Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[randombully]

Numerical simulation of RCS for carrier electronic warfare airplanes

This paper studies the radar cross section (RCS) of carrier electronic warfare airplanes. Under the typical naval operations section, the mathematical…

www.sciencedirect.com

When the radar band is X, the detection distance of Model A under electronic jamming is reduced by 60.97% compared with the distance under no electronic jamming. The detection distance of Model B under electronic jamming is reduced by 58.20% compared with the distance under no electronic jamming.

Power of EW, or as the French call it "active stealth"

It's a chinese paper.
Model A is US navy fa18 growler, Model B is su33 EW varient

 

[vampyrbladez]

With AMCA prospectively not reaching FOC until some time in the 2040's, India is contemplating buying Su-57. This article suggests that Su-57 has a long way to go before it, too, will be fully developed. In view of what it says, should India be thinking of buying the Su-57?

From rubles to rubble: The true cost of fielding Su-57 Felon

The initial cost estimates for the Su-57 have been a matter of much speculation and debate. Early figures suggested a unit cost hovering around $35-$50 million.

bulgarianmilitary.com

Too tired to type all of this again.

Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

 

[Migflug]

These mirages have just been upgraded that too at almost 50 million each !

Shows the great foresight of imported air force!!

 

[E-195]

So looks like plaaf will still buy them.

I will tell you the first rule of Geopolitics an enemy will not sell you weapons, if you do not get J-35s in India and Pakistan gets it then you know. then worry, usually an enemy will sell you crap, or do not sell you anything.

A friendly nation will share technology, the more they share the more they are your friends.

A joint program means an ally, example Eurofighter or harrier.


In Latin America our best friend is now France and to some degree Israel, the USA is ally and enemy at the same time, Russia a potential ally, China is not our friend since they do not really share technology, and India a potential ally.

Remember that when you buy weapons

 

[E-195]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekEV_w2Dhmk

 

[E-195]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTjj9ANMRZE

 

[Corvus Splendens]

HAL is supposed to be in mission mode with a tiny order book and zero funds ?

Overheard in Aero India: IAF chief AP Singh says 'not confident of HAL, it's not in mission mode'

At a time when the spotlight is on state-run HAL due to its slow pace of manufacturing Tejas fighters, Air Chief Marshal Singh's candid remarks were recorded by a YouTube channel.

theprint.in

 

[randombully]

HAL is supposed to be in mission mode with a tiny order book and zero funds ?
View attachment 24937
View attachment 24938

Overheard in Aero India: IAF chief AP Singh says 'not confident of HAL, it's not in mission mode'

At a time when the spotlight is on state-run HAL due to its slow pace of manufacturing Tejas fighters, Air Chief Marshal Singh's candid remarks were recorded by a YouTube channel.

theprint.in

87 tejas ain't tiny

 

[Nutcracker]

87 tejas ain't tiny

Only 8 were planned to deliver in first year. HAL isn't as far as these importkhor cabal is mudslinging them to be. Does he have balls to go to Rosboronexport counter and tell media how unhappy he is about s400 delay.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Tangential question

A person at that hierarchy in IAF has immense power and influence. He could have roped in MoD, PMO, started an official investigation in delays, heck could have even fired some high ranking Babus in HAL months ago, because even we know about the delays since months and they're the customer so definitely they would have known it for longer but still complaining to low level officers at an Air Show.

Why Sir!?

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

Tangential question

A person at that hierarchy in IAF has immense power and influence. He could have roped in MoD, PMO, started an official investigation in delays, heck could have even fired some high ranking Babus in HAL months ago, because even we know about the delays since months and they're the customer so definitely they would have known it for longer but still complaining to low level officers at an Air Show.

Why Sir!?

First of all we need to raise a nationwide protest against the BABUCULTURE BASTURD IAS bureaucracy from getting entry into CRUCIAL DEPARTMENTS/ MINISTRIES OF GOVT. like DEFENCE, SPACE, CYBERSPACE, IT & TELECOM etc...we need TECHNOCRATS there FROM DIFFERENT FIELDS HAVING EXPERTISE....a BUSTURD IAS BABU having B.A. degree with Honours in HISTORY/PHILOSOPHY/LITERATURE etc. has no space in such departments....we, the common people, are glorifying these IAS BABUS shamelessly....such people are main reason behind DELAYED WORK PROGRESS/ NO PROPER PLANNING of public sectors like HAL/ DRDO/ NAL/ even Ministry of Defence.

 

[Charlie]

Keep on getting new dates then, if you think anything will change in PSU it will not, now I not blaming the talent, most of the guys are very talented and will be swooped up by private industry but the culture in there is just not changing.

If you think TEJAS mk1 is just being delayed because of GE, then they are taking you for a ride, it’s one of the problems not the only problem.

Well of course all blame is not on PSU and there is user issues as well but you have to start from somewhere.

kickbacks are everywhere in some form or other you just need to equip Indian private industry enough to do that for generals to prefer them.

This is something no one will say openly but will end up happening

As I said before tejas is not being delayed just because of GE engine.

Keep blaming the airforce calling it an import airforce, but reality is quite different, we need a competitive system integrator from the private sector and should be on cost + profit bases like f35 contract

Let them build the same plane rather then allowing HAL to keep adding assembly lines.


View: https://youtu.be/CE1nIop1zFc?si=7plbywYgNA5ldJ4H

 

[randombully]

As I said before tejas is not being delayed just because of GE engine.

Keep blaming the airforce calling it an import airforce, but reality is quite different, we need a competitive system integrator from the private sector and should be on cost + profit bases like f35 contract

Let them build the same plane rather then allowing HAL to keep adding assembly lines.


View: https://youtu.be/CE1nIop1zFc?si=7plbywYgNA5ldJ4H

Hal does final assembly, lots of components including all the sections of fuselage are biult by "private"subcontractors of HAL

 

[bruno]

Can you help me to understand what does he means by Tejas MK1A can be called like that only by name and not my capability?
He talked about stuff with systems in the video, but not sure to understand everything... Is he talking about integration issue ? Like it's not a matter of hardware only but about integration and software ?

 

[ezsasa]

As I said before tejas is not being delayed just because of GE engine.

Keep blaming the airforce calling it an import airforce, but reality is quite different, we need a competitive system integrator from the private sector and should be on cost + profit bases like f35 contract

Let them build the same plane rather then allowing HAL to keep adding assembly lines.


View: https://youtu.be/CE1nIop1zFc?si=7plbywYgNA5ldJ4H

every time a new piece of information or news or scenario comes up, theoretical bulldozing the existing fundamentals can't be the premise of the discourse.

as things stands today, even private sector cannot fulfil air chief's delivery schedule, simply because a lot of things are happening in parallel. there are things happening literally for the first time that haven't happened before in this country. it would be stupid of any private company, to take up aircraft integration without the completion of design, integration and certification of all components and weapon systems.

let's see what happens with tata's C-295 integration, obviously we all want them to succeed. their success in that deal would mean the country will be one step closer to a private company taking up aircraft assembly/integration.

just like forces prefer "proven technologies", private companies prefer to bet on stabilised and proven business models because they have shareholders to answer to.

this is just the first decade of private companies getting to take on large contracts, let's not be hasty to assume we the fanboys know all the variables that are in play.

 

[Ayan Barat]

This news has already made to the top headlines of major news sites. In coming days this IAF Vs HAL is only going to get messier with everyone from YouTubers to FanBois to Brats everyone jumping to it.

So, in case you want an unbiased opinion about who's really at faults for this Tejas debacle then consult this masterpiece of mine

A

Post in thread 'DRDO and PSUs'

Jan 14, 2025

Lagta hai ki Major Arya ka dimaag satak gaya hai.

I've decided to assemble a team of people...

They called me a madman

Summarising our venerated MIC real quick...

• Ayan Barat

• 
• 
• 

 

[TumAapHum]

Its time GoI get their head outta their asx and order Su-57. HAL can transition from Su-30 to FGFA production while we let ADA/DODO do their thing with private production partners and target a more manageable 2050+ introduction timeline for AMCA, just in time for LCA replacement. LMAO!!

 

[Charlie]

every time a new piece of information or news or scenario comes up, theoretical bulldozing the existing fundamentals can't be the premise of the discourse.

as things stands today, even private sector cannot fulfil air chief's delivery schedule, simply because a lot of things are happening in parallel. there are things happening literally for the first time that haven't happened before in this country. it would be stupid of any private company, to take up aircraft integration without the completion of design, integration and certification of all components and weapon systems.

let's see what happens with tata's C-295 integration, obviously we all want them to succeed. their success in that deal would mean the country will be one step closer to a private company taking up aircraft assembly/integration.

just like forces prefer "proven technologies", private companies prefer to bet on stabilised and proven business models because they have shareholders to answer to.

this is just the first decade of private companies getting to take on large contracts, let's not be hasty to assume we the fanboys know all the variables that are in play.

Well I can tell right now it’s unfair you give psu 60 years to setup and still support them when they don’t deliver but use a different yard stick for private industry. Give them some time to mature they won’t take even 1\4 of the time.

If you are expecting private firms to put their own money, then it’s never gonna happen, we need private defence contractors before defence companies as of now.

We need our L3 Harris, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin before wishing for Anduril.

Why do you think mmrca airforce is keen on, getting fighter is one thing but the airforce solves one more issue that’s the monopoly of the HAL.

I believe in indigenous system as well but not the inefficiency.

C295 will progress well, as you said they have to respond to shareholders,

Read between the lines when airforce people talk about.

 

[ezsasa]

Well I can tell right now it’s unfair you give psu 60 years to setup and still support them when they don’t deliver but use a different yard stick for private industry. Give them some time to mature they won’t take even 1\4 of the time.

If you are expecting private firms to put their own money, then it’s never gonna happen, we need private defence contractors before defence companies as of now.

We need our L3 Harris, Raytheon and Lockheed Martin before wishing for Anduril.

Why do you think mmrca airforce is keen on, getting fighter is one thing but the airforce solves one more issue that’s the monopoly of the HAL.

I believe in indigenous system as well but not the inefficiency.

C295 will progress well, as you said they have to respond to shareholders,

Read between the lines when airforce people talk about.

lockheed is 100 years old
martin is 60+ years old
raytheon is 100+ years old
harris is 130 years old

they too had their share of ups and downs during this journey.

murica as a country became private first, before they went public. they got private toll roads, railways, and telephone companies before their govt even intervened.

India story is very different from murican story, for us everything is gormint first and private business story is just 30 years old. safe to say Indian solution to this problem will not be same as murica's giant defence contractors.

many of the folks who used to get angry when air India was being managed by gormint and talked as if privatisation will solve all the probems, are on radio silence after TATA's tookover and bad service is continuing. these things happen, not everything goes according to plan.

my point is simply this, just keep an open mind as to which way this industry will evolve. we have our entire lifetimes to cheer for a good outcome as spectators.

 

[Azaad]

lockheed is 100 years old
martin is 60+ years old
raytheon is 100+ years old
harris is 130 years old

they too had their share of ups and downs during this journey.

murica as a country became private first, before they went public. they got private toll roads, railways, and telephone companies before their govt even intervened.

India story is very different from murican story, for us everything is gormint first and private business story is just 30 years old. safe to say Indian solution to this problem will not be same as murica's giant defence contractors.

many of the folks who used to get angry when air India was being managed by gormint and talked as if privatisation will solve all the probems, are on radio silence after TATA's tookover and bad service is continuing. these things happen, not everything goes according to plan.

my point is simply this, just keep an open mind as to which way this industry will evolve. we have our entire lifetimes to cheer for a good outcome as spectators.

Just to add my 2 cents , I'm unaware as to how many here have been involved with a new product launch right from conceptualization to realisation to marketing & creating new distribution / handling existing distribution networks to after sales service.

I've skipped a lot of steps in between but the best of cos who've spent a lifetime in this biz get things wrong & at times disastrously wrong. Don't believe me ? Look at the F-35 project.

As a French member in Strat Front put it , if France were to run it like the US did , France would impeach the President apart from guillotining a whole host of ministers bureaucracy & top generals before going bankrupt . It's a text book case of how not to run a project.

This is the first time HAL is involved in building a Fighter Aircraft NOT from SKD & CKD kits followed by incremental indigenization but from ground up which means setting up the entire eco system & then fine tuning it in association with their vendors mostly MSMEs , DRDO / ADA & the IAF. To top it all they're answerable not only to the MoD & thru it to the GoI & parliamentary oversight but have the CAG on their back too .

The last part is important as I'm given to understand it was the tendering process of a few LRUs which held back deliveries of the committed qty of the Mk-1a's. Latest news reports like for instance tweets by Snehesh Alex Philip of The misPrint suggests deliveries have been pushed back to the last quarter of this year . Can't vouch for its veracity.

Finally , if you want results , get the GoI to break up HAL in 3-4 cos with a charter to each such company on their Scope of Activities & privatise all its constitutents. Otherwise be prepared for more of the same.

As it is we're seeing Airbus bring in a 50 year old product the H- 125 to India to test the waters under the MII program following which you can expect them to set up the entire mfg line here & capitalise on the demand here whereas LUH is still being certified & HAL isn't too bothered about the prospect of losing out on the domestic commercial market for it has its plate full building everything from the RUAV to AMCA .

Ditto for our DPSU shipyards where after throwing open the sector , you can expect players from the Pvt Sector who've nothing to do with shipping till date to set up JVs with the Koreans & Japanese to take advantage of all the sops GoI has to offer.