AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Viktor]

Government should make an arrangement for developing engine with any agency of the world with full technology transfer irrespective of money involved.

Why would any foreign agency (read country) agree to share it's crown jewel tech ?
At max a JV with some ToT not full

 

[daya]

Why would any foreign agency (read country) agree to share it's crown jewel tech ?
At max a JV with some ToT not full

I read somewhere that in yesteryears a jet development was attempted with Egypt, but failed due to reluctance of government, engine was included in that package..

 

[Spitfire IX]

I read somewhere that in yesteryears a jet development was attempted with Egypt, but failed due to reluctance of government, engine was included in that package..

Yes. RR had been asked to design an afterburning version of the Orpheus for a British project. .Project cancelled, so no funding for the engine. India did not want to fund completing it for use in Marut and opted instead for the engine being developed for the Egyptian Helwan HA-300 fighter, which in its turn was cancelled and the engine along with it.

 

[daya]

Yes. RR had been asked to design an afterburning version of the Orpheus for a British project. .Project cancelled, so no funding for the engine. India did not want to fund completing it for use in Marut and opted instead for the engine being developed for the Egyptian Helwan HA-300 fighter, which in its turn was cancelled and the engine along with it.

This shows short-sighted ness and lack of vision of our leadership.. unfortunate..

 

[BON PLAN]

i heard M 88 engines fourth version hv/will hv 95-105 KN thurst....AMCA will be medium weight fighter, near F35 size nd weight. F35 is using 194 KN engine, than why cant two 95 KN versions of M88 engine with atleast 190 KN thurst is enough for AMCA??? we r planning to make AMCA mark 1 with two GE F414 engine with 98 KN thurst (total 196 KN engine).

M88-2 : 50/75 Kn thrust - serially produce
M88-3 : 60/90 Kn - 1 prototyp tested ten years ago more or less (for UAE ??? )
M88-4 : 70-105Kn - only a paperboard project.

It is interesting to remember that french air force wanted that the M88-2 evolved with a better lifetime and a smaller global possession cost instead of a best thrust. That means that it is aways possible to deal a smaller lifetime for more thrust, even on M88-2.
Note also that the air intakes of Rafale can accomodate a 87Kn engine without modification. I would not be surprised to hear that the UAE Rafale will have 85 or 87Kn engines.... so why not India ?

 

[Harry]

Hey folks
Out of curiosity I want to know that is there any stealth fighter jet which can open its weapon bay at supersonic speed and fire a missile or they do it in subsonic always.

 

[BON PLAN]

Hey folks
Out of curiosity I want to know that is there any stealth fighter jet which can open its weapon bay at supersonic speed and fire a missile or they do it in subsonic always.

I'm quite sure F22 is doing so in supersonic mode.

 

[705-Lira]

Nine years after development of South Korea’s KF-21 Boramae began, the government has signed a deal with Korea Aerospace Industries for the production of 20 fighter jets.

South Korea orders first batch of KF-21 fighters

The order comes as the manufacturer reports the jet's development is currently 80% complete.

www.defensenews.com

View attachment 7409

9 years LOL , the KF-X program started in 2001, that is 23 years ago.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

9 years LOL , the KF-X program started in 2001, that is 23 years ago.

The KF-X is a horribly mismanaged project that only got to fly "this soon" because of Lockheed's help. And the program still hasn't met it's targets fully, and had to be downgraded midway because the US blocked the export of key technologies.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Hey folks
Out of curiosity I want to know that is there any stealth fighter jet which can open its weapon bay at supersonic speed and fire a missile or they do it in subsonic always.

Good question, and the answer is yes.
You may not have seen posts in previous pages. Supersonic launch at higher altitude increases range of weapons & reduces time to target. 1 of the purpose of Supercruise is to launch weapons w/o increasing IR signature.
Back in the 1960s the XB-70 Valkyrie supersonic bomber was tested but cancelled.
Now again, SR-72 type jet, PAKDP, etc are speculated as supersonic launchers.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Will AMCA have Towed Decoy?

 

[SlayingHell]

Will AMCA have Towed Decoy?

View attachment 7941

Missiles are evolving faster than Fighter Jets. I don't know how effective this thing gonna be in future. If the Missile has dual seeker like Israeli Stunner Missile the usefulness of this may be questionable.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Will AMCA have Towed Decoy?

Missiles are evolving faster than Fighter Jets. I don't know how effective this thing gonna be in future. If the Missile has dual seeker like Israeli Stunner Missile the usefulness of this may be questionable.

Yes, but there is still time before all missiles can become multi-spectral. Till then for next few decades, Towed Decoy might help. Our Rafales also have them.

 

[Spitfire IX]

According to the dubious source idrw.org, the plans for AMCA are changing...
https://idrw.org/indian-mod-revisits-amca-development-and-production-model/

It is proposed to have two different companies building prototypes (HAL and A.N Other) and subsequently to have two different production lines. It has long been proposed to build 40 Mk1 aircraft with GE engines - but that could increase with delays to the Mk2 programme, intended to use an Indian built engine. Splitting production of 40 aircraft over two lines will make them more expensive to build. It would show which line could produce at a lower cost, though, as well as ending HAL's monopoly over fast jet production in India.

On the basis of the plans for prototypes being revised, I guess that prototype construction by A.N.Other would not begin before 2026/2027. FF 2030/2031? Testing completed 2033/2034?

Time to consider ordering Su-57 as a matter of necessity? Any more delays in AMCA and Mk1 will be entering IAF service nearer 2040 than 2035.

 

[Spitfire IX]

The KF-X is a horribly mismanaged project that only got to fly "this soon" because of Lockheed's help. And the program still hasn't met it's targets fully, and had to be downgraded midway because the US blocked the export of key technologies.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Yes, US blocked supply of several technologies. Nevertheless these were re-sourced or developed internally. Aircraft is now in production. Block 1 A2A capable examples are scheduled for delivery 2026. Block 2 with added A2G capability are scheduled for delivery 2028 IIRC. ROK air force will likely have 40 KF-21 in service before or around the time the first AMCA prototype flies.

Given the handicap of a sleeping development partner, I think that the ROK and leading contractor KAI have managed the project rather well so far.

You call KF-X a 'horribly mismanaged project'. KF-X, T-FX and AMCA all kicked off around 2010. I suggest having a look at progress in KF-21, KAAN and AMCA to gauge how well they have been managed

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Yes, US blocked supply of several technologies. Nevertheless these were re-sourced or developed internally. Aircraft is now in production. Block 1 A2A capable examples are scheduled for delivery 2026. Block 2 with added A2G capability are scheduled for delivery 2028 IIRC. ROK air force will likely have 40 KF-21 in service before or around the time the first AMCA prototype flies.

Given the handicap of a sleeping development partner, I think that the ROK and leading contractor KAI have managed the project rather well so far.

You call KF-X a 'horribly mismanaged project'. KF-X, T-FX and AMCA all kicked off around 2010. I suggest having a look at progress in KF-21, KAAN and AMCA to gauge how well they have been managed

Are you seriously comparing a fighter program where all key technologies aside from say the engine and the ejection seat is being worked out by the developer indigenously, against two fighters programs heavily reliant on off-the-shelf OEM parts and heavy assistance from experienced western engineering and design consultation teams. And despite all of these advantages these two countries had, their jets are still incomplete. A somewhat stealthy Rafale contemporary and the other, an aeronautical equivalent of a flying brick without key sensors. And this is the best theses two countries managed with a decade plus of handholding and OEM parts. Sour grapes you say ?

 

[Spitfire IX]

Are you seriously comparing a fighter program where all key technologies aside from say the engine and the ejection seat is being worked out by the developer indigenously, against two fighters programs heavily reliant on off-the-shelf OEM parts and heavy assistance from experienced western engineering and design consultation teams. And despite all of these advantages these two countries had, their jets are still incomplete. A somewhat stealthy Rafale contemporary and the other, an aeronautical equivalent of a flying brick without key sensors. And this is the best theses two countries managed with a decade plus of handholding and OEM parts. Sour grapes you say ?

You don't seem to like other countries succeeding where your country has not.

What's the problem with managing programmes so they get results? If that is abysmal management, what do you call the management of the AMCA programme?

 

[SlayingHell]

According to the dubious source idrw.org, the plans for AMCA are changing...
https://idrw.org/indian-mod-revisits-amca-development-and-production-model/

It is proposed to have two different companies building prototypes (HAL and A.N Other) and subsequently to have two different production lines. It has long been proposed to build 40 Mk1 aircraft with GE engines - but that could increase with delays to the Mk2 programme, intended to use an Indian built engine. Splitting production of 40 aircraft over two lines will make them more expensive to build. It would show which line could produce at a lower cost, though, as well as ending HAL's monopoly over fast jet production in India.

On the basis of the plans for prototypes being revised, I guess that prototype construction by A.N.Other would not begin before 2026/2027. FF 2030/2031? Testing completed 2033/2034?

Time to consider ordering Su-57 as a matter of necessity? Any more delays in AMCA and Mk1 will be entering IAF service nearer 2040 than 2035.

We gonna have Randi Rona everyday isn't it? Dude, the AMCA CCS approval has been given recently and its been not even some 6 Months. Iam tired of people bringing junk into equation. Sorry but i couldn't help but question common sense of someone who brings the topic of importing su-57.
Geopolitically,
1. Su-57 now has to be imported from Russia. The Same Russia which has problem producing even decent numbers for their own and we produced more Tejas during the same time from 2014 to 2024 even with engine supply chain disruptions than Russia produced Su-57 despite controlling every nut and bolt of production line.
2. Importing Su-57 will have Sanctions raining on us. Only kindergarten level of Geopolitics understanding would make someone assume that just because we imported Oil by giving middle finger to West amidst war, the situation gonna be same with Importing crucial weapons such as Su-57
3. We are moving away from Russia and seeking some critical parts like F-404 and F-414 engines from USA. Do you really think USA would let us freely import Su-57 without pulling shenanigans without inducing supply chain constraints artificially?
Regarding Product itself,
1. Su-57 engine blades are visible and they are one highest "Pick Me" of Radar. Atleast Rafale has hidden blades. So much for fifth generation plane.
2. With Importing Su-57, we have to again import all the surrounding infrastructure and especially Missiles. Russian AAMs performance is questionable and hence even the most ardent Import Airforce(IAF) junked them and opted for domestic missiles and european missiles. Russians would no doubt milk India by not allowing Astra on Su-57. It is even doubtful of incorporating them since its internal bay and there is size considerations.
3. Russians themselves didn't field Su-57 against lowest tier threat Ukraine showcasing their Confidence on it and you are asking it to field against more advanced enemy PLAAF.
Anytalk of importing Su-57 is outright braindead and atleast there is merit in argument of importing more Rafale as stopgap.
Officially, IAF rejected Su-57. That's it. Stop beating a dead horse.

 

[Spitfire IX]

I said 'consider' the Su-57. If it's a bad idea, I suggest considering something else .I assume that F-35 is not on offer. The alternative is KF-21. That would be my first choice in India's shoes, the object being to get a 5G fighter into IAF service within a few years. I would class block 1 and 2 KF-21 as 5G- but block 3 should have an IWB so satisfy the LO weapons carrying ability to class it as 5G.

If GOI is prepared to keep IAF waiting 12-15 years for a 5G fighter (my guess), fine, AMCA should do the trick.

PS yes, I also think more Rafale should be ordered

 

[Corvus Splendens]

You don't seem to like other countries succeeding where your country has not.

What's the problem with managing programmes so they get results? If that is abysmal management, what do you call the management of the AMCA programme?

Don't compare the Turkish and Korean programs to AMCA. They are nowhere near indigenous. The AMCA program has made great progress considering every piece of tech is being developed here, and not bought/license produced. These other countries do not have a comparable indigenous effort hence it's idiotic to measure "success". What we consider success and what the others consider success is a bit different.

I said 'consider' the Su-57. If it's a bad idea, I suggest considering something else .I assume that F-35 is not on offer. The alternative is KF-21. That would be my first choice in India's shoes, the object being to get a 5G fighter into IAF service within a few years. I would class block 1 and 2 KF-21 as 5G- but block 3 should have an IWB so satisfy the LO weapons carrying ability to class it as 5G.

If GOI is prepared to keep IAF waiting 12-15 years for a 5G fighter (my guess), fine, AMCA should do the trick.

PS yes, I also think more Rafale should be ordered

The Su-57 is worthless as a 5th gen platform. AMCA will come around early 2030s, and until then Tejas will have to do. The KF-21 is worse than the Su-57 right now, and has no grounds. Rafale is available and the Mk2 Tejas is coming up.