be more like thousands of Nirbhays, LORAs, BrahMos and Harops, raining down on specific coordinates.

This will also prompt the Pakistanis to build underground bunkers to secure their military commands. The only way we can catch them off-guard in the future is to ensure that we keep them distracted and then suddenly launch a strike.

 

[Hari Sud]

Crushing them = flattening their hierarchical pyramid. Flattening the pyramid creates enough competition from lower levels who then descend into chaos with infighting. That's why it was a smart move to target so close to GHQ pindi during OS.

While Pakistanis have an upper hand with the Americans and Chinese backing them in the field of information warfare (US is damn good at it as we saw initially in the Ukraine-Russia Conflict), we will eventually gain an upper hand.

If OS is any indicator, I seriously believe that standoff warfare is going to be the future format of combat. I don't see columns of Arjuns and T-90s storming into Pakistan to raze them. It will be more like thousands of Nirbhays, LORAs, BrahMos and Harops, raining down on specific coordinates.

This will also prompt the Pakistanis to build underground bunkers to secure their military commands. The only way we can catch them off-guard in the future is to ensure that we keep them distracted and then suddenly launch a strike.

Yes, you are right. That is why decision has been taken to build 7.5 bunker buster and mount it on Agni or any other missile.

 

[Tumba]

Tejas will carry an even smaller warhead . It's just not a high damage weapon.

As an example , the Tomohawk has a bigger warhead and the Americans use hundreds of them for SEAD and to disable airbases. We can't afford to use hundreds of brahmos.

The military knows that which is why they asked for the Prahaar.

has almost 4-5 times more energy generated at impact than Tomahawk.

Meaning americans require around 5 Tomahawks for same impact as India requires one and we are comfortably sitting at Ten Thousand stockpile so you can bet we can afford them.

 

[indrajit]

View: https://www.youtube.com/live/f06bhryUn6s?si=pZIj59pfuU2U7Eho

A must watch.

 

[Tumba]

Sharing an analysis on the failure of HQ-9BE Surface to Air Missile system of the Pakistan Air Force in preventing attack on the Nur Khan Air Base. Even though a battery was based at the Air Base, and it had been bought with a special radar package to take on ballistic missiles and other such threats.


View: https://youtu.be/ZaksLDWYpdo?si=wA2hu3gh_mWeyblt

Nur Khan Base is paki military core it was not only HQ-9 whole set of paki air defense assets were deployed thr

A full fledged layered air defense system deployed by chinis by integrating the HQ-9/P for long-range protection, HQ-16FE for medium-range coverage, FM-90 and RBS-70 NG for short-range point defense, and 35mm GDF Oerlikon guns for close-in protection, supported by IBIS-150 and HT-233 radars for surveillance and targeting.

This basically means this is the biggest failure of modern SAM layered network ever chinese at LAC has somewhat similar SAM layered systems aided by sats in both cases. Not even a single cruise missile were countered not even one.

India has by now must have changed the electronic signatures too for , hopefully all waves with different signatures that will really fck up whatever new alms they r getting from chinis, as per sources HQ-16 latest tracking and locking radars are being fast tracked by chinis I doubt this will help much.

 

[Interested]

has almost 4-5 times more energy generated at impact than Tomahawk.

Meaning americans require around 5 Tomahawks for same impact as India requires one and we are comfortably sitting at Ten Thousand stockpile so you can bet we can afford them.

That's not how it works . It can hit as hard as you want if there is not a big enough warhead , it doesn't do as much as a Tomahawk .

 

[Tumba]

That's not how it works . It can hit as hard as you want if there is not a big enough warhead , it doesn't do as much as a Tomahawk .

Clearly u dont know much then.

Using minimum values for BrahMos (Mach 2.8, 3430 m/s, ~1000 kg impact weight, 300 kg warhead) and maximum values for Tomahawk (Mach 0.74, 906 m/s, ~1000 kg impact weight, 450 kg warhead), BrahMos generates ~5.882 GJ kinetic energy, ~14.3 times higher than Tomahawk’s ~0.410 GJ, due to its supersonic speed. Tomahawk’s warhead delivers ~1.883 GJ, exceeding BrahMos’s ~1.255 GJ, but total energy favors BrahMos (~7.137 GJ vs. ~2.293 GJ, ~3.1 times higher). Propellant adjustments reduce BrahMos’s kinetic energy by ~60% (14.71 GJ to 5.882 GJ) and Tomahawk’s by ~23% (0.534 GJ to 0.410 GJ), yet BrahMos’s speed-driven kinetic dominance ensures greater destructiveness, despite Tomahawk’s larger warhead.

Above is the max values for latest Tomohawks and min values for taken I for fact know latest has speed closer to Mach 4+ but not calculating same.

is a monster compared with a subsonic missile like Tomahawk its more comparable to Nirbhay…

 

[Nibbler]

has almost 4-5 times more energy generated at impact than Tomahawk.

Meaning americans require around 5 Tomahawks for same impact as India requires one and we are comfortably sitting at Ten Thousand stockpile so you can bet we can afford them.

ye, but lrlacm should be the bread and butter

i hope they are bought in the thousands. does any one have an idea what the unit cost of the lrlacm would be

 

[Tumba]

ye, but lrlacm should be the bread and butter

i hope they are bought in the thousands. does any one have an idea what the unit cost of the lrlacm would be

We have brought down cost of latest being manufactured on an average to 3 million of standard variants and 8 million of latest extended range variants with more economy of scale in few years we can drop the avg for standard variant and extended variants by 30% more

For Nibhay the cost is around 1.5 million and once we reach 1000 number we could bring the cost around 1.2 and at 10000 below a million but I dont think we need that many close to 1000 will do fine for all identified targets over 1000 kms.

Better focus all energy on Hypersonics cruise missile now.

 

[Tumba]

choyna

Hypersonic Cruise Missile will be much better for chinis, Subsonics I dont see survive much in longer flights.

Nirbhay is ideally suited for less denser air defense networks.

 

[randombully]

Hence we need a efficient Mass Payload delivery Mechanism. That is as much less MTOW of the Projectile as possible for given payload for example 100kg or 500kg Warhead.

In absence of large scale Air Force, our pivot should be towards Missiles. In such scenario Long Range LACM and are too costly to project mass on enemy. One of the most disadvantageous position Pakistan has is in regarding India- its geography. Every base is within atmost 300-400km or so from our border. MLRS won't reach that kind of range and would need full fledged Missile which need to be atleast 2 to 3-Ton.

What I think is best way to deliver mass is Winged Glide Bomb paired to Rocket.

View attachment 42928

This GL-SDB has a range of 150-Km with just max weight of 270-Kg but with 100-Kg warhead. Imagine a JSOW which has 500-Kg warhead but paired with a 370-mm rocket(JSOW has diameter of 330mm). It would easily give a range of 300 to 400-Km.

Moreover these are very stealthy, silent and doesn't emit any IR Signature to shoot them down.

View attachment 42930

Drdo SAAW( smart anti air Field weapon) range 100km, warhead 80kg, total weight 125kg.


Tara(Tactical Advanced Range Augmentation) glide bomb kit for 250kg, 450kg, 500kg bombs.


Gaurav glide bomb, range 100+km, weight 1000kg.



So full spectrum, from 125kg to 1 ton glide bombs, all with with range of ~100km.

Also.
120km pinaka being developed, 300km pinaka being developed.

We also have lots of cheap israeli weapons.
Like, Rampage air launch artillary rocket/tactical ballistic missile with max range of 250km.
Spice series, crystal maze series.



Ground launched cheap loitering munitions like haroop, harpy, domestic cheap loitering munitions.
Long Range domestic loitering munitions like sheshnaag in development.


So, lots of cheap/affordable options, from 100-300km range.


Also prithvi missile with this BCES submunitions warhead .

 

[randombully]

Hypersonic Cruise Missile will be much better for chinis, Subsonics I dont see survive much in longer flights.

Hypersonic for high value targets, and airdefense systems, once the air defense network of a limited area has been degraded, spam large no. cheaper subsonic Long Range cruise missiles for targets in that limited area .

 

[Tumba]

I did some calculations using published data on the Rafale airframe, metallurgy, and M-88 engine (dry and wet thrust), including the effects of a full payload with fuel tanks. I identified a scenario where a Rafale crash likely occurred due to exceeding its structural limits.

On Operation Sindoor start a Rafale, loaded with four Hammers, three fuel tanks, and two air-to-air missiles, takes off from Ambala. It flies at low altitude (around 100 meters) using dry thrust toward the LOC. Near LOC The aircraft climbs, releases the four Hammers on targets in PoJ&K, and is detected by enemy radar. To evade, it goes "cold", drops two fuel tanks, and accelerates to supersonic speed at low altitude (100 meters or less) through hilly terrain for a 8-minute burst. Putting extreme stress on airframe continuously, once its closer to base it’s diverted to near the Panjab border and goes supersonic again at 100 meters or so. The pilot jettisons the last remaining fuel tank, but the high drag from the airframe and remaining drop tank release causes excessive stress on the wingtips airframe gives up, The aircraft tilts toward the now cracked wingtip. Unable to recover, the pilot attempts to crash-land in a field, ejects. In this scenario engines will more or less be safe.

 

[randombully]

accelerates to supersonic speed at low altitude (100 meters or less) through hilly terrain for a 8-minute burst

Supersonic flight at 100 meters or less altitude for "8 minutes" through "hilly terrain".

Highly unrealistic.

once its closer to base it’s diverted to near the Panjab border and goes supersonic again at 100 meters or so

Why did it go supersonic again? Near the base?

 

[Tumba]

Supersonic flight at 100 meters or less altitude for "8 minutes" through "hilly terrain".

Highly unrealistic.





Why did it go supersonic again? Near the base?

Diverted towards other area, supersonic 100 meters not required as per radar evasion but pushing the airframe out of its structural limits as per maths basically.

I say for this scenario pilot took the Rafale beyond whatever sales pitch dasault provided to IAF

Just a reminder this is a scenario based on math


Only way my theory can be confirmed by folks living near the supersonic low altitude flight path from ambala to j&k , if ppl heard deafening thundering beyond 1 min it so its a supersonic flight with 100 meter or less low flying