Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Azaad]

It is better to buy an F-35 and have access to the latest hardware and software. It is a force multiplier and other nuances vis a vis its capabilities can be discussed in length but from where I am seeing, it has the following way of looking at it.

The F-35s can be kept isolated from offensive operations and strategic strike assets. It is like air-gapping them from mainstream doctrine and having a separate operational doctrine for F-35 for defensive purposes and support missions.

The debate is lost in technical aspects, running costs, and attached strings.

But looking at Indian posturing vis-a-vis China it is already very defensive. No way India is going to upset the status quo on the contrary it will try to avoid climbing the escalation ladder even if there is higher attrition on our side.

Furthermore, the risk of nuclear exchange will be a big contributor to quickly deescalate. I mean by the time you assign ground targets to IAF and load jets there will be de-escalation.

The InA posturing is showing no capabilities of being an invasion force.

A few other points suggest India is more focused on reactionary actions than preemptive ones.

I'd argue that we've lost whatever time we had to prepare for the upcoming war against China. That window closed last year.

Even if we were to order the F-35 today we can't expect them before a decade given LM's backlog to clear as I've mentioned in the post which in turn means a good 3 decades later Gen V.P. Malik's desperate statement - we'd fight with whatever we have will still hold true.

And that's only the beginning of our problems. The other point being how far are you willing to evolve a doctrine just to accommodate a type of FA in your ranks which is isolated from the rest of the system & I'm talking about the entire network the IAF has developed which in turn is networked with a grid encompassing all the other services networks.

What you're suggesting hasn't been attempted anywhere in the world for good reason coz it's impractical . We might as well base the USAF in India like the rest of the Quad & Philippines.

IAF will not buy a jet that can be remotely gimped by an intern in Maryland.

That's why I wrote what I wrote . You're echoing my position.

They will have to offer the same freedom of operation Israelis allegedly enjoy with regards to their F-35s. If they deny radar and sensors, replace them with our own GaN AESA.

You can forget it . Neither are we a NATO signatory & you've seen how they're treated. Moreover , we're certainly not Israel. To add to this , it's not a mature platform . The FOC is expected 2030 onwards . Pursuing the F-35 today is a fool's errand .

 

[hit&run]

I'd argue that we've lost whatever time we had to prepare for the upcoming war against China. That window closed last year.

Even if we were to order the F-35 today we can't expect them before a decade given LM's backlog to clear as I've mentioned in the post which in turn means a good 3 decades later Gen V.P. Malik's desperate statement - we'd fight with whatever we have will still hold true.

And that's only the beginning of our problems. The other point being how far are you willing to evolve a doctrine just to accommodate a type of FA in your ranks which is isolated from the rest of the system & I'm talking about the entire network the IAF has developed which in turn is networked with a grid encompassing all the other services networks.

What you're suggesting hasn't been attempted anywhere in the world for good reason coz it's impractical . We might as well base the USAF in India like the rest of the Quad & Philippines.


That's why I wrote what I wrote . You're echoing my position.

You can forget it . Neither are we a NATO signatory & you've seen how they're treated. Moreover , we're certainly not Israel. To add to this , it's not a mature platform . The FOC is expected 2030 onwards . Pursuing the F-35 today is a fool's errand .

The point is there is no war either with China or Pakistan.

There is no urgency shown by any of the branches and they are moving to whatever direction they want at their own pace.

As far as HAL is concerned then it does not have the brains, vision, skills or resources to build anything for this generation. Even if they can piece something together they do not know how to mass produce it.
All they can do is keep some jets in good shape like an ornament.

However, the gap needs to be filled just for the sake of filling the gaps. You know what I mean.
Whatever strings attached F-35 may come with (we will negotiate hard to have it covered for long-term upgrades) it will be aligning with Indian military posturing under Modi. I see no contradictions to not buy it.

 

[Ayan Barat]

> LockMart and top US officials are all excited to offer F-35 to India
> Indian FanBois are in a state of utter shock and trying everything from cussing to memeing in an effort to maintain their sanity
> American FanBois are losing their s*it considering we've S-400 and how easily F-35's secret would leak to Russia
> And Indian FanBois are mocking them saying that China already has J-35s
> Some US lawmakers and veteran are writing threads about all the security risks of this deal
> Indian FanBois are countering them that we already operate everything from AH-64s to P-8s so this too would be safe and USA should sell it
> Meanwhile Turkish FanBois are angered to the point of conducting a Jihad against the damned CAATSA

What an amazing day it is

 

[Hawkeye]

hard to believe our country's security is in the hands of a bunch of quota engineers and pension uncles at HAL.

Man, you have so much to learn, I guess you are new in this arena and
If you consider indian private cos as the next best entity to God...............

 

[Spitfire IX]

If IAF was serious it would have pushed GoI and MoD to make ADA do ToT for full assembly of Tejas to a pvt player and guaranteed pvt industry that orders will be 100% issued in large no.s . Production could then have been split betn pvt and HAL to speed up deliveries.

India has a Ministry of Defence, doesn't it? Has it pressed for de-monopolisation of design and production of fighter aircraft? If not, why not?

It is patently obvious that the state-owned monopoly on fighter development and production has produced very poor results. If India wants to stick with that it should not lament its fighter MIC producing very poor results.

Does no GOI have the guts to change the status quo of all fighter programmes suffering massive delays and all future fighter programmes prospectively suffering massive delays? If the system does not work, GOI should have the guts to recognise that and change it to something that stands a better chance of working.

 

[Azaad]

View: https://x.com/TurkishCentury/status/1854875863948366288

F-35 SUCKS MORE THAN YOU THINK!Former president of Türkiye's #defense acquisitions agency SSB on ridiculous #F35 preconditions:

Paying huge sums for the F35 isn't the problem, it's the utter dependence on the US that creates.

We couldn't fly our jets in 1974 because the US refused to provide their spare tires! Even the tiniest sanctions can have huge impacts.

F-35 requires regular code updates and a unique password just to turn on, that is provided to customers by the US daily. What if they stop giving it to you?

US completely oversees and remotely controls your entire F-35 supply chain. What you need, when you need it, how many, you don't tell them, they tell you. And you have to pay to get it.

An F-35 engine overhaul center was going to be set up in Türkiye. But Americans said there would be a restricted section within it that would only employ US staff and be off limits to Turkish staff. What kind of partnership is this?

No technical access to the hot sections of the engines whatsoever.l

No access to US-provided avionics or source codes.

Even the old RAM paint that gets scraped off before repainting the aircraft gets shipped back to the US, to keep us from reverse-engineering the chemicals.

This may sound like sour grapes coming as it does from the Turks but it's true for the most part . I believe this tweet was linked here a few days ago .

 

[Poseidon]

I am following Indian defence news actively everyday since Jan 2011.

This is the best day in that 14 year period.

Jai F35.

 

[Mangal]

Some times it's good to keep a big danda to scare the dogs away. Though you may never use it or may not be allowed to use it.
F 35 will do the job till AMCA arrives.

 

[Hari Sud]

Is Pakistani meltdown of India acquiring American F-35 stealth fighter is complete or do they have any more propaganda left?

They have been misleading their own populace of victories upon victories over India in previous wars.

Recent valuable propaganda is that Pakistan open doors for all Indian Muslim to come to Pakistan which will double their population. Then all of them together will attack India and conquer it and Muslim rule in the subcontinent will be back.

Other line of propaganda is that they have the bomb and they can destroy India completely, forgetting that India has bomb too.

This propaganda is believed by Madrassas graduates who are ready to fight. These graduates believe that earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it. They will quote verses after versus from their scripture to prove their point. Interestingly, 30% of adults walking around in Pakistan are Madrassas graduates, who have been recruited in the Army and civil service. You have to thank General Zia Ul Haq in 1980s for that.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Is Pakistani meltdown of India acquiring American F-35 stealth fighter is complete or do they have any more propaganda left?

They have been misleading their own populace of victories upon victories over India in previous wars.

Recent valuable propaganda is that Pakistan open doors for all Indian Muslim to come to Pakistan which will double their population. Then all of them together will attack India and conquer it and Muslim rule in the subcontinent will be back.

Other line of propaganda is that they have the bomb and they can destroy India completely, forgetting that India has bomb too.

This propaganda is believed by Madrassas graduates who are ready to fight. These graduates believe that earth is flat and the Sun revolves around it. They will quote verses after versus from their scripture to prove their point. Interestingly, 30% of adults walking around in Pakistan are Madrassas graduates, who have been recruited in the Army and civil service. You have to thank General Zia Ul Haq in 1980s for that.

Incidentally there's isn't much meltdown in Pakistan over F-35.

The only people even remotely having a meltdown with this are Indian enthusiast who are trying to decide whether it'll be a good stop-gap measure or prove to be the final nail in our MIC's coffin, with us becoming the next Taiwan. And American enthusiastic who are torn between gaining a potent ally in this part of Aisa and losing their secrets of F-35 to Russia.

But if I remember correctly Sir then you were the one who had problem with Yusuf because he was...well, "Yusuf". So I'm assuming whatever you wrote is just an off-topic rant that you just found a reason to vent out.

Anyways, as for Pakistan they know everything from their quwwat in LSCO with us to our own 5th gen program. This is primarily the reason they focus so much on COIN; the recent use of military grade mines by terrorist is an excellent example. So, no need to get happy...our concern is China, not Pakistan

 

[trombone]

I had only heard about premature ejaculation before. Now seeing it in this thread. Not over any sexy bombshell, but a white elephant in golden handcuffs.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

I think this euphoria around F-35 will die down in a week to 10 days time as there are huge reservations on both sides.

As per the joint statement the US has already set Stryker/Javelin/P-8I for this year's "hegemon tax" quota.

India is a non serious nation... I have repeatedly said... without a military humiliation that cannot be media managed (like Balakot & Ladakh) nothing positive is going to happen.

Modi has remained(for the most part) undefeated in elections... he is writing the script for his defeat on the battlefield with all his humongous delusions like Vasudhaiva kutumbkam, yudh nahi... buddha, not an era of war etc.

He wishes to become taller than Nehru... he will get a worse defeat than Nehru got in 1962.

 

[maximus777]

It is better to buy an F-35 and have access to the latest hardware and software. It is a force multiplier and other nuances vis a vis its capabilities can be discussed in length but from where I am seeing, it has the following way of looking at it.

The F-35s can be kept isolated from offensive operations and strategic strike assets. It is like air-gapping them from mainstream doctrine and having a separate operational doctrine for F-35 for defensive purposes and support missions.

The debate is lost in technical aspects, running costs, and attached strings.

But looking at Indian posturing vis-a-vis China it is already very defensive. No way India is going to upset the status quo on the contrary it will try to avoid climbing the escalation ladder even if there is higher attrition on our side.

Furthermore, the risk of nuclear exchange will be a big contributor to quickly deescalate. I mean by the time you assign ground targets to IAF and load jets there will be de-escalation.

The InA posturing is showing no capabilities of being an invasion force.

A few other points suggest India is more focused on reactionary actions than preemptive ones.

The intent of the F35 is SEAD. It has to be the tip of the spear. If we keep them isolated wouldn't that defeat purpose? Then our 3rd, 4th, 4.5th gen aircraft would have to fight in a highly contested airspace. In such a scenario, there will be casualties/POWs and then the whole cabal of experts/opposition/peaceniks go into randirona mode all over!!

 

[Brood Father]

You know why this happened?View attachment 25142

Pakistan bitchslapped IAF out of the sky & paraded around blindfolded, because when Jf-17 was in similar shaky status as Tejas at early 2010s... They backed it with their full force & inducted 50 without BVRs, while ours called it a 3-legged chertah.
And today IAF has to celebrate barely surviving AAMs from an inferior Air Force & make face-saving claims that literally noone other than Indian civilians were fooled by.

Combat is an extension of politics & policies.

Your point is valid if you think we have only one enemy , but the major problem is not Pakistan but dragon in the north
Can you fight against them with sub standard jets ? That would be sending pilots to die without adequate missiles ..
Again designing and making jets do not come under IAF
And now when IAF has taken leap of faith and have given 100% behind Tejas it's now up to HAL to make it deliver as promised ..this is HAL and only HAL blame to take ..

 

[Charlie]

In the wake of the ACM's comments regarding HAL, this debate is worth a listen


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbQn1mlkaDw

Again, people here keep on defending the HAL, and blaming Airforce preferring import over indigenous. But airforce is asking for competition in manufacturing the same aircraft and breaking the monopoly.

Here people keep on saying that private industry cannot do it or they only go after profit or not willing to do.

1 HAL didn’t put its money in the beginning it was the government who gave them funding. How can you except private company to put their own money. They need to be assured cost + profit or no private player will come in

2 It will take private sector some time to get things working, it took so many year and still HAL is not able to deliver, atleast the private contractors they won’t take as much time as HAL did but there are going to be some challenges for them as well.

3 if we have some competition then there will be better accountability from Hal. May the better one get the order. HAL will be on it toes if they don’t deliver, they can loose order.

4 It they give one assembly line now to a private sector company it might take them 15 years to mature and when it come time to manufacture ACMA, they will read to challenge HAL at that time. But for that the investment need to happen now.

 

[Blademaster]

I think this euphoria around F-35 will die down in a week to 10 days time as there are huge reservations on both sides.

As per the joint statement the US has already set Stryker/Javelin/P-8I for this year's "hegemon tax" quota.

India is a non serious nation... I have repeatedly said... without a military humiliation that cannot be media managed (like Balakot & Ladakh) nothing positive is going to happen.

Modi has remained(for the most part) undefeated in elections... he is writing the script for his defeat on the battlefield with all his humongous delusions like Vasudhaiva kutumbkam, yudh nahi... buddha, not an era of war etc.

He wishes to become taller than Nehru... he will get a worse defeat than Nehru got in 1962.

Well he was gungho at the time of Balakot but when the pilot was shot down and he was forced to restrain any further military response, I do not think he has much faith in the armed forces' ability to end a fight on India's terms. He's pushing for reforms but he can't do everything himself. He needs to find another avatar of the late Manihar Parrihar to tame MoD and control the armed forces, especially the foreign lobby.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

I'd argue that we've lost whatever time we had to prepare for the upcoming war against China. That window closed last year.

It has been a regular feature in Indian history that after every few decades or atleast once in a century India becomes "ripe" for invasion. Due to certain philosophies and political constructs the situation keeps emerging... there hasn't been a single century in the last 10... when India wasn't invaded... the success of the invader can vary.

 

[Nutcracker]

But airforce is asking for competition in manufacturing the same aircraft and breaking the monopoly.

Same aircraft ?
Private players won't enter into manufacturing "unproven" tech because they've seen Imported Airforce giving piece meal orders of LCA, So instead of betting on domestic product they will happily Collab with LM for F21 manufacturing.

 

[randombully]

Should buy 15-20 of this one, 60+ cargo capacity, reliability matches c17, modern, cheaper than c17, plus c17 lines closed.
Instead of 80+mta.
15-20 of these, and 40-50 of Brazilian c390.
Much better than
40-60 a400m or 60-80 c390.
Also upgrade the current ill76 to this standard

 

[Ayan Barat]

reliability matches c17