Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[DumbPilot]

All of your questions are valid but can be addressed using just one word; TIME.
With time things improve my Guy

First of all this "burn through" thing is not exactly true and even if it's remotely then also a simple Faraday Cage can complete negate it.

Now coming to size and power.
• This is STIR radar from 1990s
View attachment 19945
A Cassegrain antenna of 1.2m diameter, a power consumption of 5kW to achieve an instrumented range of 36km for missiles type target in X-band.
The whole system weighs 2-3 tonnes.

• This is exMHR radar from 2024
View attachment 19946
A GaN AESA of dimensions 90x120x30cm, a power consumption of 2.5kW to achieve an instrumented range of 60km for low RCS targets in X-band.
The whole system weighs just 150kg.

Again, time

• this is AN/TPY-2 radar from 2000
View attachment 19947
Extremely capable X-band radar used for the THAAD system, can reportedly track targets beyond 3,000km. It's power requirement is 1.1MW at peak.
• this is Honeywell's turboshaft auxiliary power generator from 2024
View attachment 19948
This thing is very efficient, weighs less than 130kg but manages to generate 1MW of peak power.

By mounting it on a HALE platform who's last two letters stand for Long Endurance.
The already pretty old RQ-4 HALE UAVs managed to sustain 30+ hours of flight.

How are the aircrew going to deal with sleep, hunger, fatigue of 30+ hours of flight?

Here also I could have given you example of how modern SatCom antennas use a teeny tiny beam of radio waves with LPI characteristics to talk to a satellite above them, not a ground station instead of just emitting radio waves all around like WW2 antennas.

But instead, I'll ask you a simple question.
What is more likely to give away a plane's position because of its radio emissions; a multi kW AWACS radar or a single data-link?

lol @ faraday cage. the entire crux of the modern day fighter is to operate a platform that can utilize avionics and electronics as advanced as possible. There have been incidents(for example in NATO training exercises) where some AWACS operators thought they were being locked up by something not friendly, and sent a full power pulse to the fighter jet in question - the entire fire control radar was fried and the avionics dead.

The second point is that "burn through" is a real thing in electronic warfare - especially for defeating electronic jamming at long ranges. The power of the radar, in some cases, directly translates to the distance at which it can reliably get a range and bearing on the jamming aircraft.

The modern day AESA breakthrough is undeniable, but you still need radars in bigger sizes to actually perform anything at good distances(for AWACS, this extends to anywhere from 200-400 nautical miles, which is like some 500km+). The powerplant looks promising, so let's see how it pans out.

LPI technology is already being used in SATCOM/data-links for various planes and radars. However even if you have something like a FDMA/CDMA it still requires that your signal make it out alive in all the noise/jamming available in the modern day battlefield. What happens when you lose contact with your AWACS HALE?

The biggest point that you seem to be missing is that the AWACS is not just a plane with a bunch of dudes on it who detect other enemy planes. They're in charge of a BIG chunk of C2 operations on the air battlefield, which includes but is not limited to:
- Managing complex ATO(air tasking orders) like SEAD, DEAD, OCA, DCA, CAPs, ...
- Communication relays
- Electronic intelligence
- Cooperation with other aircrafts like JSTARs
- Battle management systems

As for crew fatigue: this is a non-factor. All AWACS crew, if on a long endurance mission, have secondary or tertiary crews. They can be swapped out.

Now your last point about multi KW AWACS radar: as you must know at this point, this LPI technology with AESA radars is also used on AWACS aircraft; and detection via RWR/passive scanners is a possibility only when the PRF and power used by the AWACS is high enough so that the enemy aircraft can actually get some meaningful radiation. I recommend searching about RWS/TWS/STT modes available on fighter aircraft radars - the AWACS thing is kind of similar.

 

[darkflame]

Have you checked the news recently?


View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1873000117315481885


View: https://x.com/DrSJaishankar/status/1872802352178360583

H.R.4312 - To enhance the eligibility of India for Foreign Military Sales and exports under the Arms Export Control Act.​

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4312/all-info

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872988641762656562

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872989462915105025

 

[vampyrbladez]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872988641762656562

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872989462915105025

With a Republican majority in US House, Senate and a Republican President, I expect this to go through if India makes a push for F 35.

 

[samsaptaka]

Missile program exists exactly because nobody would sell us those.

This arms embargo thing could happen in the coming years with deep state gunning for Gobi with their regime change protests, and the Russian going for a sequel of the USSR collapse/dissolution in the future.

The French, Jooz can be arm-twisted into complying and Uncle Sam already has embargo'd us for GE F404

The only counter argument for arms embargo is Bharat's dubious distinction of being the (((world's largest arms impoorter))), which will mean any such embargo would only be temporary.

It really is just better if we get some R&D program for a fighter jet engine with some existing foreign engine set as the performance "target" without it being openly (((linked))) to some actual fighter that is hawked to the <REDACTED>

This should be funded through some "strategic" budget like S4, S5 sub and the ICBM/missile development projects are, funding should be generous and continuous and infra like FTB and all must be domestically acquired.

I think it would be good idea to fund or bribe some right wing xtian senators and paki supporters in US congress to embargo all jet engine sales to Bharath from all NATO countries for atleast 20 yrs - that's the only way Kaveri is going to fet funding!

 

[samsaptaka]

View: https://x.com/HTT40PRASHANT/status/1872273914073854460

How true is this as its coming from prashant sir

There is no 'system' . Just chaotic democracy BS and piecemeal procurement to satisfy news media. If we had a system or a deep state we wouldn't be in this position

 

[Ayan Barat]

RWS/TWS/STT

Buddy, I also know all the jargons of different tracking mode in a radar.

Infact you talked about burn through

The second point is that "burn through" is a real thing in electronic warfare

And here I'd mentioned the same thing

3. "Burn-Through":
ECM pods are designed to jam radars atleast hundred kilometres away so they need to put in a lot of power to compensate for things like attention. A side-effect of this is the phenomenon called Burn-Through...when the missile closes in to within a certain range, the noise-to-signal ratio increases, making the jammer more vulnerable as its location becomes more apparent.

Every single day we're improving the SWaP of systems. Every single day somewhere someone is getting closer in miniaturising something. Each day we're finding new ways to do the work of humans using machines.




Same is for AWACS too; no matter how much you and I argue on its efficacy, throw jargon to prove our superiority in knowledge...it's just a matter time before we see more and UAV based systems appearing everywhere. It has already happened in other arenas, it'll happen in AWACS too.
Mark my words

It's unfortunate that we as a nation, as an air-force, as a MIC have failed to catch this train in time but this doesn't mean others are also lagging behind.
The writing's on the wall.

 

[FactsPlease]

It's better to be slaves rather die in war
Being slaves will ensure our survival atleast

NOT that sure: do slaves have choice between "be slaves & stay alive" and "die in war"?
How many times you see slaves-owners, if war did happen, die before slaves? Let alone it's these owners provoke the war.
Check Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam... ...

 

[FactsPlease]

And coming to slaves we are slaves in every other thing out there, entire IT industry stands on their mercy, we are net importer of most of the things, it's our bad luck that we are enemy with a country without whom our industries and market can't survive i.e china, we are dependent on every major foreign country for our defence and sadly we are interested to increase dependency

Pardon me if I sound like arguing for sake of argue (I'm NOT!!).
But there is still difference in extent.
There are more countries also counting on China's market & industries. But not necessarily they turn to "slaves". Cases can be Japan, Australia, Vietnam, quite Europe countries, and even USA.
Simply putting "we have NO choice but can only choose 'slave' or 'die'" is just another way giving up seeking solutions.
- I admit: I'm NOT that qualified to suggest other alternatives. I'm simply refusing to accept that dilemma (no other alternatives).
-- Somehow off topic. Mod please feel free to remove this.

 

[FactsPlease]

Okay so China created history by flying not one but two sixth gen fighter aircraft in public for the first time. IDK how our IAF sleeps peacefully at night after witnessing this much progress from an adversary.

TBH: IAF & HAL & MoD (incl DRDO) can sleep peacefully at night won't bother me.
It's those (the one?) who assign heads of these institutes that can sleep peacefully bothers me, truly...

Many people insist to urgently fund every program. I want to add: roll some heads, please, please, please... (at least show that you know the situation & you care!!)

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

Expand and must read...


View: https://x.com/writetake/status/1873239976831533538?t=AGah8cFJakMNzrBfav9p7Q&s=19

 

[shade2]

Have you checked the news recently?


View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1873000117315481885


View: https://x.com/DrSJaishankar/status/1872802352178360583

H.R.4312 - To enhance the eligibility of India for Foreign Military Sales and exports under the Arms Export Control Act.​

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4312/all-info

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872988641762656562

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872989462915105025

With a Republican majority in US House, Senate and a Republican President, I expect this to go through if India makes a push for F 35.

Will only believe this when i hear something official
Even then is it possible for contract to be signed and few deliveries to happen before Trump term is over?

Also usually Pentagon though powerless is "sweet" towards us but even they won't be comfortable because "India may steal F35 technology", so IDK what T&C will be applied to us for sale, doubt GoI will accept irrespective of Air Marshol tantrums.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Will only believe this when i hear something official
Even then is it possible for contract to be signed and few deliveries to happen before Trump term is over?

Also usually Pentagon though powerless is "sweet" towards us but even they won't be comfortable because "India may steal F35 technology", so IDK what T&C will be applied to us for sale, doubt GoI will accept irrespective of Air Marshol tantrums.

Option 1 : Import F 35

Lets say India negotiates (begs) US to allow purchase of 36 F 35 aircraft throughout 2025-26. Finally US agrees and in 2026-27 a deal is signed for ~$8 bn.

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage. Also, India will have ZERO access to IP and will need to reply on US contractors to service these aircraft.

The first aircraft will be delivered 4-6 years after the signing of the deal (2030-2031). Then the rest over the next two years (2032-2033).

Option 2 : Persist on AMCA

By comparison, AMCA rollout is scheduled for 2026, which is reasonable given titanium bulkhead cutting and other small scale part manufacturing started in 2022.

First flight, depending on how many subsystems are installed in the AMCA will be 2027-2028. Then add another 3 years of tests (weapon-radar integration, certification, flight envelope tests, manuals, troubleshooting, compatibility) and by 2030-31 you have a somewhat ready IOC capable fighter.

Another 2 years 2032-2033 you have a FOC capable AMCA. If we sign GE F414 engine deal in 2025 (hopefully) and it takes 2 years to build the facility while we import some GE F414 engines as part of the deal, then by 2027 facility is ready. By 2028 domestic assembly of GE F414 commences and by 2031-32 everything is in place for AMCA to be mass produced and inducted.

Conclusion :

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

 

[shade2]

In both cases, India won't receive a 5th generation fighter before 2031-32 at the earliest. Bear in mind that it will take another 2-3 years to have at least 2-3 operationally ready squadrons of the F 35/AMCA so ~2034.

India needs to produce more SU 30 MKI, mass produce Tejas MK2, finish the 180 Tejas MK1A and missile-radar max until the mid 2030s.

Thanks for providing timeline for both
Also hope somebody drills the bolded into the heads of decision makers in GoI as compared to the panik and lies peddled by dalals now about (((stop gap imports))) which won't appear before 2030 anyway

 

[Ayan Barat]

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage.

Not countering you in any way, just adding a point.

If indeed it's acquired then it'd be most probably a stop-gap measure to counter Chinese and (especially) Pakistani stealth jets. So we can assume that A2A should be the priority instead of A2G. And for A2A we already have AIM-132 and Meteor that we can fire without asking USA everytime before pulling the trigger.

Obviously strings would be attached because it's USA (INS Jalashwa) but atleast in pure air-dominance things won't be that bleak.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Not countering you in any way, just adding a point.

If indeed it's acquired then it'd be most probably a stop-gap measure to counter Chinese and (especially) Pakistani stealth jets. So we can assume that A2A should be the priority instead of A2G. And for A2A we already have AIM-132 and Meteor that we can fire without asking USA everytime before pulling the trigger.

Obviously strings would be attached because it's USA (INS Jalashwa) but atleast in pure air-dominance things won't be that bleak.

That's a fair point however we are talking about integrating Meteor (MBDA - UK/EU) and AIM 132 (MBDA - UK) onto an F 35 (US).

UK and Italy are working on integrating the AIM 132 and Meteor onto the F 35 by 2030 which means that India won't have the same option when signing a prospective deal in 2026-2027.

The Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning should receive additional UK-specific weapons “by the end of the decade”, the government said on 16 January.

Answering questions in the House of Commons, Minister of State at the Ministry of Defence (MoD) James Cartlidge said that, with the MBDA AIM-132 Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the RTX Paveway 4 precision-guided bomb already carried by the Lightning, the MBDA Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) and the Selected Precision Effects At Range (SPEAR) 3 air-to-surface munition will be available by 2030.

https://www.janes.com/osint-insight...e/f-35-to-get-meteor-spear-3-by-end-of-decade

Pakistan's J 35 will reach them in 2027 at the earliest (2-3 aircraft) and won't be combat capable until 2029-2030 because it's a J 31 derivative and you need supporting infrastructure to allow at least 1 squadron to have some kind of IOC capability.

It should never have been this close and we can thank IAF's 20 year old obsession with MMRCA/MRFA for this outcome.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

The deal will include US weapons like AIM 120 C7, JDAM, etc and WILL be subject to US rules and regulations regarding intended usage.

MBDA ASRAAM(Our NGCCM) has already been integrated... integration of Meteor is expected within 3 years.

We can't trust ADA-HAL timelines.

Mass produce MK2 which is still on paper? Even if GOI intends to... the mass production will begin when China will begin Inducting J-XX.

The additional 97 MK1A is on the path of cancelation.

F-35 is getting manufactured at 150/yr rate... and additional facilities are also coming up.

 

[705-Lira]

MBDA ASRAAM(Our NGCCM) has already been integrated... integration of Meteor is expected within 3 years.

We can't trust ADA-HAL timelines.

Mass produce MK2 which is still on paper? Even if GOI intends to... the mass production will begin when China will begin Inducting J-XX.

The additional 97 MK1A is on the path of cancelation.

F-35 is getting manufactured at 150/yr rate... and additional facilities are also coming up.

Lol, the 97 Tejas Mk1A isn't going to be cancelled.
Get a grip on your delusions.
The prototype of Tejas Mk2 is a work in progress, and any MRFA jet isn't going to come any sooner.

 

[vampyrbladez]

MBDA ASRAAM(Our NGCCM) has already been integrated... integration of Meteor is expected within 3 years.

We can't trust ADA-HAL timelines.

Mass produce MK2 which is still on paper? Even if GOI intends to... the mass production will begin when China will begin Inducting J-XX.

The additional 97 MK1A is on the path of cancelation.

F-35 is getting manufactured at 150/yr rate... and additional facilities are also coming up.

1. That is a UK Parliament report from January 2024. Test firing a missile vs certifying the same is different. Even Astra MK2 has been test fired from Su 30 MKI but isn't considered ready for operational use.

2. These are NOT HAL-ADA timelines but a sort of guesstimate based on their track record and delivery schedules/ guarantees of GE and LM.

3. Tejas MK2 is scheduled for a rollout late next year (October 2025) which is perfectly reasonable since project sanction was in September 2022 and prototypes take 36 months to build. First flight is in 2026.

IAF has commited to 100-120 Tejas MK2 (final numbers ~200) which will be need since Mig 29 and Mirage 2000 will reach retirement in mid 2030s.

The Tejas MK2 helps build the industrial pathway (GE F414 engines, MIDHANI titanium forgings, HAL Titanium 50000 ton press, etc) to ease the AMCA's production. It doesn't matter what China inducts since we are the ones playing catch up and not them and they are already nearing 6th generation platforms.

4. I really think this is too absurd to even entertain. IAF has issued a RFP to HAL for these 97 aircraft. The idea is to have 180-220 low end interceptors to replace Mig 21/Mig 23/Mig 27/Jaguar.

The plan was on hold due to the GE F404 engine delay which is now showing signs of getting resolved. The engine production line has restarted and by mid 2025 (March-May/June 2025) new GE F404 engines will start reaching IAF.

Even older GE F404 102/103 engines are available as 'reserve engines' by GE to deliver the Tejas MK1A to IAF and then swap out with new built GE F404 IN20 as available.

5. India is NOT a partner nation to the F 35 program. If your country's flag is not listed below then you are not a priority for deliveries.

However if Singapore and Czech Republic can get F 35s then India can atleast hope for vanilla F 35s but these won't arrive before 2030-2031.

 

[jaijaganath]

NOT that sure: do slaves have choice between "be slaves & stay alive" and "die in war"?
How many times you see slaves-owners, if war did happen, die before slaves? Let alone it's these owners provoke the war.
Check Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam... ...

We can't compare ourselves to any of the above countries
Our case is very different
China and India mostly don't share common culture
Not we have been separated through any treaty nor agreement
We are 2 different entities with border dispute
Our fight is eminent and that fight will definitely impact other fronts of respective countries
Doesn't matter USA forces us to fight or situation forces us
We will have a conflict and that will define our survival in Himalayas and our dominance too
For that we need weapons
If prolonged war is the concern then we should ensure maximum damage to china and for that at current stage we require support
And coming to both the options that's on us to decide and it will depend on actions that we take today even if we become junior to America bcoz we are big country with a considerable wealth(by this I mean government not people) unlike their other Allies

 

[jaijaganath]

Pardon me if I sound like arguing for sake of argue (I'm NOT!!).
But there is still difference in extent.
There are more countries also counting on China's market & industries. But not necessarily they turn to "slaves". Cases can be Japan, Australia, Vietnam, quite Europe countries, and even USA.
Simply putting "we have NO choice but can only choose 'slave' or 'die'" is just another way giving up seeking solutions.
- I admit: I'm NOT that qualified to suggest other alternatives. I'm simply refusing to accept that dilemma (no other alternatives).
-- Somehow off topic. Mod please feel free to remove this.

If china denies their industry and products The above mentioned nations will survive due their allies and existence of sufficient industrial power and technology except SEA countries
It may take time but they can sustain themselves
But we don't have that luxury
Our maximum working professional are dependent on IT services which is due to USA
Suppose they impose sanctions on us millions would lose their jobs with no other place to go it will create nightmare for our govt
My point was we are already very well entangled with USA and they hold sufficient power to dismantle us
If that's the case we shouldn't held ourselves back to import f-35 if it's feasible

U may be right and it's completely personal thinking so there can't arguments here
If so I am ending it here u may give ur opinion and I will respect it
Again as u said it's derailing the thread