AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Ayan Barat]

Hey @randombully don't stress too much

> The fighter flies at even supersonic speed and enters a code into the laser guided munition's mission computer
> Releases the bombs, doesn't even look back and continues his dash; he needs to get out of there as soon as possible
> The munitions continues towards the target using its INS until it detects a laser reflection matching its modulation code and from here it's a straight line dive/glide
> Most of the times this reflected signal comes from GLTDs (Ground Laser Target Designators) or even HLTDs (Handheld...) carried by SpecOps squad that has infiltrated close to the enemy position

> This role is so important that serious forces like USAF maintain a separate division called TACP or Tactical Air Control Party whose whole training is just doing this

> In recent years this role is being complemented more and more by UAVs as it's far less risky. The whole idea of UAV is that it'd either be so small that even if it gets shot while designating then also the loss would be insignificant or fly so high (10km+) that it'd be out of range for most of the SHORADs.
Both are pictured below

Whatever I wrote is pretty much the SoP for using Laser Guided Munitions for more than a decade or so.

Not every pilot's a Maverick who can both guide a bomb and also do evasive maneuvers, hence you need a WSO who's job is just guiding it while the pilot focusses on saving the plane. In cases where it's just the pilot, you'd find the aircraft being very slow like A-10 so that he can do both. But with time more and more planes are being just single seater so it's becoming more important to "offload" this duty to someone else.

Now coming to the use case of LGBs.
You can't use it on anyone who has the capability to detect them getting "tagged" by a laser...as soon a MBT would sense laser using its LWR, it'd deploy a smokescreen. This is the reason why almost all of the newer ATGMs like Brimstone, AGM-114L/Ns and JAGM have some alternate guidance to complement the SAL. Same goes in bombs; earlier it was just SAL (Paveways), then came GPS+SAL (Laser JDAM) and the newest ones are GPS+SAL+IIR/mmW (StormBreaker). The use of laser guided munitions is now getting predominantly limited to Low Value Targets in COIN Ops like a F/A-18E/F engaging an ISIS truck with laser guided ATGMs or in LSCOs when the area has been "sanitized" like Azerbaijani Bayraktars doing a turkey shoot of Armenian ground troops using MAM-L/Ms. That's it.

And here's the thing, if they're being used predominantly in low intensity operations then it won't matter much when the AMCA would be carrying an external laser pod. Because no matter how much the RCS increases, the target won't be shooting back at you.

I hope this helps a bit

 

[randombully]

Hey @randombully don't stress too much

> The fighter flies at even supersonic speed and enters a code into the laser guided munition's mission computer
> Releases the bombs, doesn't even look back and continues his dash; he needs to get out of there as soon as possible
> The munitions continues towards the target using its INS until it detects a laser reflection matching its modulation code and from here it's a straight line dive/glide
> Most of the times this reflected signal comes from GLTDs (Ground Laser Target Designators) or even HLTDs (Handheld...) carried by SpecOps squad that has infiltrated close to the enemy position
View attachment 24890
> This role is so important that serious forces like USAF maintain a separate division called TACP or Tactical Air Control Party whose whole training is just doing this
View attachment 24891
> In recent years this role is being complemented more and more by UAVs as it's far less risky. The whole idea of UAV is that it'd either be so small that even if it gets shot while designating then also the loss would be insignificant or fly so high (10km+) that it'd be out of range for most of the SHORADs.
Both are pictured below
View attachment 24894
Whatever I wrote is pretty much the SoP for using Laser Guided Munitions for more than a decade or so.

Not every pilot's a Maverick who can both guide a bomb and also do evasive maneuvers, hence you need a WSO who's job is just guiding it while the pilot focusses on saving the plane. In cases where it's just the pilot, you'd find the aircraft being very slow like A-10 so that he can do both. But with time more and more planes are being just single seater so it's becoming more important to "offload" this duty to someone else.

Now coming to the use case of LGBs.
You can't use it on anyone who has the capability to detect them getting "tagged" by a laser...as soon a MBT would sense laser using its LWR, it'd deploy a smokescreen. This is the reason why almost all of the newer ATGMs like Brimstone, AGM-114L/Ns and JAGM have some alternate guidance to complement the SAL. Same goes in bombs; earlier it was just SAL (Paveways), then came GPS+SAL (Laser JDAM) and the newest ones are GPS+SAL+IIR/mmW (StormBreaker). The use of laser guided munitions is now getting predominantly limited to Low Value Targets in COIN Ops like a F/A-18E/F engaging an ISIS truck with laser guided ATGMs or in LSCOs when the area has been "sanitized" like Azerbaijani Bayraktars doing a turkey shoot of Armenian ground troops using MAM-L/Ms. That's it.

And here's the thing, if they're being used predominantly in low intensity operations then it won't matter much when the AMCA would be carrying an external laser pod. Because no matter how much the RCS increases, the target won't be shooting back at you.

I hope this helps a bit

It seems more of disagreement between you and Bhartiya Sainik

I forgot to add that all types of weapon guidance & their counter-measures are relevant in different situations. That's why all major nations are making all of them for weapons & launching platforms, including India.
- Active/Passive RF, home on jam Vs RWR, jamming, decoys, active cancellation, etc.
- Passive IIR Vs DIRCM, thermal camo.
- LGB Vs LWR, smoke screen.

And most weapons are coming now with combo/subset of SatCom, INS, GPS, TERCOM, etc for mid-course phase.

RAM, Thermal camouflage paints, cloth, etc have been developed by various nations incl. India.

BAe has even made active adaptive IR camouflage.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzpVkhm-Otk


No matter what seeker type the weapon uses, VShoRADS (in general), APS (Active Protection System), ground-DEW, even micro-missiles are developed by DRDO also.

Smoke-screen grenades, canisters against laser are short-lived. Fuel injected smoke producing agents also rely on wind, highly unreliable actually.
View attachment 24863

To engage certain moving vehicles, buildings & structures, in natural terrain & urban areas, Laser guidance is best suited where RF, IR, GPS guidance are inappropriate or sub-optimal.
A target with RF+IR camo is immune to RF/IR seekers.
Sometimes a target area/object might be impossible to access or too risky, too deep/far, too time-taking to reach by troops for laser illumination, hence LDPs were designed & now fused with IRST to become EOTS.

EOTS = IRST + LD. Removing LD will make it simply IRST. But F-35, J-20, J-35, Kaan are going for it.

When F-22 & F-35 have retractable chaff/flare/decoy launchers/doors, DAS already conformal, then 6gen might have retractable or conformal EOTS, DIRCM, DEW to maintain RCS.

So b/w all types of multi-spectral seeker Vs target in different situation, it is an eternal Tom & Jerry game, Sword Vs Shield.
There cannot be any gap on either side or the other side will take advantage & succeed.
The best combat jet, manned or unmanned needs to be prepared to attack & defend, in comprehensive or modular ways.

 

[Ayan Barat]

It seems more of disagreement between you and Bhartiya Sainik

Matlab kalesh karwa ke hi maanega...

 

[Spitfire IX]

I understand that years ago Turkiye set out to implement development facilities for its TF-X project including the following:

• Near Field Radar Cross Section Measurement
• Lightning Strike Safety Measurement
• Electromagnetic Compatibility in a Fully Reflection-Free Environment
• Establishment of Large-Scale Structural Strength/Fatigue Test Infrastructure
• Engine/APU Integration and Qualification Test Setups
• Hydraulic/Fuel/Electric/Pneumatic/Avionics Integration and Qualification Test Setups
• Establishment of Climate Control System Design and Integration Laboratories
• Development Test Centers for Uniquely Developed Components (avionics computers, helmet, generator, pump, landing gear, hook, gearbox, oxygen/nitrogen systems, etc.)

Has India done the same sort of thing (invested in the facilities required to develop a fast jet)? I recall recently Tejas Mk2 inlets were wind tunnel tested in France.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

It seems more of disagreement between you and Bhartiya Sainik

Why are you trying to set memebrs on collision course?
Why telling to analyse individuals on social media?
Are you school/college student?
Enthusiasts can range from school students to retired people, from different academic backgrounds, with different comprehension & knowledge, views, opinions, conclusions. That's natural & ok.
DoD not consulting us. We're doing time pass here. Can't 2 siblings, cousins, friends, relatives, etc have difference of opinions?

I always tell not to agree with me but with technology. I can be inaccurate & wrong, but i give pics, diagrams, graphs, tables, basic calculations, whatever i collected in last 30 years & whatever can be verified publicly.
Didn't i tell to focus directly on technology rather than who said what?

I also mentioned that all weapon makers make all type of guidance for different scenarios.

And all decisions have consequences, good or bad, favorable or unfavorable.
History is evident that nations who procrastinate, are ignorant, arrogant, don't research & develop, on time, suffer invasion, defeat, losses.
And we have suffered 1000+ years already.

 

[randombully]

Why are you trying to set memebrs on collision course?
Why telling to analyse individuals on social media?
Are you school/college student?
Enthusiasts can range from school students to retired people, from different academic backgrounds, with different comprehension & knowledge, views, opinions, conclusions. That's natural & ok.
DoD not consulting us. We're doing time pass here. Can't 2 siblings, cousins, friends, relatives, etc have difference of opinions?

I always tell not to agree with me but with technology. I can be inaccurate & wrong, but i give pics, diagrams, graphs, tables, basic calculations, whatever i collected in last 30 years & whatever can be verified publicly.
Didn't i tell to focus directly on technology rather than who said what?

I also mentioned that all weapon makers make all type of guidance for different scenarios.

And all decisions have consequences, good or bad, favorable or unfavorable.
History is evident that nations who procrastinate, are ignorant, arrogant, don't research & develop, on time, suffer invasion, defeat, losses.
And we have suffered 1000+ years already.

Calm down ho jao bhai.
Your point was it's good to have LD integrated.
@Ayan Barat was saying there's no need to integrate LD.

That's the disagreement I'm talking about.
Not any fued or war

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Calm down ho jao bhai.
Your point was it's good to have LD integrated.
@Ayan Barat was saying there's no need to integrate LD.

That's the disagreement I'm talking about.
Not any fued or war

but you don't have to highlight other members agreeing or disagreeing, especially when they are not directly discussing.
You focus on your direct conversations & understanding.
Nobody is giving NDA/CDS coaching class online here.... This tutor said this... that trainer said that.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not too bad...


View: https://x.com/Defence_Squad_/status/1889282901629395231

knowing the indian aerospace history this seems another fantasm.

 

[randombully]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1889341129973440567

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

knowing the indian aerospace history this seems another fantasm.

Like I have said before if military lock the fuck in, they can get AMCA to serial production before 2035, but lack of private sector R&D means defense establishments are juggling many projects at once, we simply don't have enough people working in defense sector, compared to places like USA and China. Blaming DPSU achieves nothing, when decision makers have been half-asleep on our air power crisis since early 2010s.

Indian aerospace industry is literally just govt and very few private sector guys doing very basic level stuff, we've seen success in private space launches, but that's irrelevant here. Capability building can't just be achieved by funds alone, We could have had wind tunnel testing infra and 50000+ tonnes heavy forge by now, if we had started earlier.

Our officials thought we could always just use russian wind tunnels for whatever testing and now we're in this situation. We got dissatisfied in PAK-FA project, pulled out and now they're talks of procuring su-57s. Industry people will do what they are told to do, if decision makers are clueless, then its not problem of our scientists.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

@admin we need some cleanup here. Too much flamebaiting and emojis.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Vinash kale vipreet buddhi

India’s stealth fighter jet steals Aero India show; who’ll make it?

The fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft plan has hit hiccups, with the government yet to finalise if state-run HAL or private giants should manufacture it

www.indiatoday.in

 

[ezsasa]

Vinash kale vipreet buddhi
View attachment 24954

India’s stealth fighter jet steals Aero India show; who’ll make it?

The fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft plan has hit hiccups, with the government yet to finalise if state-run HAL or private giants should manufacture it

www.indiatoday.in

HAL should start charging royalties from youtube and news media channels for making money at the expense of their credibility

 

[TumAapHum]

While the top tier of American/Europeans work for their own aerospace companies, best of Indians work for them too. You only get like third tiers to remain in India willing to work for government salary.

Its not fair to HAL/ADA that Indians keep demanding the best with third tiers resources.

 

[redpanda]

Vinash kale vipreet buddhi
View attachment 24954

India’s stealth fighter jet steals Aero India show; who’ll make it?

The fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft plan has hit hiccups, with the government yet to finalise if state-run HAL or private giants should manufacture it

www.indiatoday.in

HAL knows private players would leave the project if they stall it enough. So all this drama. They did same with the Tejas PPP plan. It's age old tactics eventually the government would be forced to let HAL do most of the work. While the project would get delayed by 5-6 years.

HAL is such a narrow minded organisation. It's not like they are not gonna be part of it. There is always public-private partnership. They can work with a private player and co-manufacture it. But nope, they want to do everything even with their horrible track record. Not denying they have the experience but they should learn to share it, because what is the point of that experience if it rots away without benefiting the country.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

They are supposed to be low cost and expendable compared to fighter jets.
If you try Making them larger, more faster, more manurable, more advance and power full avionics, more payload while still maintain stealth, you will basically end up with "unamanned/AI piloted" amca.
And unamanned capability for fighter jets is being developed.

Let's say one manned manned followed by two unmanned amca and 6-8 cats warriors form one singular unit.

5 fingers are different, Everybody can't examine beyond certain point, hence many companies get defunct, sold out. Many engineers also get fired.
> Adversaries are also developing all these tech, so how would we target their UAVs, that's the way we should think. Then we'll realize how enemy would attack our UAVs & we would require to protect them.
> UAVs are of differnt types but we on AMCA thread are specifically talking about Wingman UCAV fighter. A UCAV which cannot stay & fight along manned fighter can't be called a "wingman". So it needs to have same/identical profile.

> Western economy, industry, affordability, geography, geopolitics, coalation, global agenda, global bases & setup are different. We've none of those. Westen economies are much richer than ours. Their citizens use cars like we use bikes. Their village houses could be better than our middle income group houses. Our citizens purchase overbudgeted foreign made daily items by which they earn & fund their R&D.
Hence what they can think as expendable, we can't.
The WEST could be misleading the world on unprecedented scale by wrong depictions of CCAs. And it is perfectly fair bcoz espionage & hence misinformation war has always been there. Military can disclose very obvious things but not which others would normally take time to catch up.

> In future of improved SAMs, AAMs, IADS, that expendability would be = majority assured loss. it would be like a huge Charity or donation
You also said earlier that after 10-20yrs today's A-MCA might just be MCA as per then tech standards, right?
When F-22, F-117, B-2 were made, there were some people deadly against them. In every nation, on every project, there are always people on For/Against sides.
> By removing pilot, we reduce human loss, but threat to aircraft doesn't decrease.if you remove components like some sensor, EW antennas, countermeasures, weapons, or reduce considerably, then the threat level increases further & survivability decreases. UAVs become dependant on each other & hence handicapped.
So, Low cost = less features = more vulnerable. They will be like big cruise missiles waiting to be shot down. Same like a soldier with poor level of armor & weapons.
Defence is a costly matter & fighter jet is like racing car/bike. If we mix regular car/bike with them, we can't expect same performance obviously. It is like mixing stallions & donkeys.

The best Wingman UCAV is obviously unmanned version of manned fighter. Unmanned AMCA would be very good Wingman UCAV.
Light/Medium/Heavy, none carry any luxury items, every single component has utility for flight & fight.
In future, all UCAV are also supposed to be stealthy. A cruise missile can also be stealthy with big range.
But min size of manned jet & UCAV is governed by min payload, which whould be at least 2 BVR-AAMs + (2 CCMs or 4 VSR-CCMs) in worst case.


If not AMCA-UCAV then consider smallest jet fighter like LCA we have. Now imagine its UCAV version with stealth geometry, IWB, V-tail or tail-less. That's your ALCA-UCAV Wingman.
Removing pilot would also remove pilot associated things like cockpit instruments, OBOGS, ECS, etc, what else?


Why always we wait for world to do something 1st?

 

[Migflug]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slp7vjHxSDo&ab_channel=TarmakMediaHouse%23TMH

 

[randombully]

5 fingers are different, Everybody can't examine beyond certain point, hence many companies get defunct, sold out. Many engineers also get fired.
> Adversaries are also developing all these tech, so how would we target their UAVs, that's the way we should think. Then we'll realize how enemy would attack our UAVs & we would require to protect them.
> UAVs are of differnt types but we on AMCA thread are specifically talking about Wingman UCAV fighter. A UCAV which cannot stay & fight along manned fighter can't be called a "wingman". So it needs to have same/identical profile.

> Western economy, industry, affordability, geography, geopolitics, coalation, global agenda, global bases & setup are different. We've none of those. Westen economies are much richer than ours. Their citizens use cars like we use bikes. Their village houses could be better than our middle income group houses. Our citizens purchase overbudgeted foreign made daily items by which they earn & fund their R&D.
Hence what they can think as expendable, we can't.
The WEST could be misleading the world on unprecedented scale by wrong depictions of CCAs. And it is perfectly fair bcoz espionage & hence misinformation war has always been there. Military can disclose very obvious things but not which others would normally take time to catch up.

> In future of improved SAMs, AAMs, IADS, that expendability would be = majority assured loss. it would be like a huge Charity or donation
You also said earlier that after 10-20yrs today's A-MCA might just be MCA as per then tech standards, right?
When F-22, F-117, B-2 were made, there were some people deadly against them. In every nation, on every project, there are always people on For/Against sides.
> By removing pilot, we reduce human loss, but threat to aircraft doesn't decrease.if you remove components like some sensor, EW antennas, countermeasures, weapons, or reduce considerably, then the threat level increases further & survivability decreases. UAVs become dependant on each other & hence handicapped.
So, Low cost = less features = more vulnerable. They will be like big cruise missiles waiting to be shot down. Same like a soldier with poor level of armor & weapons.
Defence is a costly matter & fighter jet is like racing car/bike. If we mix regular car/bike with them, we can't expect same performance obviously. It is like mixing stallions & donkeys.

The best Wingman UCAV is obviously unmanned version of manned fighter. Unmanned AMCA would be very good Wingman UCAV.
Light/Medium/Heavy, none carry any luxury items, every single component has utility for flight & fight.
In future, all UCAV are also supposed to be stealthy. A cruise missile can also be stealthy with big range.
But min size of manned jet & UCAV is governed by min payload, which whould be at least 2 BVR-AAMs + (2 CCMs or 4 VSR-CCMs) in worst case.
View attachment 24960

If not AMCA-UCAV then consider smallest jet fighter like LCA we have. Now imagine its UCAV version with stealth geometry, IWB, V-tail or tail-less. That's your ALCA-UCAV Wingman.
Removing pilot would also remove pilot associated things like cockpit instruments, OBOGS, ECS, etc, what else?
View attachment 24955

Why always we wait for world to do something 1st?

View attachment 24958
View attachment 24959

We are working on big brother of cats warrior.
And larger ghatak drone.
Which will be between low cost cca's and expensive unamnned amca.

So we have that covered.
We have lowest end ccs( Abhimanyu from new space for navy), low end ccs( cats warrior), medium end( big brother of cats), high end ccs ( ghatak), top end ccs(unamanned amca)

 

[vampyrbladez]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1889276833100923381/photo/1

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Opinions needed
<@146682054782877697>"
The """" """" are the questions I asked and the guy who answer these had a hand in jsf(f35) program.

Just a HAND means what exacty? His real name/ID not required but professional profile, what exactly he did on F-35???? Please share the link of portal where you asked.
You can ask well-qualified engineers of Northrop-Grumann & Boeing too who lost ATF & JSF competition, then what should we do, support LM guys or NG, Boeing guys? That's why i always tell, look at technology directly instead of who said what.
You asked in general or w.r.t. India? I already said about WEST Vs INDIA-

> Western economy, industry, affordability, geography, geopolitics, coalation, global agenda, global bases & setup are different. We've none of those. Westen economies are much richer than ours. Their citizens use cars like we use bikes. Their village houses could be better than our middle income group houses. Our citizens purchase overbudgeted foreign made daily items by which they earn & fund their R&D.
Hence what they can think as expendable, we can't.
The WEST could be misleading the world on unprecedented scale by wrong depictions of CCAs. And it is perfectly fair bcoz espionage & hence misinformation war has always been there. Military can disclose very obvious things but not which others would normally take time to catch up.

> In future of improved SAMs, AAMs, IADS, that expendability would be = majority assured loss. it would be like a huge Charity or donation

===============================================================

dunno where they're getting the idea that a design like that wouldn't be able to do high aoa or perform air combat maneuvering
but generally you don't need all of them to do that
not all UCAVs are created equal
some are multirole which means a reduction in capability in one aspect or another
EW/ISR/INT models don't need to do any of that

they would be more focused on endurance

and some a mixture of those

""""Look pretty small for endurance, plus can they keep with faster fighter jets?""""

some can
others don't need to
operationally you just need them to be in front and/or around the controller
that can be achieved with simple launch timing and formations
cruise missiles aren't supersonic either yet they hit targets at the same time as normal missiles

Don't get confused & dont confuse others. Clearing doubts is also an art. Ask precise questions in terms of PCM. Obviously, all types of UAVs dont require to be agile fighter, but we're talking specifically about Wingman UCAV profile which i explained multiple times incl. previous reply to you.
The person whom you asked didn't talk about aerodynamics like shadow area, intake low pressure, compressor stall, TWR>1 (Thrust to Weight Ratio) required for high AoA dogfight.

And most cruise missiles have been shot down in all current conflicts.
In our future conflicts it would depend how China & Pakistan would be prepared to defend against our subsonic cruise missiles, UAVs/UCAVs & jets. And how we'll be prepared to defend against their assets.

"""""But will larger cca's, with larger payload and speed and more powerful and advanced sensors have any place?
Ones that can use their own radar to lock on to the traget and fire the missile"""""

right now we're not really sure that they would because the whole idea of CCAs are for them to be attritable and mass produced
with that design we would essentially be making an unmanned fighter
and if we're gonna do that it's gonna come with all the bells and whistles

> Again, don't confuse others. How much exactly is your LARGER PAYLOAD & composed of which weapons exactly? Give breakup, like I already explained with table that Light stealth jet, manned or unammed, also needs some minimum payload. So just like the world made Light, Medium, Heavy class manned jets, they'll definitely make UCAVs in different size/weight also. Just wait & watch in coming decades.
The followig kind of advertisements are misleading, wont work. These UCAVs will have run away soon after firing their 2 AAMs.


But the right UCAV above with side intakes is an example of contnious airflow in high AoA also. It just needs some more IWB capacity for 6 total AAMs at least.

> Using accurate networked target info from various assets like chess pawns, as part of networked warfare, is 1 thing & making manned jet & Wingman UCAV dependent for sensors/weapons is another thing, making them helpless & handicapped when remote link/asset is down.

>Repeating- irrespective of size, UCAV Wingman is supposed to fly & fight along with & like manned leader jet. They'll be facing agile 4.5gen, 5.5gen jets.