Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[shade2]

Not countering you in any way, just adding a point.

If indeed it's acquired then it'd be most probably a stop-gap measure to counter Chinese and (especially) Pakistani stealth jets. So we can assume that A2A should be the priority instead of A2G. And for A2A we already have AIM-132 and Meteor that we can fire without asking USA everytime before pulling the trigger.

Obviously strings would be attached because it's USA (INS Jalashwa) but atleast in pure air-dominance things won't be that bleak.

I was just pondering over this (((stop gap measure))) jhumla that defence patrakars and the Genrols peddle to justify their import khori.
Contrast it with other reports saying the Chings are producing ~40 J-20s a year and already have like 300 let alone the 500+ numbers of their other non-stealth planes
Now they are developing 6th gen jets, they are adding a high power and fancy AWACS radar to their C-17 clone.
Their current stocks and yearly production far exceeds whatever we have even assuming AAAAH IM IMPOOORTING

So the air war is already lost, doesn't matter how much (((emergency procoorments stop gap measure))) they do.

Even with your ((( sanctioned 42 squadrons ))) they will still be winning in the numbers and even the tech game.

So we have only two plays one short term and the other long term

Short Term
Missile maxxx and Radar max, mass produce Pralay, Nirbhay other such missiles and their TELs and whatever other equipment they need, fast track Project Kusha missiles and radars and produce/acquire/fast-track more VL-SRSAM( A ground launch version needs to be made also ) Barak-8 launchers, SPYDER, Akash-NG, QRSAM etc and try to import or fast track the best radars possible

Long Term
Even by next year they must release good funding for AMCA, Tejas Mk2 and most importantly Kaveri development( perf target should be GE F414 and even physical dimensions ), some mechanism must be ensured to give consistent funding, Genrols and dalals must be kept out especially for Kaveri and they need to buy all the necessary infra like a Flying Test Bed and Wind Tunnels so that we don't have to run to foreign countries for testing

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

I don't know what IAF/DRDO genuises did during 2014-2024 that recently they woke up for Project Kusha.

Even if they were not confident then, should had initiated joint development with Israelis after all they splurged some 6-Billion. Atleast Israeli stuff works for the money spent. This is regarding Counter-Air.

As for Missiles, Design Optimization is missing big time. Every thing looks like Science Project. No proper Missile VLS Or TEL. Add on that they are using foreign trucks to haul them. Missiles maybe ready but only in Science Fair sense and not in Ready to Use sense.

 

[vampyrbladez]

It has begun :


View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1873402337806647567

Have you checked the news recently?


View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1873000117315481885


View: https://x.com/DrSJaishankar/status/1872802352178360583

H.R.4312 - To enhance the eligibility of India for Foreign Military Sales and exports under the Arms Export Control Act.​

https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/4312/all-info

 

[Azaad]

It has begun :


View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1873402337806647567

Frankly I'm of the opinion in spite of our age (here , I'm referring to people in their late 20's onwards which comprises a substantial chunk of the forum as opposed to the teens & people in their early to mid 20s , whom one can excuse , where in case of the former for their age & the latter for being at a stage in life where their PoV hasn't quite crystallised which in most cases happens once they reach their late 20s ) we haven't quite learnt to let go of knee jerk reactions.

Please note /vampyrbladez , I'm not targeting you with this observation but rather making a generic comment.

That the F-35 or the Su-57 may come to AI-25 is no guarantee of their being offered to India at least in case of the former or of the IAF's decision to procure them . Rather it could simply be a means to draw more eyeballs & footfalls to the exhibition , a way to boost its prestige & image given practically every nation worth its salt is nowadays hosting such events.

Regarding the entire issue of the "6th Gen " Chinese Aircrafts which made their first publically viewed flight & the discussion here over the past few days & pages which sometimes turned passionate & heated , everybody seems to believe in order to counter stealth we need more stealth. Yes that's one way to counter it but how about detection & tracking it ?

Has it occurred to people here that all those countries aiming for stealth be it the likes of countries like RoK or even Turkiye what to speak of the likes of the USA or China or even Russia may have a program to detect & track stealth , both passive & active with ways of neutralizing the active stealth ?

Can anybody with adequate knowledge elaborate on the Akashteer program of the IA which is to be layered with the IACCS of the IAF & the Trigun System of the IN ? Let me explain in brief why I believe this would probably be our silver bullet to combat at least the problem of stealth we face from Chinese platforms .

Years ago a handle on Strat Front , formerly Decklander on DFI to veterans here who recall him , spoke of how 4th Gen cell towers / radars could work as a grid in times of an emergency to triangulate the position of any object such that a grid could in theory be formed to operate on a pan country basis to generate detection & if I'm not mistaken tracking systems for such objects which in our case happens to be stealth fighters .

I've no clue what the range is but today we've , as in the world or in any case a few countries certainly do posses this technology which is probably much more of a prized secret as compared to stealth so much so that while you've reams of paper published online & offline on stealth you won't come across even a whisper on the topic.

Google Search

Scroll to the post of Quora & once on the page scroll down to the answer posted by the Quora bot by the name of Assistant . You'd discover something very very interesting.

 

[Ayan Barat]

...but how about detection & tracking it ?

Can anybody with adequate knowledge elaborate on the Akashteer program of the IA which is to be layered with the IACCS of the IAF & the Trigun System of the IN ? Let me explain in brief why I believe this would probably be our silver bullet to combat at least the problem of stealth we face from Chinese platforms .

Years ago a handle on Strat Front , formerly Decklander on DFI to veterans here who recall him , spoke of how 4th Gen cell towers / radars could work as a grid in times of an emergency to triangulate the position of any object such that a grid could in theory be formed to operate on a pan country basis to generate detection & if I'm not mistaken tracking systems for such objects which in our case happens to be stealth fighters .

I've no clue what the range is but today we've , as in the world or in any case a few countries certainly do posses this technology which is probably much more of a prized secret as compared to stealth so much so that while you've reams of paper published online & offline on stealth you won't come across even a whisper on the topic.

There are multiple ways in which one can detect a stealth fighter. These are just those that I can think of now, I'm sure others can remind me of more
• low frequency (or large wavelength) radars. Aviation stealth is achieved by optimising the platform against Ku/Ka/K/X frequencies as these are what you'd commonly find on seekers and fire control radars so use U/VHF
• acoustic sensors. Multiple high sensitivity microphones in an interferometer type set-up, coupled with advanced algorithm to pretty accurately guess the direction.
• multi-static radars. Stealth planes are typically optimised for stealth on just one side, so look from others.
• shift spectrum of IR. Cooled, staring arrays of LWIR cameras can rival small wavelength radars in terms of detecting stealth platforms.
• passive radars. The one you mentioned, making a "pond" by linking together all the TV, cell, radio towers and wheather stations so that if anything entered this "pond" you'd feel a disturbance on the surface.
• ELINT. A plane can turn off its radars but not radio waves emissions, things like altimeter also uses RF. Sensitive ELINT stations can detect this
• data fusion. Even a sipahi can use his smartphone to record clips of any planes and upload it on a semi-secure network. From where it'd get converted to attack vectors.
• satellites. We can both monitor their airbases 24*7 with high fidelity imagining satellites to look for movements and monitor our skies with multi-spectrum S/M/L-WIR satellites to look for exhaust plumes.

But as of now we've only completed the first step of a military kill chain; Find.
Find -> Fix -> Track -> Target -> Engage -> Assess
Even if we ignore the last step and assume that we've sufficient assets to deal with the second last step (Kusha)...we're still left with three steps. And these are where all the problems starts. Compared to the multiple solutions we've for first step, we've virtually nothing for these.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Frankly I'm of the opinion in spite of our age (here , I'm referring to people in their late 20's onwards which comprises a substantial chunk of the forum as opposed to the teens & people in their early to mid 20s , whom one can excuse , where in case of the former for their age & the latter for being at a stage in life where their PoV hasn't quite crystallised which in most cases happens once they reach their late 20s ) we haven't quite learnt to let go of knee jerk reactions.

Please note /vampyrbladez , I'm not targeting you with this observation but rather making a generic comment.

That the F-35 or the Su-57 may come to AI-25 is no guarantee of their being offered to India at least in case of the former or of the IAF's decision to procure them . Rather it could simply be a means to draw more eyeballs & footfalls to the exhibition , a way to boost its prestige & image given practically every nation worth its salt is nowadays hosting such events.

Regarding the entire issue of the "6th Gen " Chinese Aircrafts which made their first publically viewed flight & the discussion here over the past few days & pages which sometimes turned passionate & heated , everybody seems to believe in order to counter stealth we need more stealth. Yes that's one way to counter it but how about detection & tracking it ?

Has it occurred to people here that all those countries aiming for stealth be it the likes of countries like RoK or even Turkiye what to speak of the likes of the USA or China or even Russia may have a program to detect & track stealth , both passive & active with ways of neutralizing the active stealth ?

Can anybody with adequate knowledge elaborate on the Akashteer program of the IA which is to be layered with the IACCS of the IAF & the Trigun System of the IN ? Let me explain in brief why I believe this would probably be our silver bullet to combat at least the problem of stealth we face from Chinese platforms .

Years ago a handle on Strat Front , formerly Decklander on DFI to veterans here who recall him , spoke of how 4th Gen cell towers / radars could work as a grid in times of an emergency to triangulate the position of any object such that a grid could in theory be formed to operate on a pan country basis to generate detection & if I'm not mistaken tracking systems for such objects which in our case happens to be stealth fighters .

I've no clue what the range is but today we've , as in the world or in any case a few countries certainly do posses this technology which is probably much more of a prized secret as compared to stealth so much so that while you've reams of paper published online & offline on stealth you won't come across even a whisper on the topic.

Google Search

Scroll to the post of Quora & once on the page scroll down to the answer posted by the Quora bot by the name of Assistant . You'd discover something very very interesting.

The idea of countering stealth with more stealth lies in mirror deployment. Pakistan does a Pulwama, we do a Balakot. If Pakistan has J 35, we will discard an aerial action and Pakistan gets emboldened to do a bigger terror attack.

I was the one who clarified that regardless of AMCA or F 35, we aren't getting a stealth fighter in IAF livery before 2030-2031. Thus missile-radar maxing (kill chain optimization) is key.

India is now running to Russia for the Voronezh radar system and accelerating deployment of Project Kusha to counter stealth defensively.

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India is on the verge of signing a significant $4 billion defence deal with Russia for the Voronezh radar system, a cutting-edge early-warning radar with extensive threat-detection capabilities. The system, expected to strengthen Indias air defence and surveillance in Asia and the Indian Ocean...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

 

[RocketMan]

The idea of countering stealth with more stealth lies in mirror deployment. Pakistan does a Pulwama, we do a Balakot. If Pakistan has J 35, we will discard an aerial action and Pakistan gets emboldened to do a bigger terror attack.

I was the one who clarified that regardless of AMCA or F 35, we aren't getting a stealth fighter in IAF livery before 2030-2031. Thus missile-radar maxing (kill chain optimization) is key.

India is now running to Russia for the Voronezh radar system and accelerating deployment of Project Kusha to counter stealth defensively.

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India is on the verge of signing a significant $4 billion defence deal with Russia for the Voronezh radar system, a cutting-edge early-warning radar with extensive threat-detection capabilities. The system, expected to strengthen Indias air defence and surveillance in Asia and the Indian Ocean...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Voronezh early warning radar systems are good for defensive purposes. What we also need is full funding & collaboration to fast track AMCA & Kaveri .

 

[Azaad]

There are multiple ways in which one can detect a stealth fighter. These are just those that I can think of now, I'm sure others can remind me of more
• low frequency (or large wavelength) radars. Aviation stealth is achieved by optimising the platform against Ku/Ka/K/X frequencies as these are what you'd commonly find on seekers and fire control radars so use U/VHF
• acoustic sensors. Multiple high sensitivity microphones in an interferometer type set-up, coupled with advanced algorithm to pretty accurately guess the direction.
• multi-static radars. Stealth planes are typically optimised for stealth on just one side, so look from others.
• shift spectrum of IR. Cooled, staring arrays of LWIR cameras can rival small wavelength radars in terms of detecting stealth platforms.
• passive radars. The one you mentioned, making a "pond" by linking together all the TV, cell, radio towers and wheather stations so that if anything entered this "pond" you'd feel a disturbance on the surface.
• ELINT. A plane can turn off its radars but not radio waves emissions, things like altimeter also uses RF. Sensitive ELINT stations can detect this
• data fusion. Even a sipahi can use his smartphone to record clips of any planes and upload it on a semi-secure network. From where it'd get converted to attack vectors.
• satellites. We can both monitor their airbases 24*7 with high fidelity imagining satellites to look for movements and monitor our skies with multi-spectrum S/M/L-WIR satellites to look for exhaust plumes.

But as of now we've only completed the first step of a military kill chain; Find.
Find -> Fix -> Track -> Target -> Engage -> Assess
Even if we ignore the last step and assume that we've sufficient assets to deal with the second last step (Kusha)...we're still left with three steps. And these are where all the problems starts. Compared to the multiple solutions we've for first step, we've virtually nothing for these.

Which is the reason I began by asking someone in the know to elaborate on the layering of the Akashteer system of the IA with the IN 's Trigun & the IAF's IACCS systems .

If detection was all that mattered the L band radar can already do it. I've a gut feeling we've gone well past detection to tracking stealth.

The kill chain could consist of various vectors including Kusha. MKI & Rafale armed with Astra -3 receiving inputs from the IACCS supplemented with a potential combination of some among the plethora of elements you've described , with a range of 200+ kms & a NEZ of say 50 kms is also a part of the same kill chain

 

[Azaad]

The idea of countering stealth with more stealth lies in mirror deployment. Pakistan does a Pulwama, we do a Balakot. If Pakistan has J 35, we will discard an aerial action and Pakistan gets emboldened to do a bigger terror attack.

I was the one who clarified that regardless of AMCA or F 35, we aren't getting a stealth fighter in IAF livery before 2030-2031. Thus missile-radar maxing (kill chain optimization) is key.

India is now running to Russia for the Voronezh radar system and accelerating deployment of Project Kusha to counter stealth defensively.

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India is on the verge of signing a significant $4 billion defence deal with Russia for the Voronezh radar system, a cutting-edge early-warning radar with extensive threat-detection capabilities. The system, expected to strengthen Indias air defence and surveillance in Asia and the Indian Ocean...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Voronezh is our OTHR for BMD in order to detect launch of such missile especially CMs & Hypersonic Missiles like the one we just tested apart from BMs for the second or third phase of our BMD development & deployments .


View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1871632045702816182

THREAD !

This thread should serve a good primer for that purpose.

If we wanted stealth we could've always gone in for a combination of Russian Rezonans-NE & Nebo M & you don't eliminate threats from 6000 kms away not with our capabilities but you detect & track them from that far.

 

[shade2]

The idea of countering stealth with more stealth lies in mirror deployment. Pakistan does a Pulwama, we do a Balakot. If Pakistan has J 35, we will discard an aerial action and Pakistan gets emboldened to do a bigger terror attack.

I was the one who clarified that regardless of AMCA or F 35, we aren't getting a stealth fighter in IAF livery before 2030-2031. Thus missile-radar maxing (kill chain optimization) is key.

India is now running to Russia for the Voronezh radar system and accelerating deployment of Project Kusha to counter stealth defensively.

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India plans to buy this massive $4 billion wall-like radar to neutralise Chinese threats from 6,000 km away

India is on the verge of signing a significant $4 billion defence deal with Russia for the Voronezh radar system, a cutting-edge early-warning radar with extensive threat-detection capabilities. The system, expected to strengthen Indias air defence and surveillance in Asia and the Indian Ocean...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Paki not going to get stealth jets so soon, we need to build right now for missile-radar maxxxing vs China like you have suggested for war within this decade.

By 2030s atleast something will be in production hopefully like Tejas mk2.

Don't think imports will happen but even if it does there will be MRFA multi vendor tender, trials, price negotiations and other political/media drama that will stretch into years unless they go the F16 jaziya for F35 route

 

[Ayan Barat]

Everyone here have suggested what they think should be the best course of action against the numerical as well as technological superiority of PLAF. And to be honest most of the ideas like investment in stealth detection capabilities, making a SAM-Porcupine or redesigning AMCA indeed holds value.

But sometimes it's best to explore the unorthodox route when you're in a dire situation.

Spoiler: Like praying to Allah...

 

[lexCommando]

chinese destroyed our airforce without even doing anything... not like it was much of a deterrent anyways

 

[Suryavanshi]

chinese destroyed our airforce without even doing anything... not like it was much of a deterrent anyways

Tbh pant shitting Youthiya are crumbling under imaginary might of chinese 6th Gen.
If it's about deploying a working fuselage than even Turkiye has deployed its 5 th gen.

Does it Mean anything?

I am sure HAL can shit out a prototype attach two sukhoi engines and call it 5th Gen to appease youthiyas but.

If you were following Amca thread than you would have know
We have worked ok Radar absorbent paint and that too has been done by multiple colleges.

Aerospace Engineering | IIT Kanpur

www.iitk.ac.in

https://www.spsnavalforces.com/experts-speak/?id=568&h=Stealth-Vehicles
IIT mandi

Radar absorbent material for internal weapon bay lining ( IIT Kharag)

Serpentile intake.




Canopy will be sourced indigenously

ADA Invites Domestic Suppliers for Stretched Acrylic Canopy Systems for AMCA Fighter Jet

India Advances Development of Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft with Tender for Critical Canopy Systems

www.ssbcrack.com

We need to get the old AMCA archive back so that youthiyas can learn how far we have come.

 

[shade2]

Area denial is how India can counter China's 300 stealth fighters, Pakistan's possible J-35s

China’s rapid military modernisation is altering the regional power balance to the detriment of India’s security. India needs to pivot toward a multi-domain defence strategy.

theprint.in

Article from Yusuf from DFI, has most of the missile-radar-maxxing we're discussing here plus some other stuff but surprisingly even he agrees on the A2/AD maxxing, was expecting Vishnu Som style shilling for emergency procoor of F-35 and getting into FCAS program and all

Looks like he also lurks here

 

[Fatalis]

View: https://x.com/Manish_K_Jha1/status/1873735497509740973

 

[vampyrbladez]

Price for GE-414 engine deal for Indigenous LCA Mark 2 fighter jets likely to go up

Amid delays in the supply of the engines for the Light Combat emerging that the price of the deal with the American firm for the GE-414 engines is likely to go up, sources said.

The price of the deal for the GE-414 engines is now likely to go up in view of the ongoing discussions between the two sides, sources told ANI.

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/price-for-ge-414-engine-deal-for-indigenous-lca-mark-2-fighter-jets-likely-to-go-up20241230222417/

 

[Charlie]

Expand and must read...


View: https://x.com/writetake/status/1873239976831533538?t=AGah8cFJakMNzrBfav9p7Q&s=19

Well he is the cheer leader of drdo and HAL, first thing to do is stop giving them god like status. I see him treating them as they are something out of this world

Have you ever seen a Lockheed Martin employee getting so much media coverage?

Dilute HAL among the private industry and defund the drdo and just bare the expense of R&D of private companies, it won’t give a solution overnight but within 2 decades they will be almost similar to other aviation industries

 

[shade2]

Well he is the cheer leader of drdo and HAL, first thing to do is stop giving them god like status. I see him treating them as they are something out of this world

Have you ever seen a Lockheed Martin employee getting so much media coverage?

Dilute HAL among the private industry and defund the drdo and just bare the expense of R&D of private companies, it won’t give a solution overnight but within 2 decades they will be almost similar to other aviation industries

Dhandhos will butcher them and sell the pieces separately.
This private sector deep-throating needs to stop.

Dhandhos don't want to, and will not lead the charge of domestic defense development and production.
Maybe at one point they can do for production but not for development.

Good guy private sector folks like Kalyani have tried both development and production with their artillery systems but (((Jernails))) still want imported Jewish cannons toh kya kare?

Eventually all private cos, including good guy ones like Kalyani will give up thanks the Jernail and Air Marshlol bullshit.

Lots of such shilling goes on in the halls of power also about ((( defund DRDO ))), ((( "reform" DRDO ))), ((( sell HAL ))) and it seems to have the ear of the decision-makers, all blame is heaped on DRDO HAL and other DPSUs but nobody has the stones to call out the Jernails and Air Marshlols for their duplicity and schemes.

 

[Charlie]

Dhandhos will butcher them and sell the pieces separately.
This private sector deep-throating needs to stop.

Dhandhos don't want to, and will not lead the charge of domestic defense development and production.
Maybe at one point they can do for production but not for development.

Good guy private sector folks like Kalyani have tried both development and production with their artillery systems but (((Jernails))) still want imported Jewish cannons toh kya kare?

Eventually all private cos, including good guy ones like Kalyani will give up thanks the Jernail and Air Marshlol bullshit.

Lots of such shilling goes on in the halls of power also about ((( defund DRDO ))), ((( "reform" DRDO ))), ((( sell HAL ))) and it seems to have the ear of the decision-makers, all blame is heaped on DRDO HAL and other DPSUs but nobody has the stones to call out the Jernails and Air Marshlols for their duplicity and schemes.

Keep on getting new dates then, if you think anything will change in PSU it will not, now I not blaming the talent, most of the guys are very talented and will be swooped up by private industry but the culture in there is just not changing.

If you think TEJAS mk1 is just being delayed because of GE, then they are taking you for a ride, it’s one of the problems not the only problem.

Well of course all blame is not on PSU and there is user issues as well but you have to start from somewhere.

kickbacks are everywhere in some form or other you just need to equip Indian private industry enough to do that for generals to prefer them.

This is something no one will say openly but will end up happening

 

[Bleh]

Committee Evaluating Fighter Jet Acquisition May Recommend Additional Rafale Orders – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org