AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Spitfire IX]

... if we have more Tejas Mk2 and Rafale India can handle chinese stealths on both sides … AMCA will definitely help but should not be the top priority specially when USA is making sure its delayed enough so India comes begging for F-35

Is the US government holding up an agreement on licence production of F414 in India? Or is it that India is late in agreeing a contract? Looking at India's record of being late in almost everything associated with its fighter programmes (what has ever adhered to schedule?), my guess is that this is just another example of India being late.

What about arranging an engine for AMCA Mk2? Is the US somehow responsible for India not having negotiated a deal with SAFRAN to develop a 110kN+ engine?

 

[Spacemarine]

Is the US government holding up an agreement on licence production of F414 in India? Or is it that India is late in agreeing a contract? Looking at India's record of being late in almost everything associated with its fighter programmes (what has ever adhered to schedule?), my guess is that this is just another example of India being late.

What about arranging an engine for AMCA Mk2? Is the US somehow responsible for India not having negotiated a deal with SAFRAN to develop a 110kN+ engine?

Engine supply issue is not the main one, its the curbs on advanced machining tools sourcing from EU and Japan that is proving to be one of the main delays, either India can move forward with lower level of machining tools not able to provide required stealth on prototypes and in future source the advance machining tools for same.

As per GE the delays in 404 is because of supply chain issues, 414 production will take its sweet time.

AMCA MK2 indigenous engine will never be materialised if India depends on SAFRAN or any other foreigners partners.
India needs to invest billions to build capability inside India before starting with engines better first start with machining tools

 

[jaijaganath]

So, are we all in deep trouble?

Yes
Fucking yes
We are in trouble since 2000
And no one is neither taking the responsibility of this mess nor anyone is trying to mitigate it
And it's getting worse day by day
Just pray to lord that no war is forced upon us otherwise all the services will face the wrath due to weak airforce

 

[Spacemarine]

Yes
Fucking yes
We are in trouble since 2000
And no one is neither taking the responsibility of this mess nor anyone is trying to mitigate it
And it's getting worse day by day
Just pray to lord that no war is forced upon us otherwise all the services will face the wrath due to weak airforce

Hindus r in trouble from past 2000 years we are getting squeezed more and more .. inch by inch from afganistan to now haryana from vietnam indoneshia to now kolkata.. we r getting fcked but still we want sickularism and sabka bakwas we dhindus r collectively retarded

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Hindus r in trouble from past 2000 years we are getting squeezed more and more .. inch by inch from afganistan to now haryana from vietnam indoneshia to now kolkata.. we r getting fcked but still we want sickularism and sabka bakwas we dhindus r collectively retarded

Hindus have been in trouble simply becuse hindus have not adapted to the new rules of war ever since the rules turned against us, aka ever since heavy cavalry became a thing ( around the fall of the Gupta empire itself). Ever since then, we've struggled because one of our major achillees heel has been forgetting chanakya's works in the Huna aftermath and losing strategic vision.
India lacks the same strategic vision today to become a hard power, because there is not a SINGLE hard power in history of the planet or today, that fights with foreign made equipment for the most part or its most important assets.
We are making the same mistake the marathas are making, we can be rich for decades and buy western maal but over time, when CRUNCHTIME comes, us not making our own maal will kill us.

 

[Spacemarine]

Hindus have been in trouble simply becuse hindus have not adapted to the new rules of war ever since the rules turned against us, aka ever since heavy cavalry became a thing ( around the fall of the Gupta empire itself). Ever since then, we've struggled because one of our major achillees heel has been forgetting chanakya's works in the Huna aftermath and losing strategic vision.
India lacks the same strategic vision today to become a hard power, because there is not a SINGLE hard power in history of the planet or today, that fights with foreign made equipment for the most part or its most important assets.
We are making the same mistake the marathas are making, we can be rich for decades and buy western maal but over time, when CRUNCHTIME comes, us not making our own maal will kill us.

More than military fck ups the collective psyche of dhindus is retarded no fckin shatrubodh none at all

 

[daya]

Hindus r in trouble from past 2000 years we are getting squeezed more and more .. inch by inch from afganistan to now haryana from vietnam indoneshia to now kolkata.. we r getting fcked but still we want sickularism and sabka bakwas we dhindus r collectively retarded

Precisely, you see that a tiny Bangladesh have f cked up .... Hindus are being advised not to wear their religious signs and dresses.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Engine supply issue is not the main one, its the curbs on advanced machining tools sourcing from EU and Japan that is proving to be one of the main delays, either India can move forward with lower level of machining tools not able to provide required stealth on prototypes and in future source the advance machining tools for same.

As per GE the delays in 404 is because of supply chain issues, 414 production will take its sweet time.

AMCA MK2 indigenous engine will never be materialised if India depends on SAFRAN or any other foreigners partners.
India needs to invest billions to build capability inside India before starting with engines better first start with machining tools

I don't know about supplies of advanced machining tools.

Do governments forbid the producers of these tools to offer them to India?
Do the producers of these tools refuse to offer them to India? If so, why?
Does India want to pay the producers of these tools less than their lowest price? If so, why?

Sure, it would be good for India to its make its own fighters without needing any outside help, tools or materials. When would it be able to make AMCA on that basis? 2040/2050/2060 or later still?

India set out to start making its own fighters 40 years ago. It has had all that time to invest in building the technologies required but has refused to do that. It involves big investments. India has refused to make big investments. India cannot make its own fighters. Anyone surprised?

make tools of the highest grade found elsewhere. Before starting with engines?

 

[Spacemarine]

I don't know about supplies of advanced machining tools.

Do governments forbid the producers of these tools to offer them to India?
Do the producers of these tools refuse to offer them to India? If so, why?
Does India want to pay the producers of these tools less than their lowest price? If so, why?

Sure, it would be good for India to its make its own fighters without needing any outside help, tools or materials. When would it be able to make AMCA on that basis? 2040/2050/2060 or later still?

India set out to start making its own fighters 40 years ago. It has had all that time to invest in building the technologies required but has refused to do that. It involves big investments. India has refused to make big investments. India cannot make its own fighters. Anyone surprised?

make tools of the highest grade found elsewhere. Before starting with engines?

Creating a modern stealth airframe requires CNC routers of extremely low thermal impact with micron level precision which also means these machines need to be additive,

India can source modern core components for CNC machines these can be used in turbine blades but for creating an airframe that can provide best radar evading airframe there is basically a shadow ban on those kind of machining tools simply we cant source from USA.

Indian Govt specifically this one will happily spend billions to master these if this can be achieved with in 5 or even a decade but this is simply not possible for India we neither have metallurgy, neither skill sets, neither micro electronics base, neither regression data, neither amount of money.

Simply impossible to achieve given the timeline.

India Govt if started this 50 years ago may be we would have achieved the same the US is doing,
but in simple terms

India is 50 years behind US may be 20 years behind china only way is move forward with what we can source a half decent stealth airframe is still better than Rafale on same time keep encouraging Indian industry to get knowhow to manufacture help them strategically protect the winners may be iteratively India can achieve in AMCA by 2040s what USA achieved in 2000s with F-22

 

[realsumo]

Creating a modern stealth airframe requires CNC routers of extremely low thermal impact with micron level precision which also means these machines need to be additive,

India can source modern core components for CNC machines these can be used in turbine blades but for creating an airframe that can provide best radar evading airframe there is basically a shadow ban on those kind of machining tools simply we cant source from USA.

Indian Govt specifically this one will happily spend billions to master these if this can be achieved with in 5 or even a decade but this is simply not possible for India we neither have metallurgy, neither skill sets, neither micro electronics base, neither regression data, neither amount of money.

Simply impossible to achieve given the timeline.

India Govt if started this 50 years ago may be we would have achieved the same the US is doing,
but in simple terms

India is 50 years behind US may be 20 years behind china only way is move forward with what we can source a half decent stealth airframe is still better than Rafale on same time keep encouraging Indian industry to get knowhow to manufacture help them strategically protect the winners may be iteratively India can achieve in AMCA by 2040s what USA achieved in 2000s with F-22

How is china creating 5th gen then? Did they start working on those 50 years ago? Let alone china, even turkey is manufacturing it? Aren't they shadow banned or do they have the technology?

 

[Spacemarine]

How is china creating 5th gen then? Did they start working on those 50 years ago? Let alone china, even turkey is manufacturing it? Aren't they shadow banned or do they have the technology?

They are part of supply chains.. Turkey coz NATO.. China coz west has made sure everything is made in China..

Turkey was part of F-35 with good deal
Of manufacturing and still F-35 components are being supplied it seems …

 

[Ayan Barat]

Creating a modern stealth airframe requires CNC routers of extremely low thermal impact with micron level precision which also means these machines need to be additive,

India can source modern core components for CNC machines these can be used in turbine blades but for creating an airframe that can provide best radar evading airframe there is basically a shadow ban on those kind of machining tools simply we cant source from USA.

Indian Govt specifically this one will happily spend billions to master these if this can be achieved with in 5 or even a decade but this is simply not possible for India we neither have metallurgy, neither skill sets, neither micro electronics base, neither regression data, neither amount of money.

Simply impossible to achieve given the timeline.

India Govt if started this 50 years ago may be we would have achieved the same the US is doing,
but in simple terms

India is 50 years behind US may be 20 years behind china only way is move forward with what we can source a half decent stealth airframe is still better than Rafale on same time keep encouraging Indian industry to get knowhow to manufacture help them strategically protect the winners may be iteratively India can achieve in AMCA by 2040s what USA achieved in 2000s with F-22

I'm noticing you since yesterday, why are you so obsessed with CNCs and metals my Man!

You talked so much about what we need to make stealth but there was no mention of carbon composite tech, RAM coating, especially the ferrite ones, full sized anechoic chambers, huge autoclaves, laser cutting, electron beam welding, extremely potent CFD softwares, custom made FEA algorithms to manage RCS and aerodynamics, nickel based superalloys, ceramic matrix composite, radars with extreme level of LPI, fabs to make micro-bolometers for all the EOs, robotic assembly system, non-destructive testing and God knows what else.

CNCs and metals are perhaps the easiest of challenges we have to overcome.

Or are you planning to make a monolithic plane from a single block of 4340 steel my Guy!?

 

[Spacemarine]

I'm noticing you since yesterday, why are you so obsessed with CNCs and metals my Man!

You talked so much about what we need to make stealth but there was no mention of carbon composite tech, RAM coating, especially the ferrite ones, full sized anechoic chambers, huge autoclaves, laser cutting, electron beam welding, extremely potent CFD softwares, custom made FEA algorithms to manage RCS and aerodynamics, nickel based superalloys, ceramic matrix composite, radars with extreme level of LPI, fabs to make micro-bolometers for all the EOs, robotic assembly system, non-destructive testing and God knows what else.

CNCs and metals are perhaps the easiest of challenges we have to overcome.

Or are you planning to make a monolithic plane from a single block of 4340 steel my Guy!?

Stealth airframe is all about micro angles… if we dont have the most precise machining tools with almost negligible thermal back ..

We will never be able to match what USA did in even 90s with F-22 prototypes

 

[realsumo]

They are part of supply chains.. Turkey coz NATO.. China coz west has made sure everything is made in China..

Turkey was part of F-35 with good deal
Of manufacturing and still F-35 components are being supplied it seems …

I mean they have to start somewhere. Even if mastering some technology, requires half a century. Atleast, they should start working on it now, to even hope to achieve something.
Do you have any info regarding this?
Was any initiative taken by the government with regards to this?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Stealth airframe is all about micro angles… if we dont have the most precise machining tools with almost negligible thermal back ..

We will never be able to match what USA did in even 90s with F-22 prototypes

Stealth planes are usually optimised against X, Ku, K and Ka band radars; wavelengths ranging from 2.5 to 1cm. There's absolutely nothing "micro angle" in these.

You're not making a gun where you need a tolerance of ±0.001mm to function properly.

Stop this unnecessary DhotiShivering for perhaps the least important of the required tech that we pretty much already have.

 

[Spacemarine]

Stealth planes are usually optimised against X, Ku, K and Ka band radars; wavelengths ranging from 2.5 to 1cm. There's absolutely nothing "micro angle" in these.

You're not making a gun where you need a tolerance of ±0.001mm to function properly.

Stop this unnecessary DhotiShivering for perhaps the least important of the required tech that we pretty much already have.

haha what an ignorant post …

Its the fundamental rest like thermal signature, coatings and passive stealth is secondary ..

also no dhoti shivering its the truth, may be India will purchase some big ticket items from Trump
Admin to get the core components to make best in class stealth who knows

 

[GaudaNaresh]

How is china creating 5th gen then? Did they start working on those 50 years ago? Let alone china, even turkey is manufacturing it? Aren't they shadow banned or do they have the technology?

Um, China bought a shit ton of german high end machining tools companies in the economic downturn of 2007/2008. By 2020 or so, China moved all those machining tools back to China and shut down their German operations.
China planned ahead. As is their forte.

 

[realsumo]

China planned ahead. As is their forte

I completely agree with this. And I think it's due to the political structure. What's china's endgoal? Atleast their Ambition is of world hagemony. And, there are internal party politics, but outwardly there don't have issues. (Edit: I mean atleast it doesn't look like outsiders can Influence the internal CCP politics).
India can't plan ahead for 10-15 years. Most of the planning is short term of 3-5 years. Afterall what's the endgoal? To remain in power after 5 years of term.
How to accomplish this?
1. Either perform well in the central or states where they have governments.
2. Sabotage the opposition even if it means going against National interests. Afterall, if you cannot perform well, make sure that the opposition does worse, or atleast create that perception.
Most of our political parties prefer to do the second option and such is the woe of our democracy.

I mean congress and rjd critised the government for nuclear tests in 1998. (Pokhran- II). It still baffles me.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

@Ayan Barat , @Spacemarine
Don't fight, you guys seem to have good knowledge on separate things. Everybody cannot now everything. I know about CNC machines but i learned some new aspects & terms about it.
Watching international documentaries in different languages on aircrafts, automobiles, anything mechanical, precision is very important. The videos on ATF, JSF, Rafale, Gripen, EF-2000, etc show that after the CAD, CFD, RCS design optimizations have happened, the assembly lines have to fit things perfectly.
So all the following things mentioned matter at their place:

carbon composite tech, RAM coating, especially the ferrite ones, full sized anechoic chambers, huge autoclaves, laser cutting, electron beam welding, extremely potent CFD softwares, custom made FEA algorithms to manage RCS and aerodynamics, nickel based superalloys, ceramic matrix composite, radars with extreme level of LPI, fabs to make micro-bolometers for all the EOs, robotic assembly system, non-destructive testing

So whichever member knows what DRDO/NAL/ADA or private firms are doing on these things, can share it in a dedicated thread.
I'm part of many forums & noticing that everything is not shared on every forum. So i suggest the serious/regular enthusiasts to be part of multiple forums if they have time.
Someone can make a table like following:
| tech aspect | DoD/Pvt. entity | state of progress | info link |
The table can be updated & re-shared by anybody.

 

[Ayan Barat]

@Ayan Barat
Don't fight, you guys seem to have good knowledge on separate things.

Ahhh thanks Mate and my expertise is more in brainrot shitposting.
Anyways just wanna end this stupid debate with two points before I move on to my usual yapping.

• Our condition in high-end CNCs is nothing like what we've in say chip building or genetics research. Up until a certain time there was indeed huge dependency on foreign tech but sadly that certain time was more than one two decades ago. We now have premium Haas made CNCs machines in even the INSAS churning OFBs. Indian CNC manufactures like Jyoti are exporting machines to countries like Canada and USA. All the foreign research centres that we utilise for R&D are out of the influence of USA or EU. With each passing month a new start-up pops here that has done something way more important like axial-flux motors or actuators but sadly they just go unnoticed as no one cares about start-ups here in India if they're not into e-com or delivery.
The current scenario is in absolutely no way as dire as it's being portrayed.

• Are CNC machine sales restricted by big countries like USA or EU? Absolutely yes, but like everything there's caveat in this too. The sales is restricted in just two types of machines.
> Extremely precise 5-axis machines that can work on workpieces as big as rooms. The reason being, these machines are the only thing that can be used to make the propeller of a modern ultra-quite submarines. You want absolute level of tolerance while machining a propeller as even a single imperfection can cause enough noise on SONARs to get to detected.
There are just handful of these machines and all are GPS enabled, continuosly tracked systems.
> Ultra precise 5-axis CNC machines, especially lathes that can work on moderate sized workpieces.
These are used for making Zippe-Type gas centrifuges required for enrichment. I don't think I need to elaborate further on why these are regulated.

Other than these nothing is restricted. Infact you can buy most of the parts from AliExpress.