General History Thread - India : News , Updates & Discussions .

[Azaad]

Man British and Islamic sources and later Mc Sikh sources were eco chambers of fudged histories. Wasnt another fella on DFI beating the bush that Guru attacked Naina Devi - which was diametrically opposite to what actually practice was and is still continued that Devi serves patron for many even kattar Sikhs?

I have another closele related Clan's history written by British in a very flowery language apparently - which has written absurd claims - which are far from believable.

British said Ram set was Adam's Bridge. British also Said Christ hair was preserved in Kashmir. Not everything written during SIamic conquest and British later on especially on sub continental histories should be believed.

I understand one may quickly want to believe in any negative historic claims about a Party whom say may have cognitive bias.

Gurus of Sikhs - were essentially Hindu saints. And whatever Islamic influence you read on them - same affected all Saints / communities under Islamic yoke. Be it Bhakti Saints or Nath Sampraday.

Hell even after almost 78 years of independence - here we are talking in occupier's language, thoughts and follow his customs in day to day professional life.

Imagine your Great Grand Child believing books written by leftist and missionaries sympathizers in west and east.

I've no cognitive or any other bias against the Sikhs or their Gurus. That their Gurus were Khatri Sikhs is well known. The issue here is two fold - whether Guru Nanak had a Muslim wife & whether the Muslims there perceived him to be one of their own. Both are connected & we can't have one without the other.

I believe both to be true for reasons I'd explain. Guru Nanak Devji belongs to a tradition of holy men best described in Western epistemology which they then extended to study non Abrahamic faiths as antinomian.

There's a well established tradition in Indic belief systems & traditions to this effect namely vamachar tantric practices as opposed to dakshinmarg tantric practices where the former is deliberately transgressive & opposed to normative modes of worship , among various other such deviant practices

While Guru Nanak Devji isn't quite a vamachari tantrik , his modes of expressing himself was unusual to say the least from questioning orthodoxy to challenging idol worship etc .His association with Islamic Sufi mystics is also part of the same tradition for want of a better term.

We've enough historical evidence to know that the Muslims then definitely considered Guru Nanak Devji as a muslim or more specifically a Muslim Sufi & the latter didn't do much to change their perception. This latter phenomenon can be explained to his marriage to a Muslim woman. I'd explain this too.

When you reach a certain level of enlightenment once again for want of a better word , the vehicle you choose doesn't matter as much as the destination & having reached the destination comes the realisation that all paths lead to the same end.

This was also a function of the age he lived in where Islamic rule was the norm , it was an age of conflicts & Babur was challenging the Lodis constantly raiding Hindustan which meant that Punjab especially Paxtani Punjab bore the brunt of it .

In such times to be a Hindu preacher gathering followers was equivalent to organising oneself against the state. This was also a convenient fig leaf . You can see much the same with Kabir .

How would you describe Kabir ? As a muslim or as a hindu ? It's an established fact that either his parents or his grandparents likely the former converted to Islam. He was then a first generation convert. However he was also an enlightened being . It was this that brought him to the notice of Swami Ramananda . The rest is known .

What you have here is a synthesis of both Hindu & Islamic thoughts philosophies & practises with Kabir. You can see as much in the way his followers also known as the Kabir Panthis practice their faith.

Ditto for the Sikhs , the only difference being while Sant Kabir didn't anoint a successor , Guru Nanak Devji did & you can actually trace the epochal moments in the trajectory of Sikhi right down to establishing the Khalsa by the last Guru , Guru Gobind Singhji , which at one level was similar to the Sikhi of Guru Nanak Devji but at the same time had metamorphosed into something else.

Modern day historians , sociologists etc classify these groups as Sant Mat groups.

 

[Anants]

I've no cognitive or any other bias against the Sikhs or their Gurus. That their Gurus were Khatri Sikhs is well known. The issue here is two fold - whether Guru Nanak had a Muslim wife & whether the Muslims there perceived him to be one of their own. Both are connected & we can't have one without the other.

I believe both to be true for reasons I'd explain. Guru Nanak Devji belongs to a tradition of holy men best described in Western epistemology which they then extended to study non Abrahamic faiths as antinomian.

There's a well established tradition in Indic belief systems & traditions to this effect namely vamachar tantric practices as opposed to dakshinmarg tantric practices where the former is deliberately transgressive & opposed to normative modes of worship , among various other such deviant practices

While Guru Nanak Devji isn't quite a vamachari tantrik , his modes of expressing himself was unusual to say the least from questioning orthodoxy to challenging idol worship etc .His association with Islamic Sufi mystics is also part of the same tradition for want of a better term.

We've enough historical evidence to know that the Muslims then definitely considered Guru Nanak Devji as a muslim or more specifically a Muslim Sufi & the latter didn't do much to change their perception. This latter phenomenon can be explained to his marriage to a Muslim woman. I'd explain this too.

When you reach a certain level of enlightenment once again for want of a better word , the vehicle you choose doesn't matter as much as the destination & having reached the destination comes the realisation that all paths lead to the same end.

This was also a function of the age he lived in where Islamic rule was the norm , it was an age of conflicts & Babur was challenging the Lodis constantly raiding Hindustan which meant that Punjab especially Paxtani Punjab bore the brunt of it .

In such times to be a Hindu preacher gathering followers was equivalent to organising oneself against the state. This was also a convenient fig leaf . You can see much the same with Kabir .

How would you describe Kabir ? As a muslim or as a hindu ? It's an established fact that either his parents or his grandparents likely the former converted to Islam. He was then a first generation convert. However he was also an enlightened being . It was this that brought him to the notice of Swami Ramananda . The rest is known .

What you have here is a synthesis of both Hindu & Islamic thoughts philosophies & practises with Kabir. You can see as much in the way his followers also known as the Kabir Panthis practice their faith.

Ditto for the Sikhs , the only difference being while Sant Kabir didn't anoint a successor , Guru Nanak Devji did & you can actually trace the epochal moments in the trajectory of Sikhi right down to establishing the Khalsa by the last Guru , Guru Gobind Singhji , which at one level was similar to the Sikhi of Guru Nanak Devji but at the same time had metamorphosed into something else.

Modern day historians , sociologists etc classify these groups as Sant Mat groups.

While your explanation of prevailing religious thought schools in that region and in that era - are somewhat true and that simply does not just limit to Kabir Das, Guru Nanak or even Sai Baba. Even Nath Sampradaya had similar syncretic thoughts. Nath sampradaya esp in what is now Pakistan preached Shiva is Allah and vice versa. Even the Ramdasi sects in North west were not dissimilar in fact many Bhakti traditions of North west were same. Guru Nanak is considered to be among rare saints who were in Turiya state all the time since birth. And Saints who are in Turiya state realy dont discriminate among people. Live example of current era is Swami Hit Premenand ji and Ma Amritamayi ji. Infact if today you really want an example of born muslim but now Hindu saint is Sri M (Infact has a very interesting story) .
Guru Nanak and Ramdasis and other sects all had Guru Gaddi system. Infact thats how Namdharis and Radha Swami sects got the practice of the same. Some Muslims have Khadims some ayotollahs but not Gurus or Guru Gaddi system.

However how does that prove that Guru Nanak had two wives. Look had this fact been any true. Believe me SGPC of today would have run away with it to proclaim Sikhism and Islam are conjoined brothers, Infact proudly state Sikhism was founded by Muslim !!! Since this claim is wide and weak legs is the reason even though tempting SGPC seem to stay away from it. Its well known Guru Gobind had multiple wives. Its well known Maharaja Ranjit singh had Malsi concu bine.

But about Guru Nanak - the claim you posted is all farce. If Guru Nanak was Muslim why his Eldest son chose path of ascetism similar to Nath Sampradaya?

 

[Azaad]

While your explanation of prevailing religious thought schools in that region and in that era - are somewhat true and that simply does not just limit to Kabir Das, Guru Nanak or even Sai Baba. Even Nath Sampradaya had similar syncretic thoughts. Nath sampradaya esp in what is now Pakistan preached Shiva is Allah and vice versa. Even the Ramdasi sects in North west were not dissimilar in fact many Bhakti traditions of North west were same. Guru Nanak is considered to be among rare saints who were in Turiya state all the time since birth. And Saints who are in Turiya state realy dont discriminate among people. Live example of current era is Swami Hit Premenand ji and Ma Amritamayi ji. Infact if today you really want an example of born muslim but now Hindu saint is Sri M (Infact has a very interesting story) .
Guru Nanak and Ramdasis and other sects all had Guru Gaddi system. Infact thats how Namdharis and Radha Swami sects got the practice of the same. Some Muslims have Khadims some ayotollahs but not Gurus or Guru Gaddi system.

However how does that prove that Guru Nanak had two wives.

That's what the claim is backed up by some documentary evidence albeit not clinching evidence. I'm not saying it's true . I'm saying it's plausible.

Look had this fact been any true. Believe me SGPC of today would have run away with it to proclaim Sikhism and Islam are conjoined brothers, Infact proudly state Sikhism was founded by Muslim !!! Since this claim is wide and weak legs is the reason even though tempting SGPC seem to stay away from it. Its well known Guru Gobind had multiple wives. Its well known Maharaja Ranjit singh had Malsi concu bine.

Frankly I don't think SGPC will go so far if that's the case ,for the next logical step would then be Islam. SGPC derives its power from Sikhi especially JuttSikhi their own version of Sikhi.

If they conceded it's founders roots were Islamic then what are they needed for ? Might as well accept the roots are islamic & go back to it transferring all such public property to the Waqf.

After all the Guru's line ended in with the last Sikh Guru & as you rightly pointed out Guru Gobind Singhji didn't anoint a successor nor did he leave behind a Khadim or Gaddi system . So why is the SGPC needed if it's been established that Sikhi especially JuttSikhi owes its origin to Islam.

But about Guru Nanak - the claim you posted is all farce. If Guru Nanak was Muslim why his Eldest son chose path of ascetism similar to Nath Sampradaya?

Once again I never claimed he's muslim . I'm saying certain muslims then believed he was a Sufi which he may not have cared to dispel & which may have also resulted in a marriage to a Muslim woman. This marriage produced 2 girl children.

His eldest son was born of a different wife . Moreover Sri Chand the founder of the Udasi order & first son of Guru Nanak Devji was disinherited precisely because the former disapproved of asceticism. Guru Nanak Devji stood for engagement with society by being part of it not by shunning it.

 

[Anants]

That's what the claim is backed up by some documentary evidence albeit not clinching evidence. I'm not saying it's true . I'm saying it's plausible.

So you are saying Your grand children will consider like of Audrey Truschke and the like's writings on Hinduism as documentary evidence in future?

Frankly I don't think SGPC will go so far if that's the case ,for the next logical step would then be Islam. SGPC derives its power from Sikhi especially JuttSikhi their own version of Sikhi.

Oh you dont know the depravity in them to do just that what you think they would refrain

If they conceded it's founders roots were Islamic then what are they needed for ? Might as well accept the roots are islamic & go back to it transferring all such public property to the Waqf.

ESSGPC wants to portray it Malsi++. Very akin to what malsi says about ej and joo.

After all the Guru's line ended in with the last Sikh Guru & as you rightly pointed out Guru Gobind Singhji didn't anoint a successor nor did he leave behind a Khadim or Gaddi system . So why is the SGPC needed if it's been established that Sikhi especially JuttSikhi owes its origin to Islam.

Guru never said No to Gaddi system. He died untimely. To prevent infighting for sucession - their followers claimed Sab Sikhan nu Hukam Guru Manyo Granth. Namdhari and Nirmalas - do not agree Guru ever said that.

Once again I never claimed he's muslim . I'm saying certain muslims then believed he was a Sufi which he may not have cared to dispel & which may have also resulted in a marriage to a Muslim woman. This marriage produced 2 girl children.

Its fine. Many Malsi try to appropriate every Hindu saint if possible they want to believe in - while still maintaining Malsi membership. Even Ramanna Maharishi, RamKrishna Paramhansa , Swami Vivekananda had Malsi followers. You also know that Shri Ramkrishna even followed it among many religions - to establish equivalance. That what every True saint did and does even today.

His eldest son was born of a different wife .

Again a farcical hearsay!

Moreover Sri Chand the founder of the Udasi order & first son of Guru Nanak Devji was disinherited precisely because the former disapproved of asceticism. Guru Nanak Devji stood for engagement with society by being part of it not by shunning it.

Because just it was just like Vashnaivities - who discouraged/Disapproved ascetism in general at young age. Raising Sanatani family first while adhereing Vasihnavite principles - is considered higher than ascetism.

 

[Azaad]

So you are saying Your grand children will consider like of Audrey Truschke and the like's writings on Hinduism as documentary evidence in future?

It's for the Sikhs to disprove it . Trushcke has been disproved & will be disproved further in future for she's lying.

On the other hand with JuttSikhi they're clearly engaged in suppression of Sikhi's foundational roots with Sanatan Dharma & highlight the Islamic influences on it.

And there are enough sources to justify the latter including the claim that Muslims believe Guru Nanak Devji was a Sufi mystic . His marriage with a muslim woman is another matter as it hasn't been amply attested . Could be a clear falsehood too or not . It's for the Sikhs to respond.

Oh you dont know the depravity in them to do just that what you think they would refrain

They'd refrain is coz ultimately this is question of power & money. I've already given my reasons why they wouldn't back such claims. Add to it , it'd set a firestorm within the community. They will definitely be targeted & I don't mean only for some mild penal action . It'd be a lot worse than that including their lives being at stake.

ESSGPC wants to portray it Malsi++. Very akin to what malsi says about ej and joo.

Yes , that's been their gameplan throughout.

Guru never said No to Gaddi system. He died untimely. To prevent infighting for sucession - their followers claimed Sab Sikhan nu Hukam Guru Manyo Granth. Namdhari and Nirmalas - do not agree Guru ever said that.

No much clued in to the succession battles but from what I understand Guru Gobind Singhji clearly asked his followers to consider the SGGS as their protector & perceptor after him as the line of Guruship ended with him .

Koenraad Elst remarked that the last Guru didn't want the Guruship to go outside his family now that he had no successors.

That's precisely the reason Banda Singh Bahadur didn't claim the Guruship nor was he anointed by Guru Gobind Singhji as his heir & successor.

That's also the reason when he was seen as appropriating or at any rate threatening to appropriate the Guruship in the perception of some then , he was opposed by Guru Gobind Singhji's widow & a section of Sikhi - the Tat Khalsa .

Its fine. Many Malsi try to appropriate every Hindu saint if possible they want to believe in - while still maintaining Malsi membership. Even Ramanna Maharishi, RamKrishna Paramhansa , Swami Vivekananda had Malsi followers. You also know that Shri Ramkrishna even followed it among many religions - to establish equivalance. That what every True saint did and does even today.

IMO , the Muslims are much more fanatic in that sense. Was Sai Baba a Muslim ? Yes he was. Did he have Muslim disciples ? Yes he did.

However after his Samadhi once Hindus took over management of his shrine his Muslim disciples dropped rapidly such that you rarely come across any today.

It's the same story for the ones you've named & more . However the vice versa doesn't hold true . Hindus don't have any problem going to Dargahs even those like the ones in Ajmer or Nizammuddin .

Again a farcical hearsay!

The hearsay is that he had a Muslim wife .

Because just it was just like Vashnaivities - who discouraged/Disapproved ascetism in general at young age. Raising Sanatani family first while adhereing Vasihnavite principles - is considered higher than ascetism.

Frankly I haven't come across anything suggesting Guru Nanak Devji was a Vaishnava except a claim here by a modern day Sant .

He didn't even proscribe meat eating even if he himself abstained from it . That's one of the first thing a Vaishnava Saint is supposed to do. You can look it up. Guru Nanak Devji & his views on non vegetarian food.

In fact later Gurus like Guru Hargobindji , Guru Tegh Bahadurji & Guru Gobind Singhji were avid hunters. Are these signs of a Vaishnav much less a Vaishnav Saint ?

 

[Anants]

It's for the Sikhs to disprove it . Trushcke has been disproved & will be disproved further in future for she's lying.

Provided disapproval gets preserved over her works. Do you think there were not disapproval within Sikh community of getting counted separate from Hindus. On the contrary - there were plenty. The numbers waned with time and generations.

On the other hand with JuttSikhi they're clearly engaged in suppression of Sikhi's foundational roots with Sanatan Dharma & highlight the Islamic influences on it.

True but this point has nothing to do with current discussion.

And there are enough sources to justify the latter including the claim that Muslims believe Guru Nanak Devji was a Sufi mystic .

Sufi and Bhakti were closely intertwined in that era. Infact Sufi was Bhaktism ported to Malsi world.

His marriage with a muslim woman is another matter as it hasn't been amply attested . Could be a clear falsehood too or not . It's for the Sikhs to respond.

Let them respond or not. But in the interest of preserving Sanatani culture, ethos and Nation - Sanatnis ought to reclaim to all what belongs to them. Guru and his teachings were verily part and parcel of Sanatani thought

They'd refrain is coz ultimately this is question of power & money. I've already given my reasons why they wouldn't back such claims. Add to it , it'd set a firestorm within the community. They will definitely be targeted & I don't mean only for some mild penal action . It'd be a lot worse than that including their lives being at stake.

Naah, They have written even bizzare claims to show its closeness to Malsi. they wont even bat an eyelid if they had reasons enough to believe so.

Yes , that's been their gameplan throughout.

Exactly thats why ESSGPSEE would love to agree with you if they had reasons strong enough

No much clued in to the succession battles but from what I understand Guru Gobind Singhji clearly asked his followers to consider the SGGS as their protector & perceptor after him as the line of Guruship ended with him .

The only source for that claim was Banda Bahadur himself. It is said he did precisely stop infighting and instead concentrate on Anti Mughal fight. Succession battles were always there.

Koenraad Elst remarked that the last Guru didn't want the Guruship to go outside his family now that he had no successors.

Then why he was in Nanded? If his mindset was that narrow as you allude

That's precisely the reason Banda Singh Bahadur didn't claim the Guruship nor was he anointed by Guru Gobind Singhji as his heir & successor.

It could also be total dedication to Guru prevented him doing so. Not every Chela desires Guru Gaddi

That's also the reason when he was seen as appropriating or at any rate threatening to appropriate the Guruship in the perception of some then , he was opposed by Guru Gobind Singhji's widow & a section of Sikhi - the Tat Khalsa .

Yes As I said infighting for Guru Gaddi was always there. Banda Bahadur decided to concentrate on Larger Goal at hand first.

IMO , the Muslims are much more fanatic in that sense. Was Sai Baba a Muslim ? Yes he was. Did he have Muslim disciples ? Yes he did.

According to costume and Naam and some customs he looked like. But but with some customs he did not look like. Dhuni, Brahmin's like Ear Peircing. Non Circum - and extolling Bahgvat Puran and Vishnu Sahsranaam. Calling His Residence as Dwaramayi and celebrating Raam Navami inside Masjid - do you think any Muslim would have done so?

However after his Samadhi once Hindus took over management of his shrine his Muslim disciples dropped rapidly such that you rarely come across any today.

Muslims were also there in Amarnath Management earlier - later they vanished too. Happened elsewhere too.

It's the same story for the ones you've named & more . However the vice versa doesn't hold true . Hindus don't have any problem going to Dargahs even those like the ones in Ajmer or Nizammuddin .

Ajmer and Nizam - are strongly considered that once Holy temples existed. Its possible even destruction - Hindus still went and paid respects at same place even after destruction. That tradition just carried out to become what it has today.

The hearsay is that he had a Muslim wife .

Yes a Farcical one

Frankly I haven't come across anything suggesting Guru Nanak Devji was a Vaishnava except a claim here by a modern day Sant .

I am drawing parallels between his teaching and beliefs and Vaishnavism. Many militant thoughts echo each other.

He didn't even proscribe meat eating even if he himself abstained from it . That's one of the first thing a Vaishnava Saint is supposed to do. You can look it up. Guru Nanak Devji & his views on non vegetarian food.

Look Even Srila Prabhupada said what Guru Nanak said. Eat for Survival. If you need to eat meat for Survival when no other source of food is there then eat meat.

In fact later Gurus like Guru Hargobindji , Guru Tegh Bahadurji & Guru Gobind Singhji were avid hunters. Are these signs of a Vaishnav much less a Vaishnav Saint ?

But vegetarianism is still extolled. You dont get meat in Gurudwaras and you cant even take them inside. Some of Amritdhari Sikhs rules have are simply borrowed for Janeudhari Brahmin rules including vegetarianism and not eating Jootha. Y


just leaving it here

Vrindavan: Banke Bihari temple dismisses "boycott Muslims" call

The priest of Banke Bihari Temple claimed that the boycott is not feasible and the local residents also agreed with his assessment. | OpIndia News

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