AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@SKC @haldilal @hit&run
There is a ridiculous typo in my previous post's last point :
> DoD requits the best minds...
Can you edit it to "recruit"?

 

[SKC]

@SKC @haldilal @hit&run
There is a ridiculous typo in my previous post's last point :
> DoD requits the best minds...
Can you edit it to "recruit"?

Done!

 

[shauryaman65]

TEDBF+ORCA thread :
https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/tedbf-or-orca-updates.59/

Thread 'HAL ORCA Discussions'

Jun 30, 2024

a thread to discuss about ambitious project of making twin-engine fighter jets by HAL
TEDBF - Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter; for the Indian Navy
and
ORCA - Omni-Role Combat Aircraft; for the Indian Air Force

• johny_baba
• Replies: 1
• Forum: Indian Air & Space Forces

• 

Tejas MK1/1A LCA thread:
https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/lca-tejas-mk-i-mk-ia-news-and-discussion.112/unread
Tejas M2/MWF thread:
https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/ada-tejas-mark-ii-medium-weight-fighter.123/unread
Su-30MKI thread:
https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/iafs-sukhoi-su-30mki.128/

@SKC @haldilal @hit&run
I request admins & members to move TEDBF, ORCA, LCA, MWF, MKI replies to above appropriate thread.

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Leave 4.5 gen ORCA, MWF or even Rafale, not even 5th gen AMCA can replace Su-30MKI with its massive, size, payload, range, agility, sortie time, especially after Super-Sukhoi upgrade. In BVR, AMCA will have advantage. In Dogfight, MKI will win most of the times IMO. Unfortunately its airframe design is obsolete.
Just like tejas MK1 LCA -> Tejas MK2 MWF, we need AMCA -> AHCA to replace MKI.


Our country is most populous now with many technical colleges in even small cities. We have abundant resources & manpower but economical & R&D management is not proper overall. ISRO succeeding, rest all lagging. Latest news shows stampede like situation for jobs. What happend in Bangladesh in last week can happen in our country also.
It has been 3 decades+ now for our IT industry to work with West.
>S.Korea producing KF-21 Boramae has population of 51.7 million & around 100,000 sqm.
>Sweden with area 450,000+ sqm has population 10.6 million with history of making good jets.
>Turkey with area 783,000+ sqm & population 86.2 million had its 1st flight of Kaan.

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Short note - Until we make/JV/import a strong engine like F-135 for F-35, AL-51 for Su-75, IMO from tech PoV i don't see its genuine future in IAF, hopeless for IN with SEDBF.
I will reply in MWF thread about future of 1-engine IAF jet.

Disagree, its range and payload are not that much more than mk2. Only like 1.5tons more and one less hardpoint (lol).

Dogfights just dont happen in any realistic scenario so the "supermaneuverability" of su30 is nothing substantial. And once we have the kaveri**** engine DRDO has been cooking is installed in mk2. It will have about the same thrust as su30 but being much lighter.
AMCA enjoys similar advantages, but loses out on payload if in stealth config.

And ofcourse, AHCA? a heavy stealth jet is a weird idea, considering the limitations of internal bay.
And quite frankly, we dont have enough time to get started on more jet projects. When AMCA enters service jet combat would be very different from now because of the introduction of 6th gen fighters, AI drones, loyal wingmen etc. etc.
No need to bother with a missile truck now if we have to start another project again.

Edit: Its not kaveri, its another 110KN indigenous engine for the mk2.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

You can quoute specific portions or lines of a post & reply to avoid confusion.

Disagree, its range and payload are not that much more than mk2. Only like 1.5tons more and one less hardpoint (lol).

Who's range & payload is less than MK2/MWF? Which 2 jets are you comparing?

Dogfights just dont happen in any realistic scenario

So you mean in current era everything will be finished in BVR?
For example, have you seen Youtube videos of border encounters b/w Turkey Vs Greece jets?

so the "supermaneuverability" of su30 is nothing substantial.

Ok, so not only GoI/MoD/IAF but all nations who operate TVC jets made a huge mistake? Is that what you mean?

And once we have the kaveri engine DRDO has been cooking is installed in mk2. It will have about the same thrust as su30 but being much lighter.

MK2/MWF vs Su-30, two different categories. Airframe performance & engine performance are 2 different things. I have sufficiently explained with calculations & examples in past posts.

AMCA enjoys similar advantages, but loses out on payload if in stealth config.

No medium jet can be universal solution. Stealth is the future. It is natural technology evolution. A stealth jet will spearhead a battle, supplemented by 4.5 jets following behind.
And bcoz AMCA loses on internal payload, AHCA is needed. Rest of the world is already working on heavy weight future jets - FCAS, GCAP, NGAD.

And ofcourse, AHCA? a heavy stealth jet is a weird idea, considering the limitations of internal bay.

NGAD, F/A-XX, FCAS, GCAP are going to be WEIRD HEAVY stealth jets. Thats what i mean by AHCA. Otherwise are you in favor of HMRCA tender when Su-30MKI retires?
Heavy does not mean a bomber kind of jet. F-22, F-15, Su-30, Su-57, J-20, these all are heavy fighters.
And 6th gen will weigh 30-60% more as per features outlined. Please visit 6th gen thread & see the differences b/w 4/5/6gen.
Radar, SAMs, AAMs have improved a lot, hence IWB was made a feature 40 years back in ATF program & entire world followed the concept. The IWB concept dates back to 1950s.

And quite frankly, we dont have enough time to get started on more jet projects. When AMCA enters service jet combat would be very different from now because of the introduction of 6th gen fighters, AI drones, loyal wingmen etc. etc.
No need to bother with a missile truck now if we have to start another project again.

Looking from neutral PoV, a country not having time, money, manpower, what they can/can't make, social, political problems, are all internal problems. Based on that, war will be won or lost.
Requirements arise from global advancements & conflicts with some country.
Rest of the world including China would have 6th gen fighters, AI drones, UCAV Wingmen, that's why we need AHCA supplemented by AMCA.
If we can't make AMCA on time + if we can't understand what is AHCA = then we should not even talk about UCAV Wingman which is much more advanced & complex concept.

 

[shauryaman65]

You can quoute specific portions or lines of a post & reply to avoid confusion.

aight ty

Who's range & payload is less than MK2/MWF? Which 2 jets are you comparing?

I didnt say that. I said range and payload of su30MKI is not THAT much greater than medium weight fighters like Mk2. 1.5 tons more payload capacity and 1 less hardpoint to use it.

So you mean in current era everything will be finished in BVR?
For example, have you seen Youtube videos of border encounters b/w Turkey Vs Greece jets?

9/10 fights between 2 jets would most likely end before dogfight could even be considered an option, especially between 2 modern military powers with advanced radars and BVR missiles.
EVEN with heavy jamming due to EW environment, both jets could still take out each other before a dogfight even remotely becomes a probability.
Also, border encounters are in no way representative of cases of full out war.

Ok, so not only GoI/MoD/IAF but all nations who operate TVC jets made a huge mistake? Is that what you mean?

No I did not say that. I said in BVR fights, which most modern fights between jets would end up as, supermaneuverability is not as important as it used to be and should not something worth prioritising in a jet of this era. Especially for multirole jets which are more important than ever.

No medium jet can be universal solution. Stealth is the future. It is natural technology evolution. A stealth jet will spearhead a battle, supplemented by 4.5 jets following behind.

Agreed

NGAD, F/A-XX, FCAS, GCAP are going to be WEIRD HEAVY stealth jets. Thats what i mean by AHCA. Otherwise are you in favor of HMRCA tender when Su-30MKI retires?
Heavy does not mean a bomber kind of jet. F-22, F-15, Su-30, Su-57, J-20, these all are heavy fighters.
And 6th gen will weigh 30-60% more as per features outlined. Please visit 6th gen thread & see the differences b/w 4/5/6gen.

When i said stealth jets I only had 5th gen jets in mind. Mistake on my part for forgetting 6th gen jets.

Rest of the world including China would have 6th gen fighters, AI drones, UCAV Wingmen, that's why we need AHCA supplemented by AMCA.
If we can't make AMCA on time + if we can't understand what is AHCA = then we should not even talk about UCAV Wingman which is much more advanced & complex concept.

To be clear, by AHCA you mean a 6th generation NGAD type jet right? If so I agree on the need for AHCA.
Thought you meant another 5th gen jet. Kind of caused confusion.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I didnt say that. I said range and payload of su30MKI is not THAT much greater than medium weight fighters like Mk2. 1.5 tons more payload capacity and 1 less hardpoint to use it.

If you want to compare Su-30MKI & Tejas M2/MWF then you can write an agenda post on one of their threads. We can discuss there. For now, 1.5tons more sounds less but means present load of MK2 + 7-8 BVR-AAMs more. It is like double the AA load of medium jet.
Look at MKI Vs Rafale, it looks like 2 parents with their 2 kids

And MKI vs Tejas looks like Mrs. Sukhoi just delivered her baby boy Tejas

9/10 fights between 2 jets would most likely end before dogfight could even be considered an option, especially between 2 modern military powers with advanced radars and BVR missiles.
EVEN with heavy jamming due to EW environment, both jets could still take out each other before a dogfight even remotely becomes a probability.

It is a practical thing which needs a real conflict to produde data. Till then every country can test their SAMs & AAMs on drones & RC retired jets & state efficiency of their missiles, but nobody would like to bet with their life & hence EW is not a small thing. The missile or radar seeker has sensitivity levels & if it is overwhelmed with powerful raiation then its parts of seeker/circuit could be fried. That's why we have dedicated "wild weasel" jets like E/A-18G Growler, etc with big jammer pods. 5th gen tries to incorporate the antennas within airframe as much as possible & powerful engines are needed to produce enough electricity for all the avionics.
For example, we have diagram of F-22 antenna suite -



6th gen is supposed to have better EW.

Also, border encounters are in no way representative of cases of full out war.

That's how spark becomes inferno.
Full scale war = border encounters X 10.

No I did not say that. I said in BVR fights, which most modern fights between jets would end up as, supermaneuverability is not as important as it used to be and should not something worth prioritising in a jet of this era. Especially for multirole jets which are more important than ever.

Every nation is not at same tech level. Hence Supermaneuverability will be needed as long as :-
- guns are used, bcoz it can be fired only in one direction & line of sight.
- LOBL CCMs are used, bcoz if enemy jet does not have spherical EO-DAS & RF coverage then the strategy is to get in the blind spots.
- BVR-AAMs can be dodged after burnout, bcoz they don't chase like CCM but calculate leading hit point.

To be clear, by AHCA you mean a 6th generation NGAD type jet right? If so I agree on the need for AHCA.
Thought you meant another 5th gen jet. Kind of caused confusion.

We went for LCA & not MWF only bcoz we didn't have higher thrust engine for medium jet.
We are going for AMCA only bcoz we don't have higher thrust engine for heavy jets.
What we consider medium is light for nations like USA & Russia.
My college senior told me 2 decades back that management doesn't want to use AL-31 engine for R&D on HCA like China did. And see the result - J-20 & J-10C squads flying with domestic engines, some with TVC variants.
Ideally, without corruption & scams since 1947,
LCA should have been inducted in 1990s,
MWF in 2000s,
TEDBF in 2010s,
AMCA by now in mid-2020s &
AHCA by 2035-40.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I want to make a correction -

Ideally, without corruption & scams since 1947,
LCA should have been inducted in 1990s,
MWF in 2000s,
TEDBF in 2010s,
AMCA by now in mid-2020s &
AHCA by 2035-40.

Actually w/o corruption, scams, jealosy, inter-state racism, discouragement, etc,
comparing our nation's size to France, Sweden, etc,
after HF-24 Marut in 1960s, with help of best minds across the country,
LCA (light weight jet) would have got inducted in 1970s,
MWF, TEDBF (medium size jets), HCA like Su-27 in 1980s,
AMWF/ATEDBF like Rafale, 5th gen AMCA in 1990s,
AMCA & 4gen HCA MLUs, 5gen AHCA like F-22 in 2000s,
6th gen AHCA R&D at par with USA today.
CAUTION - I used LCA, MWF, AMCA, TEDBF, HCA, AHCA as just pure acronyms as per weight, not as per today's technology.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

I want to make a correction -


Actually w/o corruption, scams, jealosy, inter-state racism, discouragement, etc,
comparing our nation's size to France, Sweden, etc,
after HF-24 Marut in 1960s, with help of best minds across the country,
LCA (light weight jet) would have got inducted in 1970s,
MWF, TEDBF (medium size jets), HCA like Su-27 in 1980s,
AMWF/ATEDBF like Rafale, 5th gen AMCA in 1990s,
AMCA & 4gen HCA MLUs, 5gen AHCA like F-22 in 2000s,
6th gen AHCA R&D at par with USA today.
CAUTION - I used LCA, MWF, AMCA, TEDBF, HCA, AHCA as just pure acronyms as per weight, not as per today's technology.

add corruption ,vested interest (lobbies) , nuclear tests , sanctions , wars in the list too those are also big drivers of problems we are facing today

 

[scholar of war]

Whenever I read about sixth-gen, seventh-gen fighters I feel like this.

When I was 10 years old in 2004 I watched National Geographic and Discovery Channel and got excited about laser weapons, hydrogen cars, jet pack etc.

20 years later no practical hydrogen car, jet pack and laser weapon exist.
(hydrogen cars and jet packs does not have competitive energy economy and high-power lasers ionise the air making them impractical)

We continue to read about prototypes but no full scale production of sci-fi things.

weapons are meant to be used for 40-50 years.

We are still using a modern version of the ancient designs for small arms.

Caseless ammo still does not exist. All futuristic small arms designs are being replaced by conventional designs.


There is a joke in my field(CFD):
"someone in 1980s: rans are outdated and large eddy simulations(LES) will replace it 2-3 years"
and here in 2024, most industries are still using rans, and les is still impractical.


Countries continue to struggle to maintain 4.5 gen fleets and even major economies are having economic slowdown.

I can't see any country other than the US deploying any 6th-generation fighter before the 2070s.
Most 6th gen claimed technologies like variable cycle engines, laser weapons etc do not exist.

some countries may claim their 5+ gen planes as 6th gen but that will remain a marketing gimmick.

 

[shauryaman65]

Whenever I read about sixth-gen, seventh-gen fighters I feel like this.
View attachment 4549View attachment 4550
When I was 10 years old in 2004 I watched National Geographic and Discovery Channel and got excited about laser weapons, hydrogen cars, jet pack etc.

20 years later no practical hydrogen car, jet pack and laser weapon exist.
(hydrogen cars and jet packs does not have competitive energy economy and high-power lasers ionise the air making them impractical)

We continue to read about prototypes but no full scale production of sci-fi things.

weapons are meant to be used for 40-50 years.

We are still using a modern version of the ancient designs for small arms.

Caseless ammo still does not exist. All futuristic small arms designs are being replaced by conventional designs.


There is a joke in my field(CFD):
"someone in 1980s: rans are outdated and large eddy simulations(LES) will replace it 2-3 years"
and here in 2024, most industries are still using rans, and les is still impractical.


Countries continue to struggle to maintain 4.5 gen fleets and even major economies are having economic slowdown.

I can't see any country other than the US deploying any 6th-generation fighter before the 2070s.
Most 6th gen claimed technologies like variable cycle engines, laser weapons etc do not exist.

some countries may claim their 5+ gen planes as 6th gen but that will remain a marketing gimmick.

Well, they say technology advances exponentially so who knows.

 

[BON PLAN]

AGENDA - Will Naval AMCA be good or bad?

CAUTION - some images have multiple watermakrs. IDK original source. I use Google Image Search.
CAUTION - I never meant to dump all 4.5 gen jets & we should have only 5gen, that's impossible for few more decades.

View attachment 4225

> Some people criticize "Oh! so new design, new R&D, new wind tunnel test, new timeline, etc..." Well, that's the paid job of any type & level of engineering teams - IT, electronics, civil, mechanical, electrical, aeronautical. Govt. or private job, at least 8hrs of sincere effort has to be given. But good & bad management are seen everywhere.

> AMCA (along with LCA, MWF, ORCA, TEDBF) should be treated as generic acronyms only rather than product designation. The AMCA design visible today could/should evolve in MK2 with JV engine, like X-35 evolved to F-35, YF-22 to F-22, FC-31 to J-31/35. We have infographic how AMCA-AF MK1/TD has evolved so far but that cannot be end of journey for MK2/MK3/MK4.

View attachment 4229

> Ideally, a common production line for Navy & AF is best, already proven by Rafale, F-35, etc.
I vouched for idea of N-AMCA in beginning bcoz the future is with stealth. On internet there were concepts of AMCA fuselage used for TEDBF & add canards, or basically move the wing backwards & bring the tail forward as canard like in J-20. This config allows more lift & hence lower takeoff & landing speeds on carriers.

View attachment 4271

After looking at N-LCA with levcons, i edited AMCA drawing like Su-57.
View attachment 4284
If people are ok with TEDBF canards then an enthusiast can do this much at least but i guess not possible with DSI.

> Navy cannot & should not risk with 1 engine. F-35 with 1 engine was mistake due to joint requirement, many other compromises, already accepted. But does this mean AF can/should risk with 1 engine? 1-engine AF-jet on malfunction cannot land just anywhere.
Although 1 engine means less maintenance, but bcoz we are not making good jet engines, yet, future 5th & 6th gen requirement cannot be fulfiled by us with 1 engine - not enough thrust & electricity.
F-35 failed even in meeting some 5th gen characteristics & now it is getting ECUin ICU
So until a country can get a single powerful engine by self/JV/import, its future in 1-engine jet in AF is slim & in Navy is hopeless.
We pay Insurance premium for :-
- cars (those who have car),
- bikes,
- medical hospitilization & surgery,
- life loss cover,
NOTE - Many wan't powerful overbudgeted bikes, cars, phones, etc.
but don't wan't to invest in extra engine with more maintenance cost but also more capability.
What is more important - insured chance to save airframe with extra engine & maintenance cost OR reduced maintenance cost with 1 engine with assured loss of airframe?
> Next point is cost of 5th gen is greater than 4.5gen. Then why making AMCA-AF in 1st place but making Navy suffer & how long it should suffer?
For 1st gen till today & eternity it has & will always be said that current gen costlier than previous gen & future gen costlier than current gen. It is a cycle - as new gen arrives it is supplemented by older gen with MLUs & then retured some day. So it is not a point to stop/stall/delay R&D. The point of corrosion by salty moisture is covered in R&D, again not an excuse. There will always be minority newer gen & majority older gen initially & then later majority newer gen & minority older gen, then again cycle will repeat. Let's get over this point.
Also, cost in capitalist nation should not be compared to cost in communist & socialist mixed economies.

> Another point is naval strike weapons. We feel that AMCA's IWB is inadequate bcoz we are not ready even to imagine that :-
1> Already said above - current AMCA design can/should evolve & adpat to Navy. Common production line means catering to heavier Naval version due to stronger MLG & bigger wing. Empty weight diff. b/w F-35A&C is 2.4 tons. Is that a reason to stop/delay R&D on stealthy Navy jets?
2> current naval strike weapons can also evolve. Our mind is stuck with old Harpoon, Exocet & new but huge kind of weapons. Ok then, their makers will keep supplying old weapons till eternity.

But elsewhere R&D is going on newer weapons, newer jets, to be compatible with eachother.
View attachment 4267

Also anti-radiation missile AGM-88G AARGM-ER

View attachment 4206

> Medium jet will obviously have payload limitations, another reason for AHCA. So be it. We should be requirement & performance oriented. NGAD & F/A-XX requirement will weigh 30-60% more than current flagship jets. So IAF & IN should also get new appropriate engines by self/JV/import. Airframe R&D should not suffer.

> SAM & AAM technology have also improved a lot with much better Pk. Will Navy jets face far less deadly SAMs & AAMs from previous era, than AF jets? So be it USA, Russia, China, Europe, their 4/4.5gen like F-15EX, F-16 Bl-70/72, F-18 SH, Su-3X, MiG-29/35, Rafale, EF-2000, our Su-30MKI, MiG-29K, Mirage-2000 will be gone in few decades, but in a symmetrical war they will be shot down like mosquitos. So the 5th gen will spearhead an offence for SEAD/DEAD objective followed by 4.5gen.

> DoD recruit the best minds, only hindered by funds, right? Then keep the design part ready. GoI/MoD/CCS should never stop for CAD, CFD, wind-tunnel tests. Just like small-scale UAVs are tested, may be fighter jets can also be tested like X-36.
View attachment 4312


In the end i would say that Navy also should develop some kind of true 5gen jet supplemented by 4.5gen jet.

In our school books we read about "green revolution", "5 year plans". Now our country need political & technical revolution.
War erupts suddenly. Either adpat & defend or keep giving reasons & die. Another invasion & slavery waiting for us later in this milennium.​

I like you post.
I don't understood for years why India didn't choose to study a medium common dual engine jet for Navy and Air force.
Rafale is a good exemple.
F35 also, but the "B" model specifications are too intrusiv for the 2 others...

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I like you post.
I don't understood for years why India didn't choose to study a medium common dual engine jet for Navy and Air force.
Rafale is a good exemple.
F35 also, but the "B" model specifications are too intrusiv for the 2 others...

Yes Rafale is very good example but in 5th gen concept/thread i can't highlight 4th gen jet much. IMO, we don't need VTOL jet like F-35B.
> Some major concerns are depleting AF squadron # & possible 2.5 front war with China, Pakistan. Hence Tejas MK1/1A(LCA) & Tejas MK2(MWF) are tried to be fielded a.s.a.p. as these 2 jets with 1 engine have far less R&D & cost compared to totally new jet.
But IMO, our border conflict on Ladakh/Aksai-Chin & Arunachal Pradesh are not that big to cause full scale war. Nor China can afford multi-front war with India & with West+ Eastern nations in South China sea.
So we should not stall our R&D.
> We have global CEOs but domestic success is a challenge.
> Like my college senior said - everybody in GoI/MoD/CCS/DRDO/ADA/NAL/HAL are not equal clones with same enthusiasm, creaivity, vision, experimenting, risk taking attitude.
Ultimately they did not experiment with engines which they had/have.
> Political scams have eaten up funding.
> Import mentality.
> ADA/NAL treated like small IT/electronics firm. HAL treated like small factory.
> Some people get stuck on component level of Navy jet pesimistically -
- MLG is heavier
- Wing is bigger
- Big weapons with non-folding wings
- Double engine CAPEX & OPEX with dual engine jet
- Naval stealth is bad & useless
etc, etc
They don't look at bigger picture of technology evolution & reqirement, product performance & battle outcome, until a western nation does something & the world follows.
> It is obvious that a common production line jet has to be looked at from Navy PoV 1st so that AF version automatically has T/W & other advantages.
> Naval AMCA MK1 won't be made due to advertised TEDBF. But IMO, Naval AMCA MK2 should be explored along with JV engine.
> Like i said -
- In era of every gen 1/2/3/4/5/6/future there have been & will be same type of challenges & talks.
- AMCA, TEDBF should be treated as acronym rather than product.
- All jets cannot be of same gen. 5th gen will lead & 4.5 gen will follow. So TEDBF & ORCA can be same jet of 4.5gen for AF & Navy, supplementing a leader 5gen jet for AF & Navy.
That gives only 2 projects of 4.5gen & 5gen.

Perhaps you can tell us in 6th gen thread if France is planning for Naval FCAS or some other jet.

 

[SlayingHell]

As everyone can see the 6th-Gen Programs now there are only 4. USA's NGAD, France-Led FCAS, Chinese Concept? and UK+Japan+Italy GCAP. In that, the FCAS and GCAP are going conservative in Airframe stealth shaping with only MARGINAL and not GENERATIONAL leap. In regarding Materials such as RAM, there MAY BE* advancements exceeding F-35 or F-22 in FCAS or GCAP but as we know, structural stealth contributes to 80% of overall stealth profile. I expect only the NGAD and Chinese* maybe to have Wide-Band Stealth with absence of Ruddervators. I went through a lot of Material and what i found regarding features that are incorporated in GCAP especially that gives it almost 6-Minus Generation(with con of presence of ruddervators) are
1. Digital Beam Forming in Radar. Optical Radar is still a fantasy as of now. The AESA Radars are still new technology and it takes time for them to become secondary. They would have same GaN modules but may incorporated more cooling measures.
2. More Powerful Processors than current generation for Sensor Fusion. Separation of Flight Avonics aka Split Avionics.
3. 2D Thrust Vector Nozzles means more stealthier profile from side and rear aspects.
4. Most Important thing is High kW engines. The Japanese XF-9 is able to make 180kW which in twin configuration can generate upto 360kW. RR vaguely said that GCAP can overall have 1MW worth of monstrous power that can power Lasers.
5. The high kW is key to 6th-Generation and not Variable Cycle Engines, the latter can be add on benefit. With such high power, DIRCM and Lasers can become more powerful and there may come a time in future where missiles radome can't resist the damage.

I really think just like how Stealth is the factor determining boundary of 4th and 5th. The 5th and 6th boundary will be the Engine. Which means it can't be grasped by secondary players who seem to be building their own 5th gen jets now.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Come to 6th gen thread if you wish to discuss on it.

B

Thread 'Global 6th Generation Fighter Aircraft Projects'

Jul 23, 2024

Welcome to the era of development of latest Fighter jets, popularly known as 6th generation Fighters, the 5th gen hunter-killers.

There may not be ISO standard of complex product as a whole like combat aircraft, just like many household & commercial products like trains, trucks, cars, bikes, computers, networking devices, operating systems, applications. But the H/w & S/w components do have ISO standards, Patents, IPR (Intellectual Property Right) with numerous permutation, combination of final product/service. The basic objective remains same in every domain -...

• Bhartiya Sainik
• Replies: 21
• Forum: Global Arms and Industry

• 

 

[Spitfire IX]

As everyone can see the 6th-Gen Programs now there are only 4. USA's NGAD, France-Led FCAS, Chinese Concept? and UK+Japan+Italy GCAP. In that, the FCAS and GCAP are going conservative in Airframe stealth shaping with only MARGINAL and not GENERATIONAL leap. In regarding Materials such as RAM, there MAY BE* advancements exceeding F-35 or F-22 in FCAS or GCAP but as we know, structural stealth contributes to 80% of overall stealth profile. I expect only the NGAD and Chinese* maybe to have Wide-Band Stealth with absence of Ruddervators. I went through a lot of Material and what i found regarding features that are incorporated in GCAP especially that gives it almost 6-Minus Generation(with con of presence of ruddervators) are
1. Digital Beam Forming in Radar. Optical Radar is still a fantasy as of now. The AESA Radars are still new technology and it takes time for them to become secondary. They would have same GaN modules but may incorporated more cooling measures.
2. More Powerful Processors than current generation for Sensor Fusion. Separation of Flight Avonics aka Split Avionics.
3. 2D Thrust Vector Nozzles means more stealthier profile from side and rear aspects.
4. Most Important thing is High kW engines. The Japanese XF-9 is able to make 180kW which in twin configuration can generate upto 360kW. RR vaguely said that GCAP can overall have 1MW worth of monstrous power that can power Lasers.
5. The high kW is key to 6th-Generation and not Variable Cycle Engines, the latter can be add on benefit. With such high power, DIRCM and Lasers can become more powerful and there may come a time in future where missiles radome can't resist the damage.

I really think just like how Stealth is the factor determining boundary of 4th and 5th. The 5th and 6th boundary will be the Engine. Which means it can't be grasped by secondary players who seem to be building their own 5th gen jets now.

Secondary 5G players India/Turkiye/S Korea have not even developed a 4G engine to power their 5G fighter. Producing an engine suited to a 6G fighter is, I guess, decades away for them.

 

[BON PLAN]

In that, the FCAS and GCAP are going conservative in Airframe stealth shaping with only MARGINAL and not GENERATIONAL leap.

LOL.
As for now we only have power point to see.
In the GCAP case, it evolves a lot these last weeks... the final result may be surprising.

 

[BON PLAN]

Secondary 5G players India/Turkiye/S Korea have not even developed a 4G engine to power their 5G fighter. Producing an engine suited to a 6G fighter is, I guess, decades away for them.

Indeed.
To study and produce a new frame is a 4-5 years effort.
To study and produce a world top engine is at least a 10 years effort, even for those who are trained to.
To study and produce a complete weapon system (ie not only intial air defense mode) is a 10 to 15 years effort.

 

[TopWatcher]

Indeed.
To study and produce a new frame is a 4-5 years effort.
To study and produce a world top engine is at least a 10 years effort, even for those who are trained to.
To study and produce a complete weapon system (ie not only intial air defense mode) is a 10 to 15 years effort.

Rafeal is only the answer. Reliable and no sanctions.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafeal is only the answer. Reliable and no sanctions.

such a big super power as India need to become self reliant in defense. It's natural.
Rafale is maybe the last jet purchase on the shelf by India.
As Scorpene in sub.

When we see how strong are the link between France and India and how aligned we are, the future may be written by 2 hands, in common, on several domains (civilian nuclear plant, weapons programs, space....)

 

[AYoungBrotchen]

Brother, just relax.

I have told multiple times that I neither have time nor motivation to go into details.
I can give you all the resources needed but you have to study them yourself.


Spoon feeding stops at UG level courses. When we start studying at PG level, we have to do everything ourselves. In PhD, supervisors do not even provide resources, students have to do everything themselves.

Higher-level study is all about independent work.

Advanced fluid mechanics is a subject that requires a high level of understanding of mathematics.

Below is the NS equation in incompressible, non-conservative form with the assumption that viscosity is constant.

View attachment 3086
These are famous Navier -Stokes equations developed in the 1840s. If you can solve these equations analytically you will get a million dollar prize.

The above equation is the very basic needed to understand Advanced fluid mechanics.

now below we have written the same equation in simplified non-dimensional form.



View attachment 3087

below is the basic 2 equation standard KE model used to numerically solve these equation.

View attachment 3093

Many people in this forum do not have a technical background and forget about a degree in mechanical or electrical engineering, and you are asking to explain post graduate - level topics in detail.


I am not scaring anyone but if you can't understand these equations then you will never be able to understand the lift, drag, aerodynamics etc. The people who developed models to solve these equations are the current generation's best. Spallart who developed the spallart-allmaras model of turbulence works at Boeing. Menter who developed the SST K-omega model works at Ansys.





View attachment 3090
Above are the velocity triangles of an axial flow compressor with a rotor and stator. I don't even know if anyone can understand this or not.


View attachment 3096

The above is a simplified cycle showing the difference between the ideal and actual Brayton cycle. You have no idea about Brayton cycle or the difference between the actual or ideal cycle.

You do not understand the concept of efficiency. I have explained to you the scientific definition of efficiency yet you decide to ignore that.

Total efficiency or overall efficiency does exist.
Efficiency overall = efficiency 1 X efficiency 2 X efficiency 3 ......................x efficiency n

for ex >>>
Brayton cycle or gas turbines are also used as stationary gas turbines for electricity generation on land.

The overall efficiency is = cycle efficiency X mechanical efficiency X generator efficiency


another example is when a gas turbine is used for a turboshaft or turboprop where output is given in kilowatts and you can easily calculate efficiency by dividing output power by input power.
Input power is the calorific value of the fuel.

Efficiency = shaft power / ( mass flow rate fuel X calorific value of fuel)

It's not that I don't like to teach people but I don't like to teach advanced concepts when people have no idea of basics.

And let me remind you my primary job is doing research and sometimes teaching PG students.


I will help anyone and provide guidance to those who want to learn advanced fluid mechanics, computational fluid dynamics, turbulence modelling, advanced engineering mathematics etc and I will share videos, codes, ebooks etc if someone needs them but in the end, people have to learn these topics themselves.


And sorry if my post sounds rude but sometime I do get irritated.

Came across this post. My field is adjacent to yours so am curious to ask regarding solvers for NS equation.

I have to discretizate the equations using a relevant scheme for the problem statement (mixed finite elements etc), perform numerical analysis and then implementation using C++. What sort of work happens in your field? Do you develop faster solvers for systems of linear equations or maybe develop better schemes for numerical computations? I am really curious.