Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

RWS/TWS/STT
Buddy, I also know all the jargons of different tracking mode in a radar.

Infact you talked about burn through
The second point is that "burn through" is a real thing in electronic warfare
And here I'd mentioned the same thing
3. "Burn-Through":
ECM pods are designed to jam radars atleast hundred kilometres away so they need to put in a lot of power to compensate for things like attention. A side-effect of this is the phenomenon called Burn-Through...when the missile closes in to within a certain range, the noise-to-signal ratio increases, making the jammer more vulnerable as its location becomes more apparent.
Every single day we're improving the SWaP of systems. Every single day somewhere someone is getting closer in miniaturising something. Each day we're finding new ways to do the work of humans using machines.
IMG_20241229_125414.webp
IMG_20241229_125657.webp
IMG_20241229_125559.webp
IMG_20241229_125501.webp
Same is for AWACS too; no matter how much you and I argue on its efficacy, throw jargon to prove our superiority in knowledge...it's just a matter time before we see more and UAV based systems appearing everywhere. It has already happened in other arenas, it'll happen in AWACS too.
Mark my words

It's unfortunate that we as a nation, as an air-force, as a MIC have failed to catch this train in time but this doesn't mean others are also lagging behind.
The writing's on the wall.
 
It's better to be slaves rather die in war
Being slaves will ensure our survival atleast
NOT that sure: do slaves have choice between "be slaves & stay alive" and "die in war"?
How many times you see slaves-owners, if war did happen, die before slaves? Let alone it's these owners provoke the war.
Check Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam... ...
 
And coming to slaves we are slaves in every other thing out there, entire IT industry stands on their mercy, we are net importer of most of the things, it's our bad luck that we are enemy with a country without whom our industries and market can't survive i.e china, we are dependent on every major foreign country for our defence and sadly we are interested to increase dependency
Pardon me if I sound like arguing for sake of argue (I'm NOT!!).
But there is still difference in extent.
There are more countries also counting on China's market & industries. But not necessarily they turn to "slaves". Cases can be Japan, Australia, Vietnam, quite Europe countries, and even USA.
Simply putting "we have NO choice but can only choose 'slave' or 'die'" is just another way giving up seeking solutions.
- I admit: I'm NOT that qualified to suggest other alternatives. I'm simply refusing to accept that dilemma (no other alternatives).
-- Somehow off topic. Mod please feel free to remove this.
 
Okay so China created history by flying not one but two sixth gen fighter aircraft in public for the first time. IDK how our IAF sleeps peacefully at night after witnessing this much progress from an adversary.
TBH: IAF & HAL & MoD (incl DRDO) can sleep peacefully at night won't bother me.
It's those (the one?) who assign heads of these institutes that can sleep peacefully bothers me, truly...

Many people insist to urgently fund every program. I want to add: roll some heads, please, please, please... (at least show that you know the situation & you care!!)
 
Have you checked the news recently?


View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1873000117315481885


View: https://x.com/DrSJaishankar/status/1872802352178360583

H.R.4312 - To enhance the eligibility of India for Foreign Military Sales and exports under the Arms Export Control Act.





With a Republican majority in US House, Senate and a Republican President, I expect this to go through if India makes a push for F 35.

Will only believe this when i hear something official
Even then is it possible for contract to be signed and few deliveries to happen before Trump term is over?

Also usually Pentagon though powerless is "sweet" towards us but even they won't be comfortable because "India may steal F35 technology", so IDK what T&C will be applied to us for sale, doubt GoI will accept irrespective of Air Marshol tantrums.
 
Will only believe this when i hear something official
Even then is it possible for contract to be signed and few deliveries to happen before Trump term is over?

Also usually Pentagon though powerless is "sweet" towards us but even they won't be comfortable because "India may steal F35 technology", so IDK what T&C will be applied to us for sale, doubt GoI will accept irrespective of Air Marshol tantrums.

Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.
 
In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

Thanks for providing timeline for both
Also hope somebody drills the bolded into the heads of decision makers in GoI as compared to the panik and lies peddled by dalals now about (((stop gap imports))) which won't appear before 2030 anyway
 
The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage.
Not countering you in any way, just adding a point.

If indeed it's acquired then it'd be most probably a stop-gap measure to counter Chinese and (especially) Pakistani stealth jets. So we can assume that A2A should be the priority instead of A2G. And for A2A we already have AIM-132 and Meteor that we can fire without asking USA everytime before pulling the trigger.

Obviously strings would be attached because it's USA (INS Jalashwa) but atleast in pure air-dominance things won't be that bleak.
 
Not countering you in any way, just adding a point.

If indeed it's acquired then it'd be most probably a stop-gap measure to counter Chinese and (especially) Pakistani stealth jets. So we can assume that A2A should be the priority instead of A2G. And for A2A we already have AIM-132 and Meteor that we can fire without asking USA everytime before pulling the trigger.

Obviously strings would be attached because it's USA (INS Jalashwa) but atleast in pure air-dominance things won't be that bleak.
That's a fair point however we are talking about integrating Meteor (MBDA - UK/EU) and AIM 132 (MBDA - UK) onto an F 35 (US).

UK and Italy are working on integrating the AIM 132 and Meteor onto the F 35 by 2030 which means that India won't have the same option when signing a prospective deal in 2026-2027.

The Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning should receive additional UK-specific weapons “by the end of the decade”, the government said on 16 January.

Answering questions in the House of Commons, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence (MoD) James Cartlidge said that, with the MBDA AIM-132 Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the RTX Paveway 4 precision-guided bomb already carried by the Lightning, the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) and the Selected Precision Effects At Range (SPEAR) 3 air-to-surface munition will be available by 2030.

https://www.janes.com/osint-insight...e/f-35-to-get-meteor-spear-3-by-end-of-decade

Pakistan's J 35 will reach them in 2027 at the earliest (2-3 aircraft) and won't be combat capable until 2029-2030 because it's a J 31 derivative and you need supporting infrastructure to allow at least 1 squadron to have some kind of IOC capability.

It should never have been this close and we can thank IAF's 20 year old obsession with MMRCA/MRFA for this outcome.
 
The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage.

MBDA ASRAAM(Our NGCCM) has already been integrated... integration of Meteor is expected within 3 years.

We can't trust ADA-HAL timelines.

Mass produce MK2 which is still on paper? Even if GOI intends to... the mass production will begin when China will begin Inducting J-XX.

The additional 97 MK1A is on the path of cancelation.

F-35 is getting manufactured at 150/yr rate... and additional facilities are also coming up.
 
MBDA ASRAAM(Our NGCCM) has already been integrated... integration of Meteor is expected within 3 years.

We can't trust ADA-HAL timelines.

Mass produce MK2 which is still on paper? Even if GOI intends to... the mass production will begin when China will begin Inducting J-XX.

The additional 97 MK1A is on the path of cancelation.

F-35 is getting manufactured at 150/yr rate... and additional facilities are also coming up.
Lol, the 97 Tejas Mk1A isn't going to be cancelled.
Get a grip on your delusions.
The prototype of Tejas Mk2 is a work in progress, and any MRFA jet isn't going to come any sooner.
 
MBDA ASRAAM(Our NGCCM) has already been integrated... integration of Meteor is expected within 3 years.

We can't trust ADA-HAL timelines.

Mass produce MK2 which is still on paper? Even if GOI intends to... the mass production will begin when China will begin Inducting J-XX.

The additional 97 MK1A is on the path of cancelation.

F-35 is getting manufactured at 150/yr rate... and additional facilities are also coming up.
1. That is a UK Parliament report from January 2024. Test firing a missile vs certifying the same is different. Even Astra MK2 has been test fired from Su 30 MKI but isn't considered ready for operational use.

2. These are NOT HAL-ADA timelines but a sort of guesstimate based on their track record and delivery schedules/ guarantees of GE and LM.

3. Tejas MK2 is scheduled for a rollout late next year (October 2025) which is perfectly reasonable since project sanction was in September 2022 and prototypes take 36 months to build. First flight is in 2026.

IAF has commited to 100-120 Tejas MK2 (final numbers ~200) which will be need since Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 will reach retirement in mid 2030s.

The Tejas MK2 helps build the industrial pathway (GE F414 engines, MIDHANI titanium forgings, HAL Titanium 50000 ton press, etc) to ease the AMCA's production. It doesn't matter what China inducts since we are the ones playing catch up and not them and they are already nearing 6th generation platforms.

4. I really think this is too absurd to even entertain. IAF has issued a RFP to HAL for these 97 aircraft. The idea is to have 180-220 low end interceptors to replace Mig 21/Mig 23/Mig 27/Jaguar.

The plan was on hold due to the GE F404 engine delay which is now showing signs of getting resolved. The engine production line has restarted and by mid 2025 (March-May/June 2025) new GE F404 engines will start reaching IAF.

Even older GE F404 102/103 engines are available as 'reserve engines' by GE to deliver the Tejas MK1A to IAF and then swap out with new built GE F404 IN20 as available.

5. India is NOT a partner nation to the F 35 program. If your country's flag is not listed below then you are not a priority for deliveries.

images


However if Singapore and Czech Republic can get F 35s then India can atleast hope for vanilla F 35s but these won't arrive before 2030-2031.
 
NOT that sure: do slaves have choice between "be slaves & stay alive" and "die in war"?
How many times you see slaves-owners, if war did happen, die before slaves? Let alone it's these owners provoke the war.
Check Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam... ...
We can't compare ourselves to any of the above countries
Our case is very different
China and India mostly don't share common culture
Not we have been separated through any treaty nor agreement
We are 2 different entities with border dispute
Our fight is eminent and that fight will definitely impact other fronts of respective countries
Doesn't matter USA forces us to fight or situation forces us
We will have a conflict and that will define our survival in Himalayas and our dominance too
For that we need weapons
If prolonged war is the concern then we should ensure maximum damage to china and for that at current stage we require support
And coming to both the options that's on us to decide and it will depend on actions that we take today even if we become junior to America bcoz we are big country with a considerable wealth(by this I mean government not people) unlike their other Allies
 
Pardon me if I sound like arguing for sake of argue (I'm NOT!!).
But there is still difference in extent.
There are more countries also counting on China's market & industries. But not necessarily they turn to "slaves". Cases can be Japan, Australia, Vietnam, quite Europe countries, and even USA.
Simply putting "we have NO choice but can only choose 'slave' or 'die'" is just another way giving up seeking solutions.
- I admit: I'm NOT that qualified to suggest other alternatives. I'm simply refusing to accept that dilemma (no other alternatives).
-- Somehow off topic. Mod please feel free to remove this.
If china denies their industry and products The above mentioned nations will survive due their allies and existence of sufficient industrial power and technology except SEA countries
It may take time but they can sustain themselves
But we don't have that luxury
Our maximum working professional are dependent on IT services which is due to USA
Suppose they impose sanctions on us millions would lose their jobs with no other place to go it will create nightmare for our govt
My point was we are already very well entangled with USA and they hold sufficient power to dismantle us
If that's the case we shouldn't held ourselves back to import f-35 if it's feasible

U may be right and it's completely personal thinking so there can't arguments here
If so I am ending it here u may give ur opinion and I will respect it
Again as u said it's derailing the thread
 
The GOI must urgently push both the engine and airframe programs into a Manhattan Project-style effort. This has now become even more critical than the nuclear program. Developing our own 5th-generation platform, along with an indigenous engine, is the only viable path forward, anything else risks catastrophic defeat in a future conflict.

We must spare no expense, recruit global talent, reverse engineer technology if needed, and engage as many Indian companies as possible. Whatever it takes, this has to be done without delay.
 
Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

We have to think like we are playing Chess from both sides.
> Buy F-35 then 🇮🇳=>:basanti:in hands of 🇺🇸. :nono:⚠️🚨
> If plan to produce more Su-30MKI then compare price of Su-57 in ratio of their capabilities & explain Russia straight "you jet is not proper 5gen, so ask money accordingly" or else BYE! 🙏
> Absorb professionals as per skill into industry, govt. & private, with proper security, start work in 2 shifts - morning & afternoon, so double the speed of work. If people willing to work night shift for certain jobs, let them. Give shift allowances. Now people can't complain there is no job. So introduce performance based pay. Democracy, Socialism doesn't mean free salary by someone else income tax.
> Fast track Kaveri & JV engines R&D. Meanwhile explore using M-88 instead of F414.
> Think scientifically, not sentimentally. 4gen jets worldwide are like senior citizens. They can supplement for 1or2 decades till 6gen get IOC. The agile ones can still pose threat if they survive BVR. Su-30MKI can gun down LCA, MWF. LCA is like new MiG-21 of this era. MWF, Gripen, J-10 are on same level. meteor like Ramjet AAMs can be fired with their AESA radars but they'll also be shot down.
> Fast track AMCA & radically re-engineer it for 5.5gen in Mk1 itself.
> Make MWF & TEDBF stealthy.
> Fast track UCAV tech.
> Start R&D on AHCA (Fighter, Fighter-Bomber).
> Improve IADS/SAMs.
> Meanwhile till then India has to suffer consequences of lazyness, ignorance, arrogance, procrastination, if China attacks Ladakh &/or Arunachal Pradesh. Losses will be on both sides, probably resulting in stalemate &/or losing some territory. But it might trigger multi-front war for China also which can limit their attack on us.

Hence in daily life we all should think & contribute in our capacity & never discourage, stop, manipulate others. Some are operationally good but not conceptually, some are conceptually good but not operationally. (Industrial experience).
 
The GOI must urgently push both the engine and airframe programs into a Manhattan Project-style effort. This has now become even more critical than the nuclear program. Developing our own 5th-generation platform, along with an indigenous engine, is the only viable path forward, anything else risks catastrophic defeat in a future conflict.

We must spare no expense, recruit global talent, reverse engineer technology if needed, and engage as many Indian companies as possible. Whatever it takes, this has to be done without delay.
Sons of bihar think alike. I had a post exactly worded like this saved in draft but since you said it I don't need to.
Tbh I see no reason to show greater concern all of a sudden due the sixer launched by China. As of know we don't know its specifications and I doubt it would be remarkably above the specs of the 5 th gen fighter that they had before.

As for us what we are encountering now is a hiccup in supply chain, this exact situation should compel us to invest more in securing the supply chain. Kaveri needs to be put in the same priority as indian nuclear program and act as if our life depends upon it which in a way it does.
 
SPOILER/SARCASM:

BREAKING NEWS ⚠️🚨🔔🎙️📢📡📰📺
Photo pf another mysterious plane has leaked.

1735475323145.webp
:oops::rolleyes::eeek::shocked::wtfcat::wtf::whoa:
It looks apparently western. Astonishingly it also has 3 engines.
It is speculated that the viertical tails are for testing & safety & can be detached on ground.
USA may have finnaly revealed NGAD tech demonstrator. Many people are saying that this could be old X/Y series jet based on F-22 airframe to save money, or X/Y-FB-22. May be 3x F-119 engines were used, while real NGAD TD may have used 2x F-135 engines.
More pics are not available yet but bcoz the top hump looks like it is for cockpit, not for engine like in J-36, so the intake for middle engine lies beside the other intakes at same level. The wings may have been widened. It could look like following:

1735475660491.webp

NOTE: These are just simple edits in MS Paint. Hope you all had or having a good Sunday.
:troll::bplease::LOL::ROFLMAO::bump2::laugh::rockon: :sarcastic::facepalm2::facepalm4::doh:
 

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