Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

There are way more informed members on this thread, I'd let them come up with a more exhaustive list. I'd state just one advantage.

Of all the planes in IAF inventory that are actively used, Il-76s have kind of comically severe spare parts issue. Not a big deal for transport as C-17s are already there to complement them...but a big deal because all our aerial refueler and large AWACS are Il-76s.

So one advantage that C-295 would definitely bring is the fact that we've a full fledged assembly line here in India.

keep that in mind, C 295 can take maximum payload of 9000 kg. but with 6000 kg payload it can give near 3700 km range. 9000 kg payload will give near 2800-3000 km range. so its good for AWACS role, coz our two enimies hv border with us....but average for aerial refuler role. it can filled oil to aircrafts only near 1500-1700 km range. which is little better than heavy weight fighter aircraft combat range. that mean if our su 30 mki (which hv 1500 km combat range) fly with C295 based refueler, C295 only give su 30 mki additional 1500 km combat range. that make su 30 mki combat range 3000 km. which is average capabilities.

but if we buy C130 aircraft like medium weight transport in our 40-80 medium weight transport aircraft deal. nd buy some 6-10 additional C130 aircraft to modify it in a refueler. C130 aircraft hv maximum payload of 19000 kg. its range is 7300 km. so it can give near 3600 km combat range. so it can boost a su 30 mki fleet operation capabilities near 1500+3600= 5100 km. compare to C295 3000 km combat range, it is significant boost. that mean more oil nd more combat range (specially beneficial in sea operation).

so for AWACS C 295 is good choice (if we r not making 12 netra 1 nd netra 2 AWACS). but for refueling role we should prefer another medium weight class transport.

beside this navy is planning to buy 15 C295 based reconnaissance aircraft. but 18-28 C95 based antiship nd antisubmarine varient is very beneficial for our navy.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Something that isn't talked about enough. The AMCA is already outgunned as it is. We need a bigger jet with more internal space (at least 6 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs). Something else I always disliked was the IRST sticking out like a sore thumb. The Mk1 AMCA design can no longer be justified in 2030+ scenarios. Reverse engineer and improve the AL-31 with metallurgical breakthroughs made by the Kaveri program. Squeeze out at least 160kn per engine and stick a pair on a bigger AHCA. And letting it fly without a comprehensive EOTS assembly is ludicrous. China has been flashing their EOTS from the J-20 for 10 years now. The AMCA is simply not a competitive design anymore.

My college senior who worked on LCA told us in 2005, 19yrs back, that many employees inside DoD units wanted to use Su-30's engine for Flaner sized heavy class stealth jet (AHCA). But just like many members disagree here same way there also.
Years back when i saw AMCA internal load online with just 4 AAMs, i disagreed with it.
After corona pandemic i went offline. When i thought of discussing AHCA & returned this year, DFI got closed.
Fortunately this site opened & finally i decided to open AHCA concept study thread on 15 August.

Thread 'AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?'

Aug 15, 2024

CAUTION/DISCLAIMER:
- This thread is inspired by global tech evolution, R&D & big jets like Su-3X including Naval variant Su-33.
- On casual forum, there is no need to wait for official govt. or DoD statements.
- Neither global tech evolution waits for lagging countries, nor Discussions for every component to mature & be available.

>Some day upgraded Super-Su-30MKI will need replacement by similar size & weight jet due to technological advancement, requirement of 5th-6th gen. Even after Super-Sukhoi upgrade which is analogous to Su-35-S, the RCS & IRS will be quite high.
>The radars...

• Bhartiya Sainik
• Replies: 78
• Forum: Indian Air & Space Forces

• 

 

[Corvus Splendens]

If Su-57 is so helpless then what will MKI, Rafale, LCA, MWF do, especially if J-20 attacks on a cloudy night?

Not much really. The Rafale can hoodwink with Spectra but it will still get detected first. You're a very optimistic fella comparing a Su-30 and Tejas with a J-20B.

The 5gen jets are stealthy but not the missiles.

Except a stealth fighter can get as close as possible to the missile's minimum release point/NEZ without getting locked on. There is nothing a 4th gen fighter do to mimic that.

- A BVR missile also follows Leading intercept point by which it can be fooled on a wrong trajectory. It also depends how smartly the missile has been programmed.
View attachment 19822
- Pilots try to go U turn or low level to introduce ground clutter for missile, terrain masking if possible.
- Once a missile comes down early it has to fight dense air resistance, so then pilot can continue low level or rise to higher altitude to deplete missile's kinetic energy.
- If missile uses active terminal homing, RWR can catch it & EW antennas can try to jam it. The pilot can make U turn & outrun the missile.
- If missile goes passive homing or home-on-jamming then jet's AESA antennas can also go passive. But by this time the general direction of missile is nown so pilot can still make U-turn.
- A rear AESA can just flash narrow beams to update situation
View attachment 19818

Whatever trick our radars and missiles can do, theirs can too. The jet makes the difference here. You are assuming the chinese jets are being piloted by idiots. Forget jamming radars, everybody uses AESA seekers now. Jamming won't be a piece of cake. Warfare has changed, you sneak into your weapon's NEZ without your opponent getting a lock, and you bug out. Better missiles do make a difference yes. But again you're just arguing tactics here. Qualitatively our jets don't match up. Forget the J-20, their new J-16 flankers are enough to play spoil sport over Himalayas.

- Su-57 may not be satisfactorily stealthy from front head on, but what about angled approach & side profile?

Good idea, lets fly sideways onwards.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

* Pakis will have 3 squadrons of stealth fighter by 2030. (Pakis have curtailed planned JF-17 BLK3 numbers realizing the dawn of a new era).

* J-20 annual production rate will reach 3 digits in 2025-26.

* The 2 Chinese 6th gen aircraft unveiled yesterday will get service inducted latest by 2033.
_________________________________________

Implications of above developments on Indian plans ahead:

* Additional 97 MK1A might get cancelled.

* MK2 gets limited to 100-120 aircraft.

* Emergency procurement of MRFA & 5th gen platform.

* Rush for Super sukhoi upgrade.

* Increase in planned numbers of AMCA MK1 from earlier planned 40 units.

 

[AbRaj]

If you want to play politics there are many threads in there.

No need to get butthurt. Press ignore button and don’t quote me again

 

[shade2]

* Pakis will have 3 squadrons of stealth fighter by 2030. (Pakis have curtailed planned JF-17 BLK3 numbers realizing the dawn of a new era).

* J-20 annual production rate will reach 3 digits in 2025-26.

* The 2 Chinese 6th gen aircraft unveiled yesterday will get service inducted latest by 2033.

Will believe this when i see it, for now this is just dhoti-shivering by vested interests or ISI agitprop.

Chings have 0 reason to give the US slaves Pukeistan their latest stealth jets which are going to be their mainstay on their carriers and Type 76 LHAs

If they want they can slam us by themselves with their over 700 Black J-20s of Xi Jinpig, no need to CoUnTeR iNdiA bY BaCkInG BaKiStan, even J-10C was provided after intense groveling and begging by PAF Air Marshalls after India acquired Rafale.

Implications of above developments on Indian plans ahead:

* Additional 97 MK1A might get cancelled.

* MK2 gets limited to 100-120 aircraft.

* Emergency procurement of MRFA & 5th gen platform.

You actually are an ISI agent aren't you?
How did you acquire these plans of our esteemed Air Marshalls?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Well for some country that worshipped Gods whose part and parcel are Weapons somehow Peaceful Kool-Aid taken too far had induced degeneracy. We have Epics, Scriptures, Temples and Culture where worshipping Weapons are inherent. Indian Steel was exported and finest for millenia. India was making Ships larger than Europoors and selling to them.

Yeah and then for whatever reason 1700s rolled around we stopped focussing on making shit. Maybe its too much focus on mughals for architecture and not enough on anything else, but i dont know the reason.
What i do know, is that the entire period of 1700 to today, we were the dominant economy of the world till 1750, then declining under colonialism, but even throughout the 1700s, our innovation in industry had come to total stop and our industrial power was already regressing.
And we still havent come out of that mentality today.

 

[darkflame]

Additional 97 MK1A might get cancelled.

* MK2 gets limited to 100-120 aircraft.

we really need tejas MK1A since about 1/4 of Chinese fighters are old mig21s and jh7 fighter bombers tejas will be needed in large nos to counter these and we will also need tejas for countering paki jf17s.
chinkis also operate about 600 j10s, though j10s are bigger their payload capacity is limited to only 5500kg tejasMK2 can easily take on these jets
china also have like 700 flankers, 225 of these are su27 for now we have our mirage 2000s, mig29s and mig29ks in this category(total comes around 160) , getting more used mirage 2000s should be a priority
more MKI squadrons will be needed for sure, if possible we should procure at least 3-4 squadrons more
to keep chinki flankers in check.

 

[Gurmeet]

Yeah and then for whatever reason 1700s rolled around we stopped focussing on making shit. Maybe its too much focus on mughals for architecture and not enough on anything else, but i dont know the reason.
What i do know, is that the entire period of 1700 to today, we were the dominant economy of the world till 1750, then declining under colonialism, but even throughout the 1700s, our innovation in industry had come to total stop and our industrial power was already regressing.
And we still havent come out of that mentality today.

That 2 century of colonizations nearly did a number on us.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I'm still neutral, just technical, not taikng sides or concluding.

Not much really. The Rafale can hoodwink with Spectra but it will still get detected first. You're a very optimistic fella comparing a Su-30 and Tejas with a J-20B.

If Rafale can hoodwink, so can Su-57's sensor suite which is relatively newer.
But missile can be fired at both in HOJ mode. IDK about SPECTRA but i would expect Su-57's IRST & DAS to detect missile plume at 50-80 Kms. And J-20's fuselage is stealth but it still needs to lock on Su-57 to fire AAM which might be picked up by Su-57. All stealth jets have this challenge of not revealing their radar beams.

Except a stealth fighter can get as close as possible to the missile's minimum release point/NEZ without getting locked on. There is nothing a 4th gen fighter do to mimic that.
Whatever trick our radars and missiles can do, theirs can too. The jet makes the difference here. You are assuming the chinese jets are being piloted by idiots. Forget jamming radars, everybody uses AESA seekers now. Jamming won't be a piece of cake. Warfare has changed, you sneak into your weapon's NEZ without your opponent getting a lock, and you bug out. Better missiles do make a difference yes. But again you're just arguing tactics here. Qualitatively our jets don't match up. Forget the J-20, their new J-16 flankers are enough to play spoil sport over Himalayas.

No i'm a tech analyst, i never assume anybody to be idiot. I'm not arguing on tactics, just conveying what i read in articles & interviews of real pilots, instructors, others in the industry. That's what our pilots would do.
But now against J-20, MRFA is useless & IAF jets along border states can be wiped out by J-20s any time, right?

Good idea, lets fly sideways onwards.

what if a saw tooth flight pattern is used by Su-57?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

While the world advances, we Indians will keep fighting within ourselves. Our egos are too fragile. As evident by the fiasco between ayan barat and this weird high IQ bharatiya sainik.

You make an identical username, no probs. You give likes to my post but still call me weird, why?

 

[RocketMan]

Just gonna leave this here
A reminder of the price that one must pay for decades of institutional incompetency
View attachment 19611

There needs to be mass purge of Chandigarh lobby, MoD babus & Imported AirForce otherwise our AirForce will be crippled by 2050s.

 

[shade2]

Our usual defence twitter guys are on fire, Aditya KM, Firestarter etc, Import dalals are being mercilessly burnt left right and center.

Pity at the end of the day the dalals will get what they want though.

 

[RocketMan]

I'm British. I am also an analyst by profession. I am critical where I see failure. I criticise the British procurement system where I see failure, just as I criticise Indian procurement. The comparative magnitude of the incompetence of and in the two systems means that I criticise India more.

It's over for Imported AirForce . There's nothing we can do , 4 th largest economy my a$$ ! Even if India becomes 2nd largest economy we'll still be 50yrs behind in defence.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Our usual defence twitter guys are on fire, Aditya KM, Firestarter etc, Import dalals are being mercilessly burnt left right and center.

Pity at the end of the day the dalals will get what they want though.

Isn't there some Hellfire guy, I wonder what will he say after seeing Chinese sixth gen fighter.

Everyone remember that both Tejas and J-10 both flew first flights mere 4 years apart. J-10 flew first in 1998 and Tejas flew in 2002. Infact ours could have been faster if not for the Nuke Sanctions taking entire program years back. The Chinese then had J-20 within decade and now J-36 within another decade. They didn't sit by leisurely, I don't know what geniuses did between 2002 to 2016, a full 14 years are wasted.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

I'm still neutral, just technical, not taikng sides or concluding.


If Rafale can hoodwink, so can Su-57's sensor suite which is relatively newer.
But missile can be fired at both in HOJ mode. IDK about SPECTRA but i would expect Su-57's IRST & DAS to detect missile plume at 50-80 Kms. And J-20's fuselage is stealth but it still needs to lock on Su-57 to fire AAM which might be picked up by Su-57. All stealth jets have this challenge of not revealing their radar beams.


No i'm a tech analyst, i never assume anybody to be idiot. I'm not arguing on tactics, just conveying what i read in articles & interviews of real pilots, instructors, others in the industry. That's what our pilots would do.
But now against J-20, MRFA is useless & IAF jets along border states can be wiped out by J-20s any time, right?


what if a saw tooth flight pattern is used by Su-57?

Most people do not know anything about the detection game.
I am math dude with compsci/electrical engineering (not completed) background and even i barely get what is going on.
I have come to realize how the normal people think of stealth/detection/radar locking on/radar evasion etc: they think its harry potter's cloak vs eye of sauron kind of thing, where new MOAR BETTAR magic defeats sauron or makes gg to harry puttar's cloak.

For eg, they do not know that Niim BAARS is an EXCELLENT radar thats on the Su-30. yes, its old gen PESA radar, but it is literally eye of sauron powerful when its facking switched on and it WILL lock on u with a greater lock on active rate than even some of the best western fighter jet radars like we have in the F16.
Because how good your radar is also has one simple component that gets ignored in all the story-telling of these radars in the various defence magazines and forums (coz those stories are mostly told by non technical people) : wattage. As Cercei Lannister says 'powwah is powwah', so its also true in radar world - my 1 gazillion watt hunk of junk that may be the size of a house will see you like the eye of sauron against ur puny fancy AESA modular radar of 2 watts.

People often do not know one simple detail about stealth aircraft : Stealth aircraft are amazing at being stealth against OTHER aircrafts. They are rather shit at being all spectrum stealth and are actually NOT stealth to low band weather radars.
Yes, its low resolution but its still 'i see your fancy f22' if i got a simple weather radar around. Yes, thats just how the science works out and its not that hard to get weather radars integrated into static defence for anti air batteries to spot stealth from ground.

I mean, there MUST be a reason why despite stealth aircraft being around in service for 20 years now, its never been used to directly bomb a country with significant air defences, most notabl Iran.
Israel going through all the trouble of flying right to the edge of Iranian airspace with their F35s, lobbing bombs and facking off, instead of ENTERING the air space is the key story of stealth aircrafts : its good engaging non stealth aircrafts but its ability to penetrate enemy air space with significiant ground radar assets is questionable.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Also very very thanks to Shiv Aroor. If not for him all other illiterate dumbfuck dehati Journos who can't even spell "Engine" would absolutely have no idea or intention how adversely it would effect Indian Military Capability. Atleast people are talking which otherwise would have been limited to Defense Community only.

 

[narasimh]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JrJ7oDYQJw

 

[Ginvincible]

trengthening Air defences with top of the line Radars & EW Capabilities.

We have developed our own IRST... for Super sukhoi & MK2... why can't we place that on a 30m mast at all possible locations to supplement our radar coverage.

Many ideas can be worked upon.

We need stockpile of Pinaka-ER, Pralay and Nirbhay for standoff strikes... to offset lack of Airpower doing the same.

If F35 can be procured without much of strings attached then excellent, can be a stop gap till things fall into place otherwise this is what I'd say

• at least 10 squadrons of Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft; not AMCA
• around 15 squadrons of upgraded Su-30MkIs with Uttam, Astra Mk-III and above average EW system
• around 25 squadrons of ORCA to make up the bulk of your force with a cost effective yet decent fighter. This also includes cancelling orders of Mk-1A and stopping Mk-2
• at least 2 squadrons of Phalcon type large AWACS

Do at least this, cut the clutter as much as possible. Rest we'll deal with 6th adversary with time

The AMCA is already outgunned as it is. We need a bigger jet with more internal space (at least 6 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs). Something else I always disliked was the IRST sticking out like a sore thumb. The Mk1 AMCA design can no longer be justified in 2030+ scenarios. Reverse engineer and improve the AL-31 with metallurgical breakthroughs made by the Kaveri program. Squeeze out at least 160kn per engine and stick a pair on a bigger AHCA. And letting it fly without a comprehensive EOTS assembly is ludicrous.

If India was capable of doing even a fraction of suggestions like these, the IAF wouldn't be in the position it is in today.

The modern Indian state simply lacks the technical and bureaucratic competency to develop/procure modern defense equipment. Even just somewhat reliable budgetary planning for for future acquisitions is a struggle. I'm sure there are many interconnected reasons why this is.

The IN is the best arm when it comes to modernization, but even their plans largely revolve around getting under-equipped platforms and hoping that they can be brought up to spec in the future with refits. They also have more appetite to try untested local solutions since they have less budget.

There needs to be a major shakeup within India's defense planning and strategy management. I don't know what needs to be done, just that it likely won't happen until India loses its next war.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

If India was capable of doing even a fraction of suggestions like these, the IAF wouldn't be in the position it is in today.

The modern Indian state simply lacks the technical and bureaucratic competency to develop/procure modern defense equipment. Even just somewhat reliable budgetary planning for for future acquisitions is a struggle. I'm sure there are many interconnected reasons why this is.

The IN is the best arm when it comes to modernization, but even their plans largely revolve around getting under-equipped platforms and hoping that they can be brought up to spec in the future with refits. They also have more appetite to try untested local solutions since they have less budget.

There needs to be a major shakeup within India's defense planning and strategy management. I don't know what needs to be done, just that it likely won't happen until India loses its next war.

IN is also by far the most competent of the military wings in terms of fulfilling its base mandate of defence: barring Uncle Sam , even the vaunted PLAN will think twice to enter our littoral seas in wartime.

IAF is by far the biggest disappointment in terms of performance and vision for all the wings of the Indian armed forces, though make no mistake - i dont think our navy is as indegenous as it appears either - i am not sure how far along IN is in casting its own propellers, which is a high end elite level technology for naval industries and mostly imported by vast majority of the world from just a handful of vendors.