Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[he-man]

We have been taken on a ride by french.
Just check the mirage 2000 modernization cost per plane and what mirage 2000 brings to table in 2025.

Can it match j-10 or even a block 3 jf-17 with modern aesa radars?It still carries a stupid slotted array.Sure it's not a superorly fighter and would be used for ground pounding roles but still.

Our procurement policy has been borderline stupid,we have failed to upgrade an old bars pesa in mki to aesa.We are still flying with older al-31 series when newer versions are available.Slow procurement of 4.5 gen / mmrca .

Meanwhile pakistan which has way way less budget has done relatively better putting all its eggs in Chinese basket.

 

[liberalredditor]

We have been taken on a ride by french.
Just check the mirage 2000 modernization cost per plane and what mirage 2000 brings to table in 2025.

Can it match j-10 or even a block 3 jf-17 with modern aesa radars?It still carries a stupid slotted array.Sure it's not a superorly fighter and would be used for ground pounding roles but still.

Our procurement policy has been borderline stupid,we have failed to upgrade an old bars pesa in mki to aesa.We are still flying with older al-31 series when newer versions are available.Slow procurement of 4.5 gen / mmrca .

Meanwhile pakistan which has way way less budget has done relatively better putting all its eggs in Chinese basket.

pakistan is doing better at low costs because it got better friends than us, they are giving them at discounted rates, but mostly junk

as for rafales masking capability of its rcs, do check out about wave construction and destruction theory, thats how active rcs reduction works, rafale knows how it looks from various angles with which weapon load out, it can send off waves to cancel out, in return comes a clean 0.05-0.1 m2 rcs with drop tank and a2a loadout or scalp loadout

 

[he-man]

F35 is not in picture. We won't get a stealth jet from usa and ads from russia. Not possible, usa won't allow. Period.
The job of SEAD/DEAD is to kill enemy ADS. and job of ground bomber is to do ground bombing only when enemy air space is secure or enemy ads is neutralized. The main SEAD/DEAD planes of UASF is the prowler and growler squadrons- which are F15s. Ask yourself why.

Has IAF even bothered to use the mki to its potential then ?

Same shit bars pesa radar ( >25 years old ).
No MAWS
Same old OLS-30
Same old engines with barely 2000 hours life
No composite addition in build.

Waste of resources due to poor planning.
Now they have yet to start the super sukhoi upgrade ,at this speed will take 10 years for only upgrades.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

these terms such as air superiority, interceptor, ground strike, etc are useless

fighters need to be jack of all class

now a days, air superiority is combined with interceptior role due to greater role of electronics and sensors ie the ew suite which does the major work, all the jamming, spoofing, data links, sdr, comjam etc

Says who ? You the aviation expert ? I think air forces know better is why they have specific role planes. Nowadays no one cares about interception - because you dont need to fly straight up to a plane and say hello to kill it. Hence why no interceptors made since 1990.

As i said, ask yourself, if stealth is needed for SEAD/DEAD, why is the growler and prowler squadron of USAF - the dedicated and foremost SEAD/DEAD squadrons on planet earth- are manned by 50 year old F-15s.I can give you answer if you do not, since i know the answer, fyi.

Has IAF even bothered to use the mki to its potential then ?

Same shit bars pesa radar ( >25 years old ).
No MAWS
Same old OLS-30
Same old engines with barely 2000 hours life
No composite addition in build.

Well this is why i said IAF needs to realize that we have one of the two only immortal bhisma pitamaha planes on planet earth and needs to take better care of it. As far as Radar goes - the NIIM-bars is one of the most powerful radars ever put inside a fighter jet. its not AESA but PESA, whih has its own advantages over AESA fyi - AESA isnt universally superior to PESA - it has its pros and cons over PESA too.

 

[he-man]

pakistan is doing better at low costs because it got better friends than us, they are giving them at discounted rates, but mostly junk

as for rafales masking capability of its rcs, do check out about wave construction and destruction theory, thats how active rcs reduction works, rafale knows how it looks from various angles with which weapon load out, it can send off waves to cancel out, in return comes a clean 0.05-0.1 m2 rcs with drop tank and a2a loadout or scalp loadout

Nonsense figures.

Eveything depends on the opponent's equipment ,not everything is determined by the specta.If that was the case then no stealth shaping / internal bays would be required.

 

[he-man]

Says who ? You the aviation expert ? I think air forces know better is why they have specific role planes. Nowadays no one cares about interception - because you dont need to fly straight up to a plane and say hello to kill it. Hence why no interceptors made since 1990.

As i said, ask yourself, if stealth is needed for SEAD/DEAD, why is the growler and prowler squadron of USAF - the dedicated and foremost SEAD/DEAD squadrons on planet earth- are manned by 50 year old F-15s.

I can give you answer if you do not, since i know the answer, fyi.

Probably money saving things.
They can't automatically disband something out of the blue and replace with something else.They are still flying b-52 .

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Probably money saving things.
They can't automatically disband something out of the blue and replace with something else.They are still flying b-52 .

Why would you spend 30 million per plane on a 50 year old plane ( F-15) to make it growler/prowler, when you have over 2000+ stealth planes ??
Do you know what are the two main requirements of a plane to be a growler/prowler plane ??

 

[he-man]

Says who ? You the aviation expert ? I think air forces know better is why they have specific role planes. Nowadays no one cares about interception - because you dont need to fly straight up to a plane and say hello to kill it. Hence why no interceptors made since 1990.

As i said, ask yourself, if stealth is needed for SEAD/DEAD, why is the growler and prowler squadron of USAF - the dedicated and foremost SEAD/DEAD squadrons on planet earth- are manned by 50 year old F-15s.I can give you answer if you do not, since i know the answer, fyi.



Well this is why i said IAF needs to realize that we have one of the two only immortal bhisma pitamaha planes on planet earth and needs to take better care of it. As far as Radar goes - the NIIM-bars is one of the most powerful radars ever put inside a fighter jet. its not AESA but PESA, whih has its own advantages over AESA fyi - AESA isnt universally superior to PESA - it has its pros and cons over PESA too.

Bars pesa is shit in 2025.
It's not one of the most powerful radars to be put in a jet,that would be su-35 irbis e with 20 kw peak power.

As far as aesa vs pesa goes ,pesa offers really no obvious advantage over an aesa.Its just cost,availability and stupid planning that stopped is from upgrading.

 

[he-man]

Why would you spend 30 million per plane on a 50 year old plane ( F-15) to make it growler/prowler, when you have over 2000+ stealth planes ??
Do you know what are the two main requirements of a plane to be a growler/prowler plane ??

The stealth planes( F-35) really have no room for avionics / pods that u mention.

F-35 the flying potato has serious issues.

 

[liberalredditor]

Nonsense figures.

Eveything depends on the opponent's equipment ,not everything is determined by the specta.If that was the case then no stealth shaping / internal bays would be required.

stealth shaping and internal bays were response to different requirement, to go below 0.01 m2 and even to 0.0001 m2 range
with that case came sensor fusion, integrated ew capability inside the aircraft, intelligent engine control, a significant upgrade above fadec
major reason for stealth shaping was aerodynamics and some irregular heating on body to be reduced, which was caught by irst
stealth made engines thermal signature reduced

 

[he-man]

stealth shaping and internal bays were response to different requirement, to go below 0.01 m2 and even to 0.0001 m2 range
with that case came sensor fusion, integrated ew capability inside the aircraft, intelligent engine control, a significant upgrade above fadec
major reason for stealth shaping was aerodynamics and some irregular heating on body to be reduced, which was caught by irst
stealth made engines thermal signature reduced

I am telling u those figures are total bogous.
At the most rafale will go to 1-2 m2 if lucky.

It is at serious disadvantage vs j-20( already 300-400 built ) and even j-35 which has serious stealth shaping.On the top of it,do u think chinese don't have passive sensor suite like spectra ?Ludicrous to even think that.

I would seriously argue to consider what we get in mmrca now.We have to compete with j-20 ,j-35 and Chinese 6 gen now ( 2 already flying in prototypes ).We will be hopelessly outmatched by chinese in 10 years.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

The stealth planes( F-35) really have no room for avionics / pods that u mention.

F-35 the flying potato has serious issues.

half correct.
To have SEAD/DEAD capability, you need to take on shit tons of excess sensors and electronics suite on board. So you need space in nose-cone AND massive electrical alternator output from the onboard alternator that converts engine thrust to electrical power to power onboard equipment.
F-22, Su-35, etc. have the nosecone capacity to house such equipment. but it does NOT have massive overcapacity of onboard alternator that F-15, Su-30 and F-35 have.
Funny thing is, F-35 HAS the excess alternator capacity- far greater than F-22 but it doesnt have space to put in equipment to USE this extra power. Something only F-15 and Su-30 has.

you need BOTH qualities to do SEAD/DEAD is why USAF literally shelled out a billion dollars to modify 50 year old first bhisma pitamaha ( F-15 is older than Su-30 by approx 15-20 years) to be SEAD/DEAD.

Your RCS is irrelevant for SEAD/DEAD as your job isnt to evade ADS, its to detect them and lock on to them.

Also you seemed to've missed the point about Su-30 radar. The NIIM BARS is an exceptionally strong radar- its PESA, not AESA but turns out PESA is actually a BETTER radar setup for SEAD/DEAD as active array scanning is not completely emissions free like passive array scanning is, in listener mode. And in power output, there isnt a radar stronger than NIIM bars onboard a fighter jet today. higher the power output of a radar, stronger its 'eyesight'.

 

[liberalredditor]

I am telling u those figures are total bogous.
At the most rafale will go to 1-2 m2 if lucky.

It is at serious disadvantage vs j-20( already 300-400 built ) and even j-35 which has serious stealth shaping.On the top of it,do u think chinese don't have passive sensor suite like spectra ?Ludicrous to even think that.

i acknowledge that chowmeins are at the moment better than us due to constant research, greater funding and better academia,
but idts ki they will handover a full spec j35 to porkis, export version will be downgraded, stealth shaping doesnt matter, 300 km pe detect hota to ab 100 km pe hoga, astra mk1 use kar lenge, meteor aur gandiva saved
at the current situation, hopefully chin wouldnt go at war with us, at max its pork with their new j35 by next year or 2027, so rafale can handle all this

you seriously dont know about spectra war mode, go read testimonials of eurofighter pilots that how rafale vanished from their radar for a few minutes when rafale used war mode

 

[he-man]

i acknowledge that chowmeins are at the moment better than us due to constant research, greater funding and better academia,
but idts ki they will handover a full spec j35 to porkis, export version will be downgraded, stealth shaping doesnt matter, 300 km pe detect hota to ab 100 km pe hoga, astra mk1 use kar lenge, meteor aur gandiva saved
at the current situation, hopefully chin wouldnt go at war with us, at max its pork with their new j35 by next year or 2027, so rafale can handle all this

you seriously dont know about spectra war mode, go read testimonials of eurofighter pilots that how rafale vanished from their radar for a few minutes when rafale used war mode

I am telling u will full confidence ,chinese ew is seriously good at this point of time.

Rafale alone won't cut for us.We would need 2 squadrons of 5 gen.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

i acknowledge that chowmeins are at the moment better than us due to constant research, greater funding and better academia,
but idts ki they will handover a full spec j35 to porkis, export version will be downgraded, stealth shaping doesnt matter, 300 km pe detect hota to ab 100 km pe hoga, astra mk1 use kar lenge, meteor aur gandiva saved
at the current situation, hopefully chin wouldnt go at war with us, at max its pork with their new j35 by next year or 2027, so rafale can handle all this

you seriously dont know about spectra war mode, go read testimonials of eurofighter pilots that how rafale vanished from their radar for a few minutes when rafale used war mode

well operation Sindoor throws a huge spanner into the claim that chinku is ahead of us in tech.
Look at how badly their ADS failed compared to us. And its to be expected - ADS is a multi-system instrument, involving missiles, radar and tracker array - one finds the target, relays to the missile, missile locks on to target and then is guided by tracker array.

its MUCH more difficult to get competent in ALL 3 at the same time is probably why Chinese ADS is a hunk of junk - we meanwhile took piece-meal option. We first made missile.Then mated it with existing ADS. then we made radar, mated it with existing ADS...now we are working on tracker.

When you develop multi-layered system piece-meal, while using proven technology to jigsaw into it, you take longer, but you mitigate risk far better as you can isolate and develop individual system without compromising ADS needs.

 

[he-man]

half correct.
To have SEAD/DEAD capability, you need to take on shit tons of excess sensors and electronics suite on board. So you need space in nose-cone AND massive electrical alternator output from the onboard alternator that converts engine thrust to electrical power to power onboard equipment.
F-22, Su-35, etc. have the nosecone capacity to house such equipment. but it does NOT have massive overcapacity of onboard alternator that F-15, Su-30 and F-35 have.
Funny thing is, F-35 HAS the excess alternator capacity- far greater than F-22 but it doesnt have space to put in equipment to USE this extra power. Something only F-15 and Su-30 has.

you need BOTH qualities to do SEAD/DEAD is why USAF literally shelled out a billion dollars to modify 50 year old first bhisma pitamaha ( F-15 is older than Su-30 by approx 15-20 years) to be SEAD/DEAD.

Your RCS is irrelevant for SEAD/DEAD as your job isnt to evade ADS, its to detect them and lock on to them.

Also you seemed to've missed the point about Su-30 radar. The NIIM BARS is an exceptionally strong radar- its PESA, not AESA but turns out PESA is actually a BETTER radar setup for SEAD/DEAD as active array scanning is not completely emissions free like passive array scanning is, in listener mode. And in power output, there isnt a radar stronger than NIIM bars onboard a fighter jet today. higher the power output of a radar, stronger its 'eyesight'.

U are again confusing bars with irbis e.
Bars is relatively weak radar ,haven't been much upgraded ,it's the su-35 radar that is the most powerful pesa ever put in a fighter.

Rest of the points u may be correct.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

U are again confusing bars with irbis e.
Bars is relatively weak radar ,haven't been much upgraded ,it's the su-35 radar that is the most powerful pesa ever put in a fighter.

Rest of the points u may be correct.

well my info may be a bit dated, but as of 4-5 years ago, NIIM bars was the most powerful PESA radar in service in the world. I do expect Su-35 or Su-57 to have stronger radars, because NIIM bars is like 20 years old.

Rest of my point IS correct because i have luxury to speak to air force personnel face2face from the world over. It may be a bit of a brag, but i have phone number of Mr D. Antonov - the pilot for An-225 miriya. Why ? Because i used to live in a city that hosts the biggest airshow in north america every year - Abbotsford Airshow and mr Antonov came with the Miriya in 2010 and did a full on barrel roll after takeoff over our heads. Seeing the 8 engine beast do a full on barrel roll at 500 feet altitude is like seeing an elephant do a triple lutz in ice skating - such is the shock value, fyi.
over the years, its given me opportunity to talk to actual Air force pilots - as USAF, IAF ( Israeli, not Indian), RAF, RCAF- all show up from time to time to do Abbotsford airshow.

What i said about SEAD/DEAD isnt my words - its words of a F15 pilot himself who showed up there in 2018.
His clear cut words were ' F-15 is an immortal, its the only immortal we have and we will be using it till its metal frame rusts away in 2200 AD or something, same is what we expect from Su-30 operators if they have any sense'.
The 'why' to it- are his words, not mine, as i am not aviation expert, i am IT and math expert.

 

[assassin162]

Rafale is good for benchmarking for Tejas MK2, AMCA and upgraded Sukhoi. IAF and DRDO would be learning and implementing as many things as possible. Spectra or whatever it is, is not something we don't have, it's just they have already implemented what we are in process of implementing.

5~10 years down the line, I think DRDO would be doing equally better if not much better than franks on the this front. We are in a state of constant improvement in this regard. Radars, data fusion, jamming, deception is something not that India doesn't have, and its not that French have built something that won't be soon enough matched by us. And even in air launched weapons segment DRDO has laid out its full suite, and with the level of development will soon outmatch the Franks.

But with time the Franks will again start asking for exorbitant amount of money to।upgrade or even allow some integrations to happen. Hence, French perfume should be bought in a limited number only, else later on we will ourselves be calling it French fart.

what we lack is the engine, everything else is in contant state of improvement.

To conclude, we have the electronics and internal system of the jet in place, we have the weapons suite of the jet in place, we are constantly designing airframes and working on the materials of the airframes.......

And when we were going with so many fighter types, whether it be TEDBF, Tejas MK1, Mk2, AMCA, why didn't we plan one around Sukhoi's engine which we are almost making from scratch? Whose brilliant idea was to underfund kaveri, whose brilliant idea was to go for amrikan engines without having one more option atleast.

I think, three things should have been done simultaneously.

 

[Anupu]

well operation Sindoor throws a huge spanner into the claim that chinku is ahead of us in tech.
Look at how badly their ADS failed compared to us. And its to be expected - ADS is a multi-system instrument, involving missiles, radar and tracker array - one finds the target, relays to the missile, missile locks on to target and then is guided by tracker array.

its MUCH more difficult to get competent in ALL 3 at the same time is probably why Chinese ADS is a hunk of junk - we meanwhile took piece-meal option. We first made missile.Then mated it with existing ADS. then we made radar, mated it with existing ADS...now we are working on tracker.

When you develop multi-layered system piece-meal, while using proven technology to jigsaw into it, you take longer, but you mitigate risk far better as you can isolate and develop individual system without compromising ADS needs.

One thing and I have said this earlier elsewhere as well. The reason for our success was our AD was our networking capabilities our integrated C4I networks like IACCS and Akashteer. Along with decent amount of platforms we have.

Pakistanis didn’t have a good networking infrastructure. They may have some collaborative targeting but it was not as extensive or integrated as ours.

While same can’t be said for the Chinese. They have what they call the ICP Integrated Command Platform. It integrates all three forces air defence, isr, electronic warfare basically bringing everything on the same platform.

Now this system was built top down and quite rapidly. Many reports have come out that Chinese troops barely understand how it works and it is made without thier consultation.

We have taken a more bottoms up approach where we are developing diversified systems like IACCS, Akashteer, project Sanjay, project Shakti the Trishul BMS, Trigun system. We are slowly integrating them into a combined c4I system

Anyways what I am trying to say is this. We should not assume that Chinese systems will perform exactly as they did in the Pakistani hands. Although I do believe there are some glaring gaps that can’t be solved with just better networking. When used under the Chinese Integrated command platform. The performance of these systems may be better.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

One thing and I have said this earlier elsewhere as well. The reason for our success was our AD was our networking capabilities our integrated C4I networks like IACCS and Akashteer. Along with decent amount of platforms we have.

Pakistanis didn’t have a good networking infrastructure. They may have some collaborative targeting but it was not as extensive or integrated as ours.

While same can’t be said for the Chinese. They have what they call the ICP Integrated Command Platform. It integrates all three forces air defence, isr, electronic warfare basically bringing everything on the same platform.

Now this system was built top down and quite rapidly. Many reports have come out that Chinese troops barely understand how it works and it is made without thier consultation.

We have taken a more bottoms up approach where we are developing diversified systems like IACCS, Akashteer, project Sanjay, project Shakti the Trishul BMS, Trigun system. We are slowly integrating them into a combined c4I system

Anyways what I am trying to say is this. We should not assume that Chinese systems will perform exactly as they did in the Pakistani hands. Although I do believe there are some glaring gaps that can’t be solved with just better networking. When used under the Chinese Integrated command platform. The performance of these systems may be better.

Well one thing we know from indoor, is that chinese ADS will struggle no matter what, if we swarm-launch brahmos. Which means their mega dam they wanna build on Brahmaputra in medog county is a huge lemon. Look at geography of SE Tibet. It's not flat but kashmir like in deep mountain valleys and steep ridges. There are only 3 possible routes for China to put power cables down to connect this dam to their country's grid. So that means, we can literally shut down 20,000 mega watts of electricity at will, without even touching the dam: good luck putting ADS around 100s of kms of power cable and transformer relay stations in middle of nowhere.