AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Spitfire IX]

(from Wiki)

Accumulated dev cost
LCA up to 2020 - US$1.3 billion / ₹9,063.96 crore
Kaveri up to 2023? - US$290 million / ₹2,032 crore
Additional development up to 2023? - US$160 million / ₹1,202 crore

I am astonished. GOI should forget about developing a fighter MIC. Funding is radically inadequate.

 

[Azaad]

(from Wiki)

Accumulated dev cost
LCA up to 2020 - US$1.3 billion / ₹9,063.96 crore
Kaveri up to 2023? - US$290 million / ₹2,032 crore
Additional development up to 2023? - US$160 million / ₹1,202 crore

I am astonished. GOI should forget about developing a fighter MIC. Funding is radically inadequate.

Right & in that generous budget which amounts to less than 2 billion USD India's managed to build a 4.5 Gen FA in the LCA Mk-1 / Mk-1a , a half decent TF with multiple applications from obviously the aerospace sector to Naval applications to possibly , if we explore it further , in train locomotives , but most importantly it has built up the entire aerospace eco system in India apart from kick starting projects like the LCA Mk-2 / AMCA / TEDBF / UCAV - Ghatak besides serving as the foundational program , with all this achieved in that golden budget figure mentioned above & in less than 4 decades.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Right & in that generous budget which amounts to less than 2 billion USD India's managed to build a 4.5 Gen FA in the LCA Mk-1 / Mk-1a , a half decent TF with multiple applications from obviously the aerospace sector to Naval applications to possibly , if we explore it further , in train locomotives , but most importantly it has built up the entire aerospace eco system in India apart from kick starting projects like the LCA Mk-2 / AMCA / TEDBF / UCAV - Ghatak besides serving as the foundational program , with all this achieved in that golden budget figure mentioned above & in less than 4 decades.

Indeed. Just for comparison, each year RR aero engines invests around $1 billion in R&D - about half as much money as India's entire investment in LCA+Kaveri over nearly 40 years!

RR publicity video about Trent engine enhancement programme


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tru3gdQAuvo

 

[FalconSlayers]

Possible AMCA EOTS sapphire dome!

Spoiler: Source

View: https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1841083028371882052

 

[SlayingHell]

Possible AMCA EOTS sapphire dome!

View attachment 10875

Spoiler: Source

View: https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1841083028371882052

What's happening with AMCA? Is it still in design phase with finishing touches? Is the design phase over and are preparing to place orders for sub-components? Or the sub-components orders already placed and preparing for Assembly? Or Has assembly started already?

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1841126779425264041
possible AMCA EOTS from a company called Optics and Allied Engineering Pvt. Ltd. (according to Alpha Defence these guys were most probably T2 in the DcPP tender)

 

[Spitfire IX]

I watched today a story about how the Su-57 engine could have been used to develop a 120kN engine for use in AMCA. I presume that this is another nonsense story from Indian Defence Updates and the 'experts' it claims to source.

Any concrete progress on SAFRAN developing an engine? I wonder when India will have to accept whatever SAFRAN is prepared to offer or decide to walk away, abandon a mach 2, supercruising Mk2 and content itself with an AMCA with a 98kN engine with no certainty of supply.

 

[SlayingHell]

I watched today a story about how the Su-57 engine could have been used to develop a 120kN engine for use in AMCA. I presume that this is another nonsense story from Indian Defence Updates and the 'experts' it claims to source.

Any concrete progress on SAFRAN developing an engine? I wonder when India will have to accept whatever SAFRAN is prepared to offer or decide to walk away, abandon a mach 2, supercruising Mk2 and content itself with an AMCA with a 98kN engine with no certainty of supply.

It's the IAF mentality at play here. Once they get a taste of Western engine reliability, going back to Russian stuff feels like a downgrade. Plus, the AMCA has always been envisioned as a 25-ton Medium Weight Fighter. If we use the AL-31F, the aircraft would need to be bulked up because the engine’s size and diameter are bigger than the F-414. As for the SAFRAN offer, it could go two ways—just look at the HAL-Safran joint venture for Shakti engines. Recently, SAFRAN released the secrets of Shakti’s hot core once they realized HAL was closing in with the HTSE-1200. They knew if they held back, they’d lose out on royalties once HTSE-1200 became operational. A similar approach might happen with the AMCA.

France or Safran who initially said yes for complete ToT could renege later, citing “complexities” and only giving partial IP rights, manufacturing the hot section themselves while we handle the cold section. The real path forward is to go all-in on the Kaveri engine. Once France sees Kaveri close to success, they’ll be forced to part with their crown jewel. Afterall Money from Royalties is better than No Money.

 

[Spitfire IX]

It's the IAF mentality at play here. Once they get a taste of Western engine reliability, going back to Russian stuff feels like a downgrade. Plus, the AMCA has always been envisioned as a 25-ton Medium Weight Fighter. If we use the AL-31F, the aircraft would need to be bulked up because the engine’s size and diameter are bigger than the F-414. As for the SAFRAN offer, it could go two ways—just look at the HAL-Safran joint venture for Shakti engines. Recently, SAFRAN released the secrets of Shakti’s hot core once they realized HAL was closing in with the HTSE-1200. They knew if they held back, they’d lose out on royalties once HTSE-1200 became operational. A similar approach might happen with the AMCA.

France or Safran who initially said yes for complete ToT could renege later, citing “complexities” and only giving partial IP rights, manufacturing the hot section themselves while we handle the cold section. The real path forward is to go all-in on the Kaveri engine. Once France sees Kaveri close to success, they’ll be forced to part with their crown jewel. Afterall Money from Royalties is better than No Money.

'It's the IAF mentality at play here. Once they get a taste of Western engine reliability, going back to Russian stuff feels like a downgrade.'

It is a downgrade.

'Recently, SAFRAN released the secrets of Shakti’s hot core once they realized HAL was closing in with the HTSE-1200. They knew if they held back, they’d lose out on royalties once HTSE-1200 became operational. A similar approach might happen with the AMCA.'

I have to disagree with you - HAL's technology on the HTSE-1200 may be advanced. India's technology in low by-pass turbo engines is many years behind that of SAFRAN's , nowhere near what is required to build a 110kN engine to power AMCA.

'The real path forward is to go all-in on the Kaveri engine.'

The real path has been there for 30 years. GOI chose not to go down it at a cost of billions of dollars. It still has not chosen to go down it. Throwing $50 million or $100 million or even $250 million at Kaveri each year from now on may result in a working engine for LCA (80kN). Perhaps SAFRAN might be interested in supplying core technology for royalties. Perhaps not.

80kN is insufficient for Tejas Mk2. To get nearly 100kN out of an F404-sized engine must demand a much higher level of technology than that in Kaveri. Lots of money and lots of time to get there from an F404ish level Kaveri.

The idea that India can develop a useable 110kN+ engine for AMCA is fanciful. The engine is needed for an aircraft to be delivered in 10 years, not 20 or 30.

 

[Anants]

'It's the IAF mentality at play here. Once they get a taste of Western engine reliability, going back to Russian stuff feels like a downgrade.'

It is a downgrade.

'Recently, SAFRAN released the secrets of Shakti’s hot core once they realized HAL was closing in with the HTSE-1200. They knew if they held back, they’d lose out on royalties once HTSE-1200 became operational. A similar approach might happen with the AMCA.'

I have to disagree with you - HAL's technology on the HTSE-1200 may be advanced. India's technology in low by-pass turbo engines is many years behind that of SAFRAN's , nowhere near what is required to build a 110kN engine to power AMCA.

'The real path forward is to go all-in on the Kaveri engine.'

The real path has been there for 30 years. GOI chose not to go down it at a cost of billions of dollars. It still has not chosen to go down it. Throwing $50 million or $100 million or even $250 million at Kaveri each year from now on may result in a working engine for LCA (80kN). Perhaps SAFRAN might be interested in supplying core technology for royalties. Perhaps not.

80kN is insufficient for Tejas Mk2. To get nearly 100kN out of an F404-sized engine must demand a much higher level of technology than that in Kaveri. Lots of money and lots of time to get there from an F404ish level Kaveri.

The idea that India can develop a useable 110kN+ engine for AMCA is fanciful. The engine is needed for an aircraft to be delivered in 10 years, not 20 or 30.

Actually true words. India needs to spend much more money on men & materials. But jet engine is not a national mission as of yet. Only once India declares it to be National Mission: then you really would see GOI opening its purse and patience little more than adequate.

However right now GOI is focused on using limited money on Social Justice Subsidies, Infra building and and then some on PLI to incentivize Semi conductors fabs and other areas which can create more KB industry job opportunities and prop up new more ancillary industries.

Getting Jet Engine right - is no where a high priority as of now compared to above.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

What's happening with AMCA? Is it still in design phase with finishing touches?

Yes finishing touches, last update was it's mtow has been increased to 27tons. & Its wing loading was improved.

Is the design phase over and are preparing to place orders for sub-components?

Tenders are not released for realisation. It's design is in final phase only some tweeks going on.

Or the sub-components orders already placed and preparing for Assembly? Or Has assembly started already?

No. Atleast nothing in public.
But subcomponents like bulkhead, serrated panels are fabricated already or undergoing for testing purpose & prototype.

 

[SlayingHell]

Yes finishing touches, last update was it's mtow has been increased to 27tons. & Its wing loading was improved.

Tenders are not released for realisation. It's design is in final phase only some tweeks going on.

No. Atleast nothing in public.
But subcomponents like bulkhead, serrated panels are fabricated already or undergoing for testing purpose & prototype.

Can first flight be expected in 2027 atleast ?

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

Can first flight be expected in 2027 atleast ?

Never bruh. By end of 2027 prototype will roll out and we will see its taxi trials ff in 2028. As per Krishna rajendra project director of AMCA.
They said first prototype will roll out in 4½yrs.

I think they intentionally gave this time line.
Many subcomponents are under fabrication. I think in 3 yrs first prototype should roll out and ffin 2027. This seems ideal. They must have considered the delay to do future face saving if delays happen.
Anyways take my words with bag of salt.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Actually true words. India needs to spend much more money on men & materials. But jet engine is not a national mission as of yet. Only once India declares it to be National Mission: then you really would see GOI opening its purse and patience little more than adequate.

However right now GOI is focused on using limited money on Social Justice Subsidies, Infra building and and then some on PLI to incentivize Semi conductors fabs and other areas which can create more KB industry job opportunities and prop up new more ancillary industries.

Getting Jet Engine right - is no where a high priority as of now compared to above.

You disappoint me. It sounds like GOI has never taken Kaveri seriously. It sounds like it has just been a PR exercise to keep the people feeling positive and instil pride in Indian technology. Unfortunately you can't power an aircraft on PR, pride and positive feelings.

 

[SlayingHell]

You disappoint me. It sounds like GOI has never taken Kaveri seriously. It sounds like it has just been a PR exercise to keep the people feeling positive and instil pride in Indian technology. Unfortunately you can't power an aircraft on PR, pride and positive feelings.

They never took seriously about Tactical Assets. You know we punch above our weights in all Necessary-Non Importable-Strategic assets like Nuclear Warheads, MIRV, ICBMs, Vertically Integrated Satellite Industry, 10-Ton LEO Medium Lift Launch Vehicle, SSBN are all realized and are in their next versions. Government-Bureaucrats-Politicians everyone knows that these are important for Strategic Needs. Jet Engine is rather Tactical need, it will win you battles but not End Game Wars. Infact Jet Engine is the only thing USA is holding India by balls in Military Aspects along with EUV Machines in Civilian Aspects.

 

[Anants]

You disappoint me. It sounds like GOI has never taken Kaveri seriously. It sounds like it has just been a PR exercise to keep the people feeling positive and instil pride in Indian technology. Unfortunately you can't power an aircraft on PR, pride and positive feelings.

Not exactly PR.

Men working in GTRE & MIDHANI(for Material Research) are the finest, highly qualified passionate people stymied by lacks of adequate funding and infrastructure. Infact they are readily absorbed by MNC's for the valuable research they have done and experience they bring in.

But what they are doing is slowly and steadily they are trying get handle of critical research areas - even under dire circumstances. Eventually India shall be investing heavily into this. Because this is very slow and but steady approach - India shall not have to start from scratch again - once its makes it National Mission. You have to understand - Till 11 years back - our economy was being counted among fragile 5. India needs to spend a lot in many things. Its just that Govt think going gung ho into Jet Engines can wait - and for the time being they keep upticking budget little by little.

 

[karn]

Not exactly PR.

Men working in GTRE & MIDHANI(for Material Research) are the finest, highly qualified passionate people stymied by lacks of adequate funding and infrastructure. Infact they are readily absorbed by MNC's for the valuable research they have done and experience they bring in.

But what they are doing is slowly and steadily they are trying get handle of critical research areas - even under dire circumstances. Eventually India shall be investing heavily into this. Because this is very slow and but steady approach - India shall not have to start from scratch again - once its makes it National Mission. You have to understand - Till 11 years back - our economy was being counted among fragile 5. India needs to spend a lot in many things. Its just that Govt think going gung ho into Jet Engines can wait - and for the time being they keep upticking budget little by little.

Can you tell me where you heard that those working in GTRE are very passionate . I know someone who has worked with them and his assessment was the exact opposite.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

All materials have been already developed & proved for AMCA. i.e ram, metamaterials etc
- Girish S deodhare, dir. gen Ada

View: https://youtu.be/dzNQYtEhrec?feature=shared

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

Big
IIT kanpur has developed transparent radar wave absorbing metamaterials named pvb & aptes/pvb. Potentially to be used in AMCA's canopy & eots outer cover & possibly in other programs too like tejas mk2 & tedbf.
The f35 uses similar modern solution instead of traditional indium tin oxide dopped canopy like in f22

Protective Layer for Microwave Metamaterial Absorbers

Globally acclaimed education & research in science, engineering, management & humanities.

www.iitk.ac.in

 

[Anants]

Can you tell me where you heard that those working in GTRE are very passionate . I know someone who has worked with them and his assessment was the exact opposite.

@karn even passionate people when work with Hands tied - get tired and frustrated at certain age.. When right conditions prevail - they tight their belt and again start working.

You know I had similar things from people who interned at ISRO - they drank tea or play cards mostly and only work when launch is near. Mind you this is something more than 20 years back. Cut to now - when ISRO became confident about their research and started getting more funding - dont you see more activity and output? Same thing shall happen with cutting edge research projects underway in DRDO.

Addendum: This is not just only true in Indian Govt space but also seen in Pvt companies both in India and outside. Research groups do work - but their output rate cannot compared with people who are working on regular development projects. Sipping Coffee, playing Sim Games / Pool / TT /football or Cricket along with work is not uncommon. But when work has to be done - they do and try to deliver.