AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bleh]

We are doing exactly that, stealth airframe +tejas mk2 tech.

and by doing that the timeline for first flight planned for 2028.

The problem is not avionics tech.
But the airframe itself.
We are going solid single peace bulk head, for that we meed 50k+ton forging press.
So we are currently creating that press.
After which that press will create the bulkhead.

Not quite I'd say.

Even if MWF is 4 times stealthier than LCA it's still a 4th gen that'll carry things externally.
While we're aspiring something that'll need us to induct several dozen jets every year. Continue within on the bulkhead but while we're at it "downgrade" the AMCA concept & make a prototype in similar manner to MWF & roll it out alongside MWF in FY26 only.
Start induction ASAP..

They'd claimed that mock-up is an actual jet, no?. Fit in two F414s & get it airbourne. Sure it'll use IRST instead of EOTS, but still be a stealthy fighter with IWB & probably better than all IAF jets at 2030. Definitely better option than Su-57.


Actual AMCA can follow when it does.

 

[randombully]

Not quite I'd say.

Even if MWF is 4 times stealthier than LCA it's still a 4th gen that'll carry things externally.
While we're aspiring something that'll need us to induct several dozen jets every year. Continue within on the bulkhead but while we're at it "downgrade" the AMCA concept & make a prototype in similar manner to MWF & roll it out alongside MWF in FY26 only.
Start induction ASAP..
View attachment 27469
They'd claimed that mock-up is an actual jet, no?. Fit in two F414s & get it airbourne. Sure it'll use IRST instead of EOTS, but still be a stealthy fighter with IWB & probably better than all IAF jets at 2030. Definitely better option than Su-57.


Actual AMCA can follow when it does.

Were doing exactly that for the initial testing of "prototypes", and doing that timeline is 2028 for first flight.
Why do think testing period is 8-9?


The mock up is not an actual jet, it's an enegeering model.
Meaning internally it's designed in a way actual fighter jet will be designed it has ducts, space of engine, radar, cockpit, landing gear, space for electronics etc.
A simple mockup just looks like a jet externally.
With that Said, it's material is nowhere the quality and standard for it to ever fly, unlike what alpha defense said.
Even the wings and tails are maid up to soft bendable materials.
Basically a mockup but with both external and internal layout like an actual jet.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Why do Indian airplane designers consistently go for smaller air intakes when you know that you need more air intake to get more power?

Interesting observation.

Do other OEM's design intakes with allowance for a greater mass of air intake in future enhancements of the aircraft?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Continuing the chain of posts for weapons in AMCA's IWB which is officially quoted 4.2m X 2.2m,
After observing the designs of all BVR-AAMs made globally, and intention of F-35 & J-35 to increase their IWB capacity to 6 AAMs, I had shown by diagrams that only 4 big-fin Astr-1/2 AAMs can fit in IWB but,
6 staggered Astr-2 short-fin AAMs (like AIM-120-D in F-22),
or 6 modified Astr-3 SFDR,
or 8 folding-fin Astr-2 AAMs can fit in (like Chinese PL-15).

I took the CAD of Astr-2 big-fin by artist "Akela freedom" & edited in Paint to match short-fin version made by artist "Kuntal Biswas" which is also identical to AIM-120-D. So the forward fixed fin has been shortened & shifted forward & rear fin leading edge more swept back, that's all, simple quick edit.

View attachment 25242

Now we can see the comparison more clear & precise, 4 & 6 big-fin AAMs vs 6 short-fin AAMs in the outine of official dimension of IWB. Unfortunately an updated CAD is not released yet by any artist or DoD.

View attachment 25249

I did this few weeks back but I waited for Aero-India, hoping they would officially increase the IWB capacity & showcase, but didn't happen. But this is not an up-hill task & can be done easily till IOC jet.

View attachment 25248
There is no separator wall in the IWB. 1 door panel slightly overlaps on the panel of other side door, means both doors have to open full to drop any weapon, exposing full IWB.
I hope this gets corrected in IOC jet.

So far we have seen multiple CADs & static models with slight differences.
Neither ADA nor the 3D artists release basic schematic diagrams, cross sections, configurations, etc. The ones available so far are low resolution & inadequate.



It is difficult to confirm how the inducted jet will look like & its capabilities.
So taking the most convincing CAD front view & superimposing the IWB dimension of 2.2m width & 0.75m depth, along with BVR-AAMs from TEDBF CAD, it seems 6x Astr-2 short-fin version with 178mm body diameter would fit in IWB easily with or w/o staggering.
SWB is also possible.
With 1.5 ton IWB capacity, 6x BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs = 6x154 + 2x88 = 1,100 Kg, 1.1/(12+6.5+1.1)=5.6% of STOW.
Wet T/STOW ratio = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / (12+6.5+1.1) = 1.02
With 50% fuel used & firing 4 BVR-AAMs, with 2 CCMs & 2 BVR-AAMs left, wet TWR = 2x98 KN / 9.8 / {12+3.25+(4x154 + 2x88)/1000} = 1.24

 

[Spitfire IX]

India Includes Russia in Negotiations for 5th-Gen AMCA Fighter Jet Engine, 177S Engine with 146kN Thrust Emerges as Potential Contender

India Includes Russia in Negotiations for 5th-Gen AMCA Fighter Jet Engine, 177S Engine with 146kN Thrust Emerges as Potential Contender

In a major development for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has opened the door for Russia to participate in negotiations regarding the engine for the indigenous fifth-generation fighter jet. This represents a change in strategy, as previous...

defence.in

In my view: ludicrous.

The option for a non-ludicrous engine for AMCA has been around for a decade or more. I suspect that India does not want it. If you actually want something you have not got, you will be prepared to pay to get it. I suspect that GOI is not prepared to pay to get what it wants, so does not really want it.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

India Includes Russia in Negotiations for 5th-Gen AMCA Fighter Jet Engine, 177S Engine with 146kN Thrust Emerges as Potential Contender

In a major development for India's Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has opened the door for Russia to participate in negotiations regarding the engine for the indigenous fifth-generation fighter jet. This represents a change in strategy, as previous...

defence.in

In my view: ludicrous.

The option for a non-ludicrous engine for AMCA has been around for a decade or more. I suspect that India does not want it. If you actually want something you have not got, you will be prepared to pay to get it. I suspect that GOI is not prepared to pay to get what it wants, so does not really want it.

> It is not original content. I feel sorry that Defence.in forum is very poorly organized. Rather than making categorized threads they make every post as a thread.
> The 177S engine is AL-31/41/51 size/weight class engine & their derivative. It was offered for Su-30MKI upgrade.
If used for AMCA then its airframe will get heavily altered like 50% re-designed airframe of rear half fuselage at least. I don't think then it'll be a medium class jet.
Also, every new future military engine should have front RF blocker, rear ceramic RF blocker, various types of cooling methods like blade cooling, liquid cooling for body, transpiration cooling for exhaust, etc.

 

[Spitfire IX]

> It is not original content. I feel sorry that Defence.in forum is very poorly organized. Rather than making categorized threads they make every post as a thread.
> The 177S engine is AL-31/41/51 size/weight class engine & their derivative. It was offered for Su-30MKI upgrade.
If used for AMCA then its airframe will get heavily altered like 50% re-designed airframe of rear half fuselage at least. I don't think then it'll be a medium class jet.
Also, every new future military engine should have front RF blocker, rear ceramic RF blocker, various types of cooling methods like blade cooling, liquid cooling for body, transpiration cooling for exhaust, etc.

Yes. To me the whole idea of considering redesigning AMCA to use a 150kN engine is a nonsensical waste of time and money.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Yes. To me the whole idea of considering redesigning AMCA to use a 150kN engine is a nonsensical waste of time and money.

It wouldn't be a redesign of AMCA but could be a stepping stone for new jets, something like F-18 A/C to F-18 E.
I've been saying that we should've use AL-31 for AHCA prototype. We threw that kind of opportunity in gutter while some nations used it & their jets are in service or prototype flying.
Now till we get a JV engine, 177S can be used for making prototypes of AMWF, ATEDBF & AHCA.
The requirements must come as per global tech level & not when Admirals & Air Marshals will wake up after decades considering only Pakistan. ADA must throw away linear approach of 1 jet at a time, MoD/CCS must aid in future oriented projetcs by expanding funding, work force, facilities, etc, or our nation will suffer & GoI/MoD/DoD will be collectively responsible for it.

 

[r8rdarklord]

Not quite I'd say.

Even if MWF is 4 times stealthier than LCA it's still a 4th gen that'll carry things externally.
While we're aspiring something that'll need us to induct several dozen jets every year. Continue within on the bulkhead but while we're at it "downgrade" the AMCA concept & make a prototype in similar manner to MWF & roll it out alongside MWF in FY26 only.
Start induction ASAP..
View attachment 27469
They'd claimed that mock-up is an actual jet, no?. Fit in two F414s & get it airbourne. Sure it'll use IRST instead of EOTS, but still be a stealthy fighter with IWB & probably better than all IAF jets at 2030. Definitely better option than Su-57.


Actual AMCA can follow when it does.

This is one of the smartest ideas that I have seen. The bane of ADA is that it is simultaneously working on too many design ideas and unable to deliver on one. To me, the classification of fighter jets into Light, Medium, Heavy is ridiculous. If we look at the leading air forces throughout the world, this is the era of multirole fighter & they are of two types:
a) Single Engine
b) Twin Engine.
Each variant has two versions (stealth, non-stealth).
By definition, a design with stealth underpinnings without the necessary stealth features is a non-stealth fighter. Hence why should we create an Mk2, AMCA, ORCA blah! blah! instead focus on just one: AMCA.
Spend all your energies, & money to design & productize it fast as a non-stealth medium weight fighter jet. When it grows up, it can be a stealth fighter jet. A variant of the non-stealth can be the deck-based fighter. It's not such an alien concept e.g. Rafale, RafaleM.
Also, all of us are witnessing the Ukraine vs Russia war. Do we see the role of a light multirole fighter jet? Ukraine had MiG-29s, & now has F-16 Blk 40/52. Russia fought the entire war with SU-24(Ground attack), SU-35S (multi role), SU-34 M(Bomb truck), SU-57 <used very sparingly>. The result Ukrainian Mig-29s all got killed, F-16s are being used with much caution & sparingly. There is a lesson in all this for the IAF. If one is thinking of an air engagement with China. The Chinese Air Force will resemble the Russian Air Force. The Tejas Mk1, Mk1A will be useless. Our mainstays are 36 Rafale, 260 SU 30 MKI (provided we upgrade them) - the rest might not even be there.

 

[Spitfire IX]

What's the current state of play with an engine for AMCA Mk2?

I presume that it has not been possible to agree a deal with SAFRAN. Recently there have been reports of RR being the front runner for a deal. Today idrw and indiandefenceupdates report that GTRE is seeking the equivalent of 4.5 billion US dollars to develop, test and certify an engine.

If GTRE could do that, that would be ideal. My view is that if there it is an acceptable probability of GTRE being able to do this, give them the job. It might mean waiting 20 or 25 years for a production engine. It might turn out to be another Kaveri white elephant. So what? If you don't try, you cannot possibly succeed.

If such a project were to fail, a lot would nevertheless be learnt from the R&D involved. To me that outcome would be better than endlessly discussing joint ventures with potential partners, failing to agree to go ahead with any of them, then restarting the abortive process years later.

AMCA Mk1 could soldier on being manufactured for as long as needed.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

What's the current state of play with an engine for AMCA Mk2?

I presume that it has not been possible to agree a deal with SAFRAN. Recently there have been reports of RR being the front runner for a deal. Today idrw and indiandefenceupdates report that GTRE is seeking the equivalent of 4.5 billion US dollars to develop, test and certify an engine.

If GTRE could do that, that would be ideal. My view is that if there it is an acceptable probability of GTRE being able to do this, give them the job. It might mean waiting 20 or 25 years for a production engine. It might turn out to be another Kaveri white elephant. So what? If you don't try, you cannot possibly succeed.

If such a project were to fail, a lot would nevertheless be learnt from the R&D involved. To me that outcome would be better than endlessly discussing joint ventures with potential partners, failing to agree to go ahead with any of them, then restarting the abortive process years later.

AMCA Mk1 could soldier on being manufactured for as long as needed.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE....BUT BUT...THE MAIN PROBLEM IN INDIA IS ITS GOVT. STRUCTURE.....IN EVERY 5 YEARS SPAN THERE IS A CHANCE OF CHANGE IN GOVT. & IN A COUNTRY LIKE INDIA, CHANGE OF GOVT. LEADS TO CHANGE IN POLICIES.....A DEDICATED, CONTINUOUS, UNDISTURBED, COMPLETELY DEVOTED EFFORT TO DEVELOP A BREAK THROUGH TECHNOLOGY LIKE 'AERO ENGINE- HIGH TRUST TURBOJET' IS VERY UNLIKELY IN INDIA.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

What's the current state of play with an engine for AMCA Mk2?

I presume that it has not been possible to agree a deal with SAFRAN. Recently there have been reports of RR being the front runner for a deal. Today idrw and indiandefenceupdates report that GTRE is seeking the equivalent of 4.5 billion US dollars to develop, test and certify an engine.

If GTRE could do that, that would be ideal. My view is that if there it is an acceptable probability of GTRE being able to do this, give them the job. It might mean waiting 20 or 25 years for a production engine. It might turn out to be another Kaveri white elephant. So what? If you don't try, you cannot possibly succeed.

If such a project were to fail, a lot would nevertheless be learnt from the R&D involved. To me that outcome would be better than endlessly discussing joint ventures with potential partners, failing to agree to go ahead with any of them, then restarting the abortive process years later.

AMCA Mk1 could soldier on being manufactured for as long as needed

Now i'm thinking AMCA's future can be transformed.
Imagine if JV can produce a 200 KN wet thrust class VCE in 15 years, then it can power AMWF, AHCA (ATEDBF) and AF-AHCA. Actually current AMCA with 2 engines can become 1 engine version with same or more total thrust, saving cost & time. 1E-AMCA=AMWF.
So 1E-MWF & 2E-AMCA will be LSP.
By just by 1 proper engine, Navy will get 6gen AHCA (ATEDBF), AF will get 1 engine AMWF/AMCA & 2 engine AF-AHCA 6gen jets.
Future secured from 2040s to 2080s.

 

[Spitfire IX]

According to indiandefenceupates, HAL has invited expressions of interest in participation in the AMCA programme. The intention is to set up a company with equity split of 50% HAL, 12.5% held by 4 other players. What that means is that if HAL sees things differently to the 4 other players, nothing can be implemented, Does that sound like an attractive basis on which to invest?

This sounds to me like HAL effectively fighting a rear guard action to retain complete control over AMCA production - the other companies, having invested in the new company, will have no real control over how the company is run. At best they, like HAL, will be able to stop things happening - but only if all 4 disagree with HAL.

May 7th is the deadline for companies to express an interest in participating.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLZ3fW9rAz0

 

[Spitfire IX]

I recall that the proposal was to build 40 Mk1 aircraft powered by F414 to be followed by 80 Mk2 aircraft powered by a new engine. Reading today's piece about AMCA production from idrw, it struck me that there is no reference to AMCA Mk2. Has that been quietly shelved due to the inability to negotiate a deal for a new engine?

HAL Invites 4 Private Firms for JV in AMCA Manufacturing, Offers 50% Stake – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

PS If a contract for a new engine were signed today, I doubt any production engines would be available much before 2040, so I don't see any AMCA Mk2 rolling off the assembly line until the early 2040's.

.