AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[BON PLAN]

I'm fairly certain your quotation is for the price of production of the jet and not the price its sold at.
Since france itself has bought it for 120 million each before:

France buys 42 Rafale jets for more than $5.5 billion

The purchase comes as French lawmakers express concerns about the Franco-German project to develop a successor to the fighter.

www.defensenews.com

I have write "production cost" and add a 10% margin to have something near a customer price.

The 5.5 billion for 42 planes includes french VAT (20%) and some weaponery. The VAT is not applicated on foreign sell.

 

[BON PLAN]

And India bought 36 rafales for 7.8 billion, more than 200 million.

These 7.8 billions were made of :

Jets price (for about 65.6% of the total)
Weapons (MICA, Meteor, SCALP at least)
A multiyears high level support (more than 70% availability requested, including fuel supply....)
2 air bases accomodation
Spare parts, training equipments
somes IAF specifics (that was impossible to ask to USA ! )
AND 50% OFFSETS (because offsets are added to the price, of course).

So for the jet itself :
7.8 billions /1.5 = 5.2 billions once the offsets removed.
65.6% = 3.41 billions for 36 jets = 94.75 millions per jet.

 

[BON PLAN]

Since APG79 has about 60% more TRMs than RBE2-AA.

This means:
Rafale has range of 140km against a 2.7m^2 target

Serious Squall - Avionics International

The Dassault Aviation Rafale is the newest combat aircraft serving France’s Air Force and Navy. Over the past few years, the twin-engine fighter has replaced the Armée de l’Air’s older […]

www.aviationtoday.com

BIG LOL.

1) the sole picture of the RBE2 AESA, shown, was that of the prototyp (called BRE2 AA for Antenne Active = activ antenna), made with US T/R modules.
The european modules are smaller (and more potent as already explained yesterday).

2) The "source" (https://www.aviationtoday.com/2009/06/01/serious-squall/) is dated 2009. At those time there was only the RBE2 PESA. And the datas about the range (140km for a 2.7m² target) is on line with the PESA range.
the serially produce RBE2 AESA is said to double the range of the PESA according to the french air force pilots.

 

[BON PLAN]

I actually understated on how much better SH is when it comes to air to ground weapons compared to rafale.

SH has access to, of which rafale does not have a comparable alternative to:
AGM-88 HARMs, JSOW glide bombs, GBU-53 Storm Breaker and JASSM stealth land attack cruise missile, LRASM anti ship stealth cruise missile, MALD-J decoys. (i know about the Storm shadow but thats technically low observable kekw)

Yea, you read that correctly. Rafale the OMNIROLE fighter has NO ARM MISSILES. (rip SEAD/DEAD missions).

Plus point thankfully is that we might integrate our own ARM- Rudram on the rafale. Which will be massive if its followed through.

It's true.
The Anti Radar mission is actually assured with Hammer bomb. It is a weakness.
I hope to see Rudram integrated, and why not a french air forces purchase.

 

[BON PLAN]

if AMCA would defeat these 2 jets in both BVR & dogfight.

we will have to wait nearly 10 years to have a first answer.
In Dogfight the soles slightly better than Rafale are F22 and Su30MKI.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

we will have to wait nearly 10 years to have a first answer.
In Dogfight the soles slightly better than Rafale are F22 and Su30MKI.

TVC must for AMCA as long as guns are used. DoD working on it.

 

[daya]

We all are living in an utopian world...

 

[Hari Sud]

If any amount of gentle and diplomatic persuasion to US does not get us the engine supply; do we have an alternative….

The only alternative would be purchase Russian Su-57 fighter.

Does this alternative exist or is it pie in the sky.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

If any amount of gentle and diplomatic persuasion to US does not get us the engine supply; do we have an alternative….

The only alternative would be purchase Russian Su-57 fighter.

Does this alternative exist or is it pie in the sky.

I doubt if EU will agree to supply EJ-200. The M-88-2 has lesser thrust. USA will not want us to buy Su-57. It cannot offer us F-35. So it may give us F414 engine but with repeated delays perhaps, which will impact AMCA, TEDBF, MWF
And even if we get F414, i see HMRCA tenders coming & the only option is Su-57 among 5gen.

 

[BON PLAN]

If any amount of gentle and diplomatic persuasion to US does not get us the engine supply; do we have an alternative….

The only alternative would be purchase Russian Su-57 fighter.

Does this alternative exist or is it pie in the sky.

Or use russian engines. AL31, AL41.
Or accept the Safran (or R1R) offer to developp a 12T engine.

India had such proposals for yearSSSS. Time is spending, and the lead time to create a new engine was, is and will remain 10 years more or less. so 2034 at best. tic toc, tic toc....

 

[BON PLAN]

I doubt if EU will agree to supply EJ-200. The M-88-2 has lesser thrust. USA will not want us to buy Su-57. It cannot offer us F-35. So it may give us F414 engine but with repeated delays perhaps, which will impact AMCA, TEDBF, MWF
And even if we get F414, i see HMRCA tenders coming & the only option is Su-57 among 5gen.

the 9T M88-3 already fly. It is not industrialized, but only a couple of years problem once an agreement inked.
But I think you need more powerfull engines.....

 

[Hari Sud]

Alternative to GE delay is that Biden gone and Trump elected as president. Then focus on China will increase and that fight in Ukraine will go away. Once these political changes happen then GE will accelerate the supply. In any case delay will happen. It is neither DRDO or HAL or India’s fault. It is US/Biden politicking.

In reply, India to always work on two alternatives.

 

[Bigshot]

Nine years after development of South Korea’s KF-21 Boramae began, the government has signed a deal with Korea Aerospace Industries for the production of 20 fighter jets.

South Korea orders first batch of KF-21 fighters

The order comes as the manufacturer reports the jet's development is currently 80% complete.

www.defensenews.com

 

[Corvus Splendens]

If any amount of gentle and diplomatic persuasion to US does not get us the engine supply; do we have an alternative….

The only alternative would be purchase Russian Su-57 fighter.

Does this alternative exist or is it pie in the sky.

It's always on the card if Americans keep on delaying. Americans think they can squeeze as hard as they want for the F-414. The coup next door, and plenty of other diplomatic sabotages globally. They haven't even supplied the engines for the LSP Mk2s, leading HAL to ponder using the F404 for the initial batch if the Americans don't deliver in time. Trying to be friends with Americans is a lost cause. And we have tried as hard as we can for 10 years. But Americans want us to compromise our position and toe their foreign policy agendas. These scumbags were never going to be reliable partners for defense. And shame on GoI (both UPA and NDA) for not signing a blank check to GTRE for engine development. AMCA is the least of our concerns right now when even the Mk2 Tejas can get delayed by an additional 1-2 years because Americans are busy playing civilization in our back yard. GoI should've considered AL-41 licensed production 5 years back. The Su-30 upgrade package would've gotten a boost as well. The Su-57 MKI will come, thanks to Americans.

 

[Illusive]

Nine years after development of South Korea’s KF-21 Boramae began, the government has signed a deal with Korea Aerospace Industries for the production of 20 fighter jets.

South Korea orders first batch of KF-21 fighters

The order comes as the manufacturer reports the jet's development is currently 80% complete.

www.defensenews.com

View attachment 7409

So the client state of US which in theory is supposed to dependent on US and easy for them to scuttle any indigenous programmes they have to favor US interests has ordered its own fighters within a particular timeline and took us a decade even to finalize a design which have bigger adversaries and more urgent needs and believes in the idea of a "finished product" while others have figured out to keep order and keep improving them over time in batches.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

SHAPE OF AIRCRAFT, CHANGE IN ORIENTATION, AREAS OF APPLICATION OF RAM

In war time, Fighter jets might plan a sortie waypoints as per fixed assets like airbases, SAMs, terrain, etc. So the jet can maintain flight at certain altitude & heading to have minimum RCS towards certain areas.


But the dynamic assets like moving ground SAMs, AWACS, enemy fighter jets can force to tactically alter the plan, waypoints & maneuver in roll, pitch, yaw axis which increases RCS towards certain angles.


The 5gen jets still use rudders but canted at angle matching the fuselage side wall. from the diagrams above, on rolling & banking, the surface area at that angle increases a lot for few seconds. The entire body is reflecting some RF energy.
This may compel to apply RAM on entire ventral/bottom side.

Earlier in capitalist country like USA, private companies developed their version of RAS & RAM whose quality would differ & cost of application & maintenance would be very high. Special machines would be needed to wrap the jet with RAM tapes, attach RAm panels, or paint the RAM.
Today multiple nations have developed their own RAS, RAM with easier application & reduced cost.

But bcoz of nature of RF radiation is not simple, & ultimately a fighter jet has to do so much maneuvering, sometimes to evade enemy jets & missiles, that RAM may have to be applied almost everywhere. So people usually prioritise only front RCS but side, top, back RCS now would become equal priority.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

I doubt if EU will agree to supply EJ-200. The M-88-2 has lesser thrust. USA will not want us to buy Su-57. It cannot offer us F-35. So it may give us F414 engine but with repeated delays perhaps, which will impact AMCA, TEDBF, MWF
And even if we get F414, i see HMRCA tenders coming & the only option is Su-57 among 5gen.

i heard M 88 engines fourth version hv/will hv 95-105 KN thurst....AMCA will be medium weight fighter, near F35 size nd weight. F35 is using 194 KN engine, than why cant two 95 KN versions of M88 engine with atleast 190 KN thurst is enough for AMCA??? we r planning to make AMCA mark 1 with two GE F414 engine with 98 KN thurst (total 196 KN engine).

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Nine years after development of South Korea’s KF-21 Boramae began, the government has signed a deal with Korea Aerospace Industries for the production of 20 fighter jets.

South Korea orders first batch of KF-21 fighters

The order comes as the manufacturer reports the jet's development is currently 80% complete.

www.defensenews.com

View attachment 7409

well unlike other countries, our first priority is to replace our legacy (3.5 to 4 genration mig, jaguar nd mirage) nd sufficient amount of 4-4.5 genration fighters in our airforce. so we hv atleast minimum 35 squads. for this requirement they hv already tejas mark 1, 1a nd mark 2 in service nd development. thats why they r not in hurry for 5 genration fighters development. thats our second priority. our first priority is still many years away for completion.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

i heard M 88 engines fourth version hv/will hv 95-105 KN thurst....AMCA will be medium weight fighter, near F35 size nd weight. F35 is using 194 KN engine, than why cant two 95 KN versions of M88 engine with atleast 190 KN thurst is enough for AMCA??? we r planning to make AMCA mark 1 with two GE F414 engine with 98 KN thurst (total 196 KN engine).

M-88-4 will work for AMCA MK1 & we can consider it to avoid arm-twisting by USA. But it should be available on time.
Another concern is if the foreign engine doesn't allow TVC modification then all MK1 squads will be at risk to loose in dogfight against TVC adversaries till whenever a domestic or JV TVC engine is available.

 

[daya]

Government should make an arrangement for developing engine with any agency of the world with full technology transfer irrespective of money involved.