Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Blademaster]

- i am not sure how far along IN is in casting its own propellers, which is a high end elite level technology for naval industries and mostly imported by vast majority of the world from just a handful of vendors.

It's the machining that's the most difficult. To avoid detection by sonar, you have to machine the propellers to avoid cavitation and producing certain sounds. That's why USN always cover up the propellers before releasing any public pictures of the subs and ships to avoid analysis of the machining patterns of the propellers as they would be a dead giveaway to sonar patterns.

 

[rockdog]

 

[Bleh]

View attachment 19848

Definitely a sniper-bomber... Middle engine will stay at high-AoA of dogfight, with that too intake, but will be very stealthy in a level flight!

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Most people do not know anything about the detection game.
I am math dude with compsci/electrical engineering (not completed) background and even i barely get what is going on.
I have come to realize how the normal people think of stealth/detection/radar locking on/radar evasion etc: they think its harry potter's cloak vs eye of sauron kind of thing, where new MOAR BETTAR magic defeats sauron or makes gg to harry puttar's cloak.

For eg, they do not know that Niim BAARS is an EXCELLENT radar thats on the Su-30. yes, its old gen PESA radar, but it is literally eye of sauron powerful when its facking switched on and it WILL lock on u with a greater lock on active rate than even some of the best western fighter jet radars like we have in the F16.
Because how good your radar is also has one simple component that gets ignored in all the story-telling of these radars in the various defence magazines and forums (coz those stories are mostly told by non technical people) : wattage. As Cercei Lannister says 'powwah is powwah', so its also true in radar world - my 1 gazillion watt hunk of junk that may be the size of a house will see you like the eye of sauron against ur puny fancy AESA modular radar of 2 watts.

People often do not know one simple detail about stealth aircraft : Stealth aircraft are amazing at being stealth against OTHER aircrafts. They are rather shit at being all spectrum stealth and are actually NOT stealth to low band weather radars.
Yes, its low resolution but its still 'i see your fancy f22' if i got a simple weather radar around. Yes, thats just how the science works out and its not that hard to get weather radars integrated into static defence for anti air batteries to spot stealth from ground.

I mean, there MUST be a reason why despite stealth aircraft being around in service for 20 years now, its never been used to directly bomb a country with significant air defences, most notabl Iran.
Israel going through all the trouble of flying right to the edge of Iranian airspace with their F35s, lobbing bombs and facking off, instead of ENTERING the air space is the key story of stealth aircrafts : its good engaging non stealth aircrafts but its ability to penetrate enemy air space with significiant ground radar assets is questionable.

Well, i never watched harry potter, but i got your point. Back in college i went crazy solving KCL, KVL with elecronic circuits.
> The newer GaN (Gallium Nitride) based antennas are said to have far lower wattage consumption. There is another paramenter called GAIN measured in Decibels which also indicate power & function of the antenna.
> I also wondered since long that weather radars & remote sensing sats might be able to detect the jet wake. This idea was shown in Hollywood movie "Under Siege 2: dark territory" (1995) where a particle-beam sat tracks F-117s.



But low band means lower frequency or higher wavelength, i googled & found it to be C band, adjacant to x band in spectrum. IDK if X band can perform same function.


Such radar might be difficult to fit in a stealth jet bcoz it is almost same size as of fighter radar. They're installed in all civil jets:

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

we really need tejas MK1A since about 1/4 of Chinese fighters are old mig21s and jh7 fighter bombers tejas will be needed in large nos to counter these and we will also need tejas for countering paki jf17s.
chinkis also operate about 600 j10s, though j10s are bigger their payload capacity is limited to only 5500kg tejasMK2 can easily take on these jets
china also have like 700 flankers, 225 of these are su27 for now we have our mirage 2000s, mig29s and mig29ks in this category(total comes around 160) , getting more used mirage 2000s should be a priority
more MKI squadrons will be needed for sure, if possible we should procure at least 3-4 squadrons more
to keep chinki flankers in check.

where did u get 600 j10 numbers?? chinese hv near 300-400 j10....yes tejas is needed as primary CAP (combat air petroling) mission role near borders. but i dont agree to buy additional 97 tejas mark 1a, if we will successfull to make tejas mark 2 production ready near 2028-29.....83 tejas deal had competition date near 2028, so u can take 1-2 year dealy now due to engine. so when we hv tejas mark 2 available, i dont think we should buy more inferior aircraft (tejas mark 1a). tejas mark 2 will be near j10 nd rafale capabilities (except range nd weapon load capabilities). so its best to make near 300 of them, instead of additional 97 tejas mark 1a.
so best option for us, untill 2035 (when i think AMCA will be production ready):-
1:- older su 30 mki nd upgraded su 30 mki = 300 fighters (16 squads).
2:- tejas mark 1/1a (should be upgraded in tejas mark 1a level) = 20+83 = 123 fighters (6 squads).
3:- rafale = 36 (2 squads).
4:- tejas mark 2 = 300 (16 squads)
5:- su 57 = 110 (6 squads)
total = 300+123+36+300+110
= 869 fighters or 46 squads.
42 squad requirements was near 2000 year. now we should hv near 52 squads to even challenge chinese (leave two front war aside).
that many aircraft only possible if we hv 32 aircraft per year production rate.
Algeria bought their 14 su 57 in 2 billion dollars. so we can buy 112 su 57 in 16 billion dollars. same amount, which we want to buy 114 rafale in MRFA. although 114 rafale will definitely cost us more than 20 billion dollars.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

It's over for Imported AirForce . There's nothing we can do , 4 th largest economy my a$$ ! Even if India becomes 2nd largest economy we'll still be 50yrs behind in defence.

50 years behind....so that mean chinese hv everything we hv in defence near 1974.
its funny why we stupid indian cry everwhere nd blaming government, drdo etc... u guys compairing a 18 trillion dollar chinese economy capabilities with 4 trillion dollar indian economy capabilities. these gdp size determine a country tax, budget etc. u should compaire chinese when they r near 3 trillion dollar economy (now due to inflation etc our 4 trillion dollar is equal to them). what was their defense capabilities than?? india can "starting" to become independent in defense etc, when we hv 10 trillion economy nd near 170 billion dollar defense budget. u should be thankful, what our capabilities even at 4 trillion dollar gdp nd 76 trillion dollar defense budget. live in reality.

 

[darkflame]

where did u get 600 j10 numbers?? chinese hv near 300-400 j10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_People's_Liberation_Army_aircraft

Algeria bought their 14 su 57 in 2 billion dollars. so we can buy 112 su 57 in 16 billion dollars. same amount, which we want to buy 114 rafale in MRFA. although 114 rafale will definitely cost us more than 20 billion dollars.

again i will copy paste my previous post

Do Russians even have a a2a missile for su57, either way against j20 su57 has no chance, not only j20 has a lower rcs, it also probably have a better radar, chinkis also have devloped better a2a missiles then russia, su57 will just get bullied by j20.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View attachment 19848

It is a diagram by a Russian named "Paralay". I guess he is also an enthusiast. He frequently makes blueprint sketches like this. It has become almost like his signature.

 

[Ayan Barat]

In case someone is thinking to move it to different thread, there're nuances to discuss it here too. Ultimately it's IAF that has to deal with it.

Definitely a sniper-bomber...Middle engine will stay at high-AoA of dogfight, with that too intake, but will be very stealthy in a level flight!

I'm still bit confused about the dorsal air intake.
The two lateral ones are clearly designed for minimum RCS with maximum unrestricted air-flow (F-22), can easily sustain upto Mach 2.5. But then there's the dorsal intake; not sufficiently big for Increased air-flow and having DSI, pretty much Mach 1.5 type set-up.

There's definitely something more going on with that intake than we can see with our eyes. It can be some kind of cold air mixing system to lower the IR signature. It can be an APU to generator more internal power. Or all three intake merge into one before entering the engine and they're trifurcated into three only to make way for a large IWB on the fourth side.

But this is intriguing

View attachment 19848

I've already mentioned it's IWB capabilities

Now coming to the part where I think this new design really shines

But now with this (obviously pretty inaccurate) artwork we can really see the implications of this for us.

Up until now we used to have two crown jewels in our air-force inventory. One was the SPECTRA but the problem with that is that it's just 36 planes. And the other was this

A magazine depth of 12 missiles; even if the pK is reduced to just 0.3 then also you'd be taking 3-4 bogies with each Su-30MkIs.

But this new J-36 (as of now) completely negates this advantage of ours because now it can carry BVR-AAMs in numbers similar to Su-30MkI but with the frontal RCS of almost F-35s. If used properly in a pure Air Dominance role then these things can massacre enemy air-forces in numbers.

So as of now (just for a perspective, they aren't attacking anytime soon) the best defence we're left with are those 36 Rafales with SPECTRA and whatever protection is provided by those Israeli jamming pods.

 

[Patriots]

My 2 paisa suggestions....
Dill ko thandak milegi....

1. Upgrade all ioc to mk1a if possible foc to mk1a( foc s are much closer to mk1a though)
2 . Fast track su 30 upgradtion
3. Increase tejas mk1a production rate ( though engine is not available for now , but as much as airframes must be produced and once engine is available , should be the integration and other certification s be done quickly)
4. Mig 29 ulagration with aesa radar and Astra
5. M2000 integration with Astra ( as both mig29 and m200 will be there beyond 2035)
6 . Fast track the lca mk2 development , if possible. ...order as much as mk2 in ioc)
7. Fast track amca development
8. Fast track that jv with foreign oem for 110 kn engine
9. Certify kaveri with after burner ..
10. Fast track Ghatak ucav
11. Cats warior should be inducted
12.induct as much as Sam systems you can ( mrsam in production , akash ng in user trials , qrsam in production , vlsrsam in trial )
13. Opposition should portrait the low squardon strength of iaf an large issue in upcoming elections ....

14. Last option ....any jets from foreign OEMs will take atleast 4 years to be inducted .....
Better buy 2 nd hand jets, ...if you get in cheaper prices as m2000 mig 29s .f16s ..will be retired .....there is no option ....
Sooner or later India air force is going to be a airforce of oldies.....

 

[Ayan Barat]

Pakis will have 3 squadrons of stealth fighter by 2030. (Pakis have curtailed planned JF-17 BLK3 numbers realizing the dawn of a new era).

It's just usual Dhoti Shivering of Pakistan getting stealth fighter, we shouldn't waste time on them. One, they're too insignificant for our attention and two, comparison with them would give us a false sense of security. Even if they get 7th gen fighter then too they won't become an adversary for us; they've always been a security headache and they'll keep being that only.

Pakistanis are doomed because of their geography; a thin strip of land that shares a very long land border with India. You don't even need to use a single IAF or IN asset to deal with them; ground forces itself would be enough to neutralize not just their ground forces but even their air-force and navy. [obviously we aren't including the nuclear factor]

BrahMos, Prithvi, Shaurya, Pralay, Prahaar, LR-AShM...you've so many things that can be used to target pretty much every airbase, naval station, C&C centres; all from deep inside India. Also I've included just supersonic missiles and ballistic missiles as they've abysmal defences against these; include Nirbhay and the number goes through the roof. Moreover all of these are tactical weapons that we can use in numbers unlike say strategic weapons like Agni which would always be limited.

We don't have this advantage with us for China. They outrange our tactical weapons, they've good counter to our Ballistic Missiles (HQ-19), they have multiple platforms that're still unchallenged by us (J-20, J-35, YJ-21) and perhaps most importantly, they out match us in magazine depth (300+ J-20s).

 

[E-195]

Do Russians even have a a2a missile for su57, either way against j20 su57 has no chance, not only j20 has a lower rcs, it also probably have a better radar, chinkis also have devloped better a2a missiles then russia, su57 will just get bullied by j20.

you over estimate the Chinese, J-20 is crap, the western observers rate it higher not because it is better, but because is been build in higher numbers, only that The Chinese love propaganda, but in real war the J-20 will be shot down

 

[vampyrbladez]

I'm still bit confused about the dorsal air intake.
The two lateral ones are clearly designed for minimum RCS with maximum unrestricted air-flow (F-22), can easily sustain upto Mach 2.5. But then there's the dorsal intake; not sufficiently big for Increased air-flow and having DSI, pretty much Mach 1.5 type set-up.

Theory 1 :

China wants to achieve super cruise (Mach 1.5) on a heavy fighter bomber aircraft.

To increase range and endurance, the other two engines can be pulled down to minimal and no afterburners and allow the plane to conserve fuel.

DSI limits speed to ~ Mach 1.6 and this is perfect for a strike mission in Guam or Hawai or IAF forward based airfields in Ladakh.

Theory 2 :

China is using jugaad to get a variable cycle engine configuration without actually making an engine like the XA 102/103.

Per the theory of variable cycle engines, to achieve low bypass for supersonic flight, the valves in the bypass stream are closed to restrict flow. To achieve efficient subsonic flight, the bypass is increased to its maximum value by opening the valves.

The Chinese are using a Low-High-Low bypass configuration for their 3 engines which would explain the placement of the DSI for the middle one.

 

[Patriots]

It's just usual Dhoti Shivering of Pakistan getting stealth fighter, we shouldn't waste time on them. One, they're too insignificant for our attention and two, comparison with them would give us a false sense of security. Even if they get 7th gen fighter then too they won't become an adversary for us; they've always been a security headache and they'll keep being that only.

Pakistanis are doomed because of their geography; a thin strip of land that shares a very long land border with India. You don't even need to use a single IAF or IN asset to deal with them; ground forces itself would be enough to neutralize not just their ground forces but even their air-force and navy. [obviously we aren't including the nuclear factor]
View attachment 19864
BrahMos, Prithvi, Shaurya, Pralay, Prahaar, LR-AShM...you've so many things that can be used to target pretty much every airbase, naval station, C&C centres; all from deep inside India. Also I've included just supersonic missiles and ballistic missiles as they've abysmal defences against these; include Nirbhay and the number goes through the roof. Moreover all of these are tactical weapons that we can use in numbers unlike say strategic weapons like Agni which would always be limited.

We don't have this advantage with us for China. They outrange our tactical weapons, they've good counter to our Ballistic Missiles (HQ-19), they have multiple platforms that're still unchallenged by us (J-20, J-35, YJ-21) and perhaps most importantly, they out match us in magazine depth (300+ J-20s).

Pafs won't be a threat ...any day..because of their low strength ...but if they gets more j10 or ...any chineese 5th gen fighters ...still it will be a headache ..for sure because in case if any limited skirmish ,they will use the best they have ....and out come will be definitely in their favour ...

 

[Brood Father]

My 2 cents , but investing now in MRFA would be the biggest blunder IAF can do in knee jerk reaction
We should focus now in Tejas Mk2 and Orca ..
AMCA should be accelerated and should be completed in war footing
And get indigenous engine sorted even if it means to give Safran / Rolls Royace the fortune ..

 

[shiphone]

where did u get 600 j10 numbers?? chinese hv near 300-400 j10...

LOL...PLAAF/NAF used to have 10 combat units of J10/10A/10S/10AH/10SH which is around 300 jets...then came the 56 J10Bs and more than 270 J10Cs and unknown number of new batch of J10Ss ...nowadays, quite some J10A/Ss were reassigned to the Flying Academies ; PLANAF also handed over all J10s to the air force. the most of J10 combat units are operating J10B/C and the combat unit quantity is more than 13(3 more units owns some, but they are models mixed units ). A 'Brigade level' Combat unit normally owns around 40 fighters. btw the August 1st aerobatic team has 12 Special varient J10s of their own.

in sum, around 650 all varients of J10s were manufactured for PLAAF and NAF(24 no.). but the J10C volume production for the air force is over... only export order will proceed...

-----------------------
btw , so called 1/4 of PLAAF fleet are J7s is another joke and obviously IAF won't face any PLAAF J-7s in future. nearly 300 no. of J-7 were manufactured around early this century ... a J-7 unit could have 50-60 jets nowadays so the spare parts are sufficient....lol. ..these units are deployed in secondary direction for training.

PLAAF's next mass production model is J-35A ... it's around the coner, it will replace the remaining J-7s and early varient of J10s...and JH-7 is an attacker, so it is something else.
n

 

[Brood Father]

It's just usual Dhoti Shivering of Pakistan getting stealth fighter, we shouldn't waste time on them. One, they're too insignificant for our attention and two, comparison with them would give us a false sense of security. Even if they get 7th gen fighter then too they won't become an adversary for us; they've always been a security headache and they'll keep being that only.

Pakistanis are doomed because of their geography; a thin strip of land that shares a very long land border with India. You don't even need to use a single IAF or IN asset to deal with them; ground forces itself would be enough to neutralize not just their ground forces but even their air-force and navy. [obviously we aren't including the nuclear factor]
View attachment 19864
BrahMos, Prithvi, Shaurya, Pralay, Prahaar, LR-AShM...you've so many things that can be used to target pretty much every airbase, naval station, C&C centres; all from deep inside India. Also I've included just supersonic missiles and ballistic missiles as they've abysmal defences against these; include Nirbhay and the number goes through the roof. Moreover all of these are tactical weapons that we can use in numbers unlike say strategic weapons like Agni which would always be limited.

We don't have this advantage with us for China. They outrange our tactical weapons, they've good counter to our Ballistic Missiles (HQ-19), they have multiple platforms that're still unchallenged by us (J-20, J-35, YJ-21) and perhaps most importantly, they out match us in magazine depth (300+ J-20s).

Lol , I don't know why people panicking over pakis getting fifth gen
We can target their infrastructure from low cost missiles and fifth gen requires expensive maintenance and upgrade , so its good that they will have to flush their already limited money in maintaining these white elephants

Don't fucking panic and don't do knee jerk reaction . Learn from china and invest in indigenous program

 

[ArjunMK1A]

It's just usual Dhoti Shivering of Pakistan getting stealth fighter, we shouldn't waste time on them. One, they're too insignificant for our attention and two, comparison with them would give us a false sense of security. Even if they get 7th gen fighter then too they won't become an adversary for us; they've always been a security headache and they'll keep being that only.

Pakistanis are doomed because of their geography; a thin strip of land that shares a very long land border with India. You don't even need to use a single IAF or IN asset to deal with them; ground forces itself would be enough to neutralize not just their ground forces but even their air-force and navy. [obviously we aren't including the nuclear factor]
View attachment 19864
BrahMos, Prithvi, Shaurya, Pralay, Prahaar, LR-AShM...you've so many things that can be used to target pretty much every airbase, naval station, C&C centres; all from deep inside India. Also I've included just supersonic missiles and ballistic missiles as they've abysmal defences against these; include Nirbhay and the number goes through the roof. Moreover all of these are tactical weapons that we can use in numbers unlike say strategic weapons like Agni which would always be limited.

We don't have this advantage with us for China. They outrange our tactical weapons, they've good counter to our Ballistic Missiles (HQ-19), they have multiple platforms that're still unchallenged by us (J-20, J-35, YJ-21) and perhaps most importantly, they out match us in magazine depth (300+ J-20s).

Agreed.

We should arm ourselves based on the threat from China. Automatically then we will have edge over pakis and beedis since they may be potentional nuisance.

Also as stated their geography is screwed up so we can cut them down as we done in 71.

As for China is concerned we need to plan in long term basis. Eg. 5years, 10 years.

If we go with piecemeal emergency procurement. Then we can say goodbye.

 

[vampyrbladez]

My 2 cents , but investing now in MRFA would be the biggest blunder IAF can do in knee jerk reaction
We should focus now in Tejas Mk2 and Orca ..
AMCA should be accelerated and should be completed in war footing
And get indigenous engine sorted even if it means to give Safran / Rolls Royace the fortune ..

There will be no MRFA. IAF did not jointly negotiate with IN for more Rafales for this very reason.

The goal is simple for IAF. Beg, borrow and steal for F 35. They have made up their mind for around 40 F 35.

From 2023 :

The United States, which is selective about which countries it sells the F-35 to, has not made it clear whether they have offered the jet to India — nor has the Indian Air Force said anything official about it.

But Rear Admiral Michael L. Baker, defense attache at the U.S. embassy in India, said New Delhi was in the "very early stages" of considering whether it wanted the plane.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/f35-fighter-jets-aero-india-aviation-show-us-russia-weapons/

 

[shiphone]

Up until now we used to have two crown jewels in our air-force inventory. One was the SPECTRA but the problem with that is that it's just 36 planes. And the other was this
View attachment 19861
A magazine depth of 12 missiles; even if the pK is reduced to just 0.3 then also you'd be taking 3-4 bogies with each Su-30MkIs.

But this new J-36 (as of now) completely negates this advantage of ours because now it can carry BVR-AAMs in numbers similar to Su-30MkI but with the frontal RCS of almost F-35s. If used properly in a pure Air Dominance role then these things can massacre enemy air-forces in numbers.

So as of now (just for a perspective, they aren't attacking anytime soon) the best defence we're left with are those 36 Rafales with SPECTRA and whatever protection is provided by those Israeli jamming pods.

??? never

PL17+PL15+PL12+PL10

and

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the export varient of fin foldable NEW PL15 AAM which fits for the Inner Weapon Bay was displayed last month...obviousely it is the matched option for the FC-31/J-35AE export...