AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[DumbPilot]

View attachment 6426

View: https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1823343834115268772

ngl, I'm kinda sick of seeing renders or old images

 

[Spitfire IX]

Since CCS go ahead for AMCA was announced some months ago, what has been done?

Since it was announced that SAFRAN was selected to develop an engine for AMCA more than a year ago, what has been done?

Since private company interest in assembling AMCA was reported, what has been done?

I am interested in what concrete progress has been made.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

ngl, I'm kinda sick of seeing renders or old images

Since CCS go ahead for AMCA was announced some months ago, what has been done?

Since it was announced that SAFRAN was selected to develop an engine for AMCA more than a year ago, what has been done?

Since private company interest in assembling AMCA was reported, what has been done?

I am interested in what concrete progress has been made.

You guys will have to do hunger strike in front of offices of MoD, NAL, ADA, DRDO, HAL, IAF.

 

[Clawreed]

Amca crying in the corner.

View: https://x.com/Doha104p3/status/1824830869774684348?t=whmIbvR-Mljty50W2tJa6Q&s=19

 

[randombully]

Amca crying in the corner.

View: https://x.com/Doha104p3/status/1824830869774684348?t=whmIbvR-Mljty50W2tJa6Q&s=19

That's nothing by 2030 china will have 600+ j20's in its service and by 2030 we are expected to have less than 600 fighter jets in our entire airforce and none will be 5th gen and only 20-30% could be qualified as 4.5 jen if all tejas mka1 are delivered and few su 30 upgraded to super sukhoi.
I already lost hope for mrfa.

 

[BON PLAN]

we also have got Rafale

only 36....
Very very few when China has now 14 sqd of J-20.

We don't know how potent is J-20, but I don't think idiot enought the chinese to built a bad but costly plane in such Qty.

 

[BON PLAN]

If only because of the arm twisting that the Americans do, otherwise its pretty clear that the Rafale does not match up to the Super Hornet, in performance, logistics and integration into the Indian Navy ORBAT.

Rafale is smaller, lighter, has a better agility, more load, more range.
The SH radar is expected to be better because bigger, but the RCS os Rafale is smaller. And the AESA Rafale range is enough to exploit the full Meteor range (ie >60km in no escape zone, when the best AMRAAM is short of at least 30%).
The sole asset of SH are : price (a little bit smaller) and the weapons versatility (far bigger thant the french counterpart).

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

only 36....
Very very few when China has now 14 sqd of J-20.

We don't know how potent is J-20, but I don't think idiot enought the chinese to built a bad but costly plane in such Qty.

I replied to him in different context. He jokingly criticised supercruise. So i applied his logic & jokingly stated that Rafale supercruising at M 1.4 is also joke, which is not the case.

 

[shauryaman65]

The sole asset of SH are : price (a little bit smaller) and the weapons versatility (far bigger thant the french counterpart).

SH is 60-80 million per jet while Rafale is 100-120 million. While having significantly more access to weapons, and better air to ground weapons. Also now with SM-6 Being able to be used on SH, its another advantage over rafale.
"Sole asset" Yea no. The major benefit of fielding SH would be the integration with the other american systems we use already, and also the logistical benefit it would have over rafale since we are setting up the production line for the same engine that SH uses for the Tejas mk2 i believe.

Rafale is smaller, lighter, has a better agility, more load, more range.

It doesnt have foldable wings so saying its smaller is kind of wrong.
Better agility is not that important for a carrier based aircraft, and since we dont even field CATOBAR carriers i doubt we can make use of the better payload. And TBF carrier based aircrafts usually dont see them use their full payload even in CATOBAR capable carriers. Same case with Supercruise. Not that important for carrier based operations.
What is more important is the carrier bringback payload. How much of the payload can the aircraft safely land with on the carrier. And SH has the highest bring back capacity of any carrier based jet. At 4.5 tons. While rafale is around 2.5 tons i believe.


TLDR: SH has access to more weapons AND better weapons, better radar, better logistical integration, foldable wings thus making it smaller, Highest carrier bringback payload capacity and is around 40-50% cheaper than rafale.

Its obvious. SH is simply a better carrier based aircraft than rafale. (No shit that an aircraft designed around carrier operations is better than an aircraft that happens to be carrier capable)

 

[Spitfire IX]

deleted

 

[BON PLAN]

SH is 60-80 million per jet while Rafale is 100-120 million. While having significantly more access to weapons, and better air to ground weapons. Also now with SM-6 Being able to be used on SH, its another advantage over rafale.
"Sole asset" Yea no. The major benefit of fielding SH would be the integration with the other american systems we use already, and also the logistical benefit it would have over rafale since we are setting up the production line for the same engine that SH uses for the Tejas mk2 i believe.


It doesnt have foldable wings so saying its smaller is kind of wrong.
Better agility is not that important for a carrier based aircraft, and since we dont even field CATOBAR carriers i doubt we can make use of the better payload. And TBF carrier based aircrafts usually dont see them use their full payload even in CATOBAR capable carriers. Same case with Supercruise. Not that important for carrier based operations.
What is more important is the carrier bringback payload. How much of the payload can the aircraft safely land with on the carrier. And SH has the highest bring back capacity of any carrier based jet. At 4.5 tons. While rafale is around 2.5 tons i believe.


TLDR: SH has access to more weapons AND better weapons, better radar, better logistical integration, foldable wings thus making it smaller, Highest carrier bringback payload capacity and is around 40-50% cheaper than rafale.

Its obvious. SH is simply a better carrier based aircraft than rafale. (No shit that an aircraft designed around carrier operations is better than an aircraft that happens to be carrier capable)

I'm not the sole to find SH18 a little bit short : it has only been sold to Australia and Kuwait, in relatively low quantity..... A pity for a US jet.

commonality engine with Tejas : Tejas use a F404. Tejas Mk2, a paper plane, may use F414... It was not seen as a big advantage by Indian Navy...

SM6 on SH18. never seen such news. What for?

Price : The dry price of Rafale is under 100millions. As write by french Senate in 2015 : 78 millions€ of production cost for the M version. = dry price around 85 € million. add some inflation....
( C model cost 68 € million so 75 € million dry price.).

my source (sorry, in french because french Senat...) : https://www.senat.fr/rap/a14-110-8/a14-110-818.html#toc288

Supercruise : Rafale is supercruising with a belly tank and 4 AAM when this capacity was never cited for SH.

better radar ? Bigger for sure. Better? We don't know. Indian Navy found it very adequat, as UAE (Note that UAE, en 2011, required a more powerfull radar than the only one then available, a prototyp made with US T/R modules. The same modules used in the US radars.... With the serially produce RBE2 AESA, made of european modules, the UAE no more needs more power.... interesting isn't it ?)

 

[shauryaman65]

SM6 on SH18. never seen such news. What for?

U.S. Navy Confirms SM-6 Air Launched Configuration is 'Operationally Deployed'

The SM-6 Air Launched Configuration (ALC), known by its official designation as the AIM-174, is the longest range air-to-air missile ever fielded by the U.S. Navy.

www.navalnews.com

Its a VERY long range missile, if included in the weapons package for the SH, rafale has no comparable alternative.

Price : The dry price of Rafale is under 100millions. As write by french Senate in 2015 : 78 millions€ of production cost for the M version. = dry price around 85 € million. add some inflation....
( C model cost 68 € million so 75 € million dry price.).

I'm fairly certain your quotation is for the price of production of the jet and not the price its sold at.
Since france itself has bought it for 120 million each before:

France buys 42 Rafale jets for more than $5.5 billion

The purchase comes as French lawmakers express concerns about the Franco-German project to develop a successor to the fighter.

www.defensenews.com

But lets find something more useful, the cost for export variants.

Australia bought 24 SH for 2.9 billion, around 120 million. (similar to rafale? no. since this is export cost)

https://archive.ph/20120802173822/http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6619

And India bought 36 rafales for 7.8 billion, more than 200 million.

Latest Rafale deal News, Photos, Latest News Headlines about Rafale deal-The Hindu

Latest Rafale deal News and Updates, Special Reports, Videos & Photos of Rafale deal on The Hindu. Articles on Rafale deal, Complete Coverage on Rafale deal

www.thehindu.com

better radar ? Bigger for sure. Better? We don't know.

Better for sure. Since APG79 has about 60% more TRMs than RBE2-AA.
This means:
Rafale has range of 140km against a 2.7m^2 target

Serious Squall - Avionics International

The Dassault Aviation Rafale is the newest combat aircraft serving France’s Air Force and Navy. Over the past few years, the twin-engine fighter has replaced the Armée de l’Air’s older […]

www.aviationtoday.com

SH has range of 150km against a 1m^2 target.

AN/APG-79 - Radartutorial

www.radartutorial.eu

 

[shauryaman65]

While having significantly more access to weapons, and better air to ground weapons

I actually understated on how much better SH is when it comes to air to ground weapons compared to rafale.

SH has access to, of which rafale does not have a comparable alternative to:
AGM-88 HARMs, JSOW glide bombs, GBU-53 Storm Breaker and JASSM stealth land attack cruise missile, LRASM anti ship stealth cruise missile, MALD-J decoys. (i know about the Storm shadow but thats technically low observable kekw)

Yea, you read that correctly. Rafale the OMNIROLE fighter has NO ARM MISSILES. (rip SEAD/DEAD missions).

Plus point thankfully is that we might integrate our own ARM- Rudram on the rafale. Which will be massive if its followed through.

 

[daya]

Quantity is itself a quality, alas we didn't have the quantity, even sanctioned quantity is not being catered to.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Dear @shauryaman65 @BON PLAN
Debating Naval fighters F-18SH Vs Rafale-M will not help AMCA.
But it could be interesting to discuss if AMCA would defeat these 2 jets in both BVR & dogfight.

 

[shauryaman65]

Dear @shauryaman65 @BON PLAN
Debating Naval fighters F-18SH Vs Rafale-M will not help AMCA.
But it could be interesting to discuss if AMCA would defeat these 2 jets in both BVR & dogfight.

your right, that really was a serious side track in AMCA thread.

Although, considering they are all carrier capable, would be interesting to compare TEDBF to both rafale and Super hornet. Wonder how good ours will do compared to the established 4.5 gen carrier based fighters.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

your right, that really was a serious side track in AMCA thread.

Although, considering they are all carrier capable, would be interesting to compare TEDBF to both rafale and Super hornet. Wonder how good ours will do compared to the established 4.5 gen carrier based fighters.

Good Idea - TEDBF Vs Rafale, F-18 SH
Here is the thread for it:

Thread 'TEDBF or ORCA Updates'

Jun 30, 2024

TEDBF or ORCA Updates here please

• darkflame
• Replies: 14
• Forum: Indian Navy

• 

 

[DumbPilot]

Yea, you read that correctly. Rafale the OMNIROLE fighter has NO ARM MISSILES. (rip SEAD/DEAD missions).

Although this is continuation of that off topic thread, SEAD/DEAD necessarily does not have to use HARMs. In modern day and age no one will be fighting something like a SA-21/S-400 with planes, instead ground based cruise missiles/ship based missiles would generally be launched at it

 

[Blood+]

U.S. Navy Confirms SM-6 Air Launched Configuration is 'Operationally Deployed'

The SM-6 Air Launched Configuration (ALC), known by its official designation as the AIM-174, is the longest range air-to-air missile ever fielded by the U.S. Navy.

www.navalnews.com

Its a VERY long range missile, if included in the weapons package for the SH, rafale has no comparable alternative.


I'm fairly certain your quotation is for the price of production of the jet and not the price its sold at.
Since france itself has bought it for 120 million each before:

France buys 42 Rafale jets for more than $5.5 billion

The purchase comes as French lawmakers express concerns about the Franco-German project to develop a successor to the fighter.

www.defensenews.com

But lets find something more useful, the cost for export variants.

Australia bought 24 SH for 2.9 billion, around 120 million. (similar to rafale? no. since this is export cost)

https://archive.ph/20120802173822/http://www.defence.gov.au/media/DepartmentalTpl.cfm?CurrentId=6619

And India bought 36 rafales for 7.8 billion, more than 200 million.

Latest Rafale deal News, Photos, Latest News Headlines about Rafale deal-The Hindu

Latest Rafale deal News and Updates, Special Reports, Videos & Photos of Rafale deal on The Hindu. Articles on Rafale deal, Complete Coverage on Rafale deal

www.thehindu.com

Better for sure. Since APG79 has about 60% more TRMs than RBE2-AA. View attachment 7190
This means:
Rafale has range of 140km against a 2.7m^2 target

Serious Squall - Avionics International

The Dassault Aviation Rafale is the newest combat aircraft serving France’s Air Force and Navy. Over the past few years, the twin-engine fighter has replaced the Armée de l’Air’s older […]

www.aviationtoday.com

SH has range of 150km against a 1m^2 target.

AN/APG-79 - Radartutorial

www.radartutorial.eu

Perhaps the RBE2 should be replaced with a version of Uttam down the line. From what I hear, the baseline variant was able to hold missile lock on a clean Tejas at 140+ km range.

 

[BON PLAN]

U.S. Navy Confirms SM-6 Air Launched Configuration is 'Operationally Deployed'

The SM-6 Air Launched Configuration (ALC), known by its official designation as the AIM-174, is the longest range air-to-air missile ever fielded by the U.S. Navy.

www.navalnews.com

Its a VERY long range missile, if included in the weapons package for the SH, rafale has no comparable alternative.

Very interesting !
A weapon that exceed the AMRAAM range for high asset targets (AEW, tankers...)